And again I want to say well done to Paul for finally publishing, and for Mike Williams for the herculean job of editing. The story is all there in its strange and confusing shape, but it just flows so much faster and with a few less red herrings. It now gives the sense of just being a taste of a vaster and more wild story underneath, which is I think what it should be.
And I'm honoured that my name is in the postscript too, among others of us from the forum (and yours too, Jan).
Would it be rude to say that I noticed a few minor copy errors? Things like Chapter 70 being a little adrift in the text without a proper header, and a few cases of quotations not being bolded, missing words, etc? Is it possible to create "patches" to Amazon books, or is the text pretty much locked in stone at this point? If so, it's no big deal (given how many walls the Universe seemed to throw up at the last minute, I don't want to add more) but if there is ever a chance for a reprint I'd be happy to help.
Also, a few of the "Alice in Wonderland" quotations are definitely not from the Lewis Carroll original. I suspect they might be from the 2010 TIm Burton film. I was obsessed with the Alice books as a nerdy kid and have a copy of Martin Gardner's The Annotated Alice, so these minor details jump out at me. I guess I can live with Alice quotes which are not from "our" Alice as adding to the "parallel universe" atmosphere...
I find myself wondering again just what "Morgan" meant by "The Caroline Group", since he does seem to use the term rather like "The Brethren of the Rosy Cross" was used in the 1600s, than as an actually-existing organization.
Regards, Nate
I finished reading my copy tonight!
I finished reading my copy tonight!
Going on a journey, somewhere far out east
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
Re: I finished reading my copy tonight!
Some Morgan quotes late in the book that jumped out at me on this reading:
I guess if I were to follow this line of thinking, I'd suggest that for Morgan, "The Caroline Group" was perhaps not an organization in the usual sense (a Masonic splinter faction, a spy ring, an industrial chamber of commerce etc) but just an affiliation of like-minded individuals. I think I feel a lot more comfortable with the idea of such a Group than one which was an actual organized society armed with science-fiction weapons and a Plan to do things to the world.
And this one:
But why would these things be as big a mystery to even Morgan as they were to Paul? Wasn't Morgan the one telling most of this story? Wasn't he one of the innermost of the inner circle of the need-to-know clique even in the so-secret-it's-not-even-classified world?
Or was Morgan too on the outside looking in - just like everyone else? If so, is there even an "inside" to be looking into, and where would it be? Especially since we're talking about fusion reactors, not ghosts and angels?
Regards, Nate
This definitely seems to be describing what I would call an "esoteric" worldview, one that is comfortable with the existence of invisible worlds and invisible people. It's a worldview I lean towards (not least because of my late friend, the Reverend Michael Cocks, who re-introduced me to the after-life studies community in the mid-2000s - right around the same time I discovered the Parallel Universe forum).The Caroline Group is worldwide in its scope.
The fabric of its membership is made up of folks who speak universal languages, not just the spoken tongue. Math. Music. The Arts. The message of the core group can more easily be discovered in those other forms, and communication comes easier to the humans who seem to have a more creative nature.
I guess if I were to follow this line of thinking, I'd suggest that for Morgan, "The Caroline Group" was perhaps not an organization in the usual sense (a Masonic splinter faction, a spy ring, an industrial chamber of commerce etc) but just an affiliation of like-minded individuals. I think I feel a lot more comfortable with the idea of such a Group than one which was an actual organized society armed with science-fiction weapons and a Plan to do things to the world.
And this one:
The part about "secret" vs "classified" I think I understand, if I'm not assuming too much. That the "Caroline group" as a loose collection of industrialists who believed in Townsend's spookier ideas might have backed technologies they thought were important for the world's future (like potentially the Fusor) but were afraid to release those technologies to the military or governments in case they caused damage to the world like the atomic bomb did. I can almost see that being a thing that could happen. And so they would be "secret" but certainly NOT "classified" because feeding that information into the military system was not an option. For one reason, because the Group were afraid of the very real threat of Communist infiltration of US/UK intelligence, but I'd like to think they were also a little bit afraid of good old American capitalism as well. If they weren't afraid of that, then they should have been.I don't know how you are going to write about this. We are getting to the core of some very secret stuff. I do not use the word "classified" for reasons I believe you understand now.
I'll leave it at that for when you feel up to it. We have to feel our way through this, Paul. I am sure that we are doing the right thing and that we are in the right place.
Beyond that, this is as big a mystery to me as it is to you. I suggest we just take things slowly and methodically and give the "inspiration" a chance to guide our paths.
But why would these things be as big a mystery to even Morgan as they were to Paul? Wasn't Morgan the one telling most of this story? Wasn't he one of the innermost of the inner circle of the need-to-know clique even in the so-secret-it's-not-even-classified world?
Or was Morgan too on the outside looking in - just like everyone else? If so, is there even an "inside" to be looking into, and where would it be? Especially since we're talking about fusion reactors, not ghosts and angels?
Regards, Nate
Going on a journey, somewhere far out east
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
- Paul Schatzkin
- The White Rabbit
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 12:50 am
Re: I finished reading my copy tonight!
And away we go...
No, not at all. But I'd appreciate it if you'd gather 'em up in an email. I encourage anybody who finds goofs to let me know. I'll round up as many as I can and modify the file, but Ingram charges me $25 every time I upload a new file so I should get as much as I can in the next upload.
Thank you, Nate, for making it to the end. That encourages me to think that others will, as well.
--PS
I am pleased that it 'passes muster' with you... I'm getting good feedback elsewhere as well.natecull wrote: ↑Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:44 am And again I want to say well done to Paul for finally publishing, and for Mike Williams for the herculean job of editing. The story is all there in its strange and confusing shape, but it just flows so much faster and with a few less red herrings. It now gives the sense of just being a taste of a vaster and more wild story underneath, which is I think what it should be.
I just hope nobody feels offended if they were left out.And I'm honoured that my name is in the postscript too, among others of us from the forum (and yours too, Jan).
Would it be rude to say that I noticed a few minor copy errors?
No, not at all. But I'd appreciate it if you'd gather 'em up in an email. I encourage anybody who finds goofs to let me know. I'll round up as many as I can and modify the file, but Ingram charges me $25 every time I upload a new file so I should get as much as I can in the next upload.
Hmm... I dunno about that. I don't have a copy of the 'original' (who do you think I am, Eldridge Johnson??). I lifted all the quotes from The Definitive Illustrated Editions published in 1992 by Books of Wonder / William Morrow & Co., Inc. New York. I'm quite certain I didn't lift anything from the Tim Burton movie. One ever watched that once, didn't care much for it.Also, a few of the "Alice in Wonderland" quotations are definitely not from the Lewis Carroll original. I suspect they might be from the 2010 TIm Burton film.
Yeah, well, there's a whole lot to wonder about that, for sure.I find myself wondering again just what "Morgan" meant by "The Caroline Group", since he does seem to use the term rather like "The Brethren of the Rosy Cross" was used in the 1600s, than as an actually-existing organization.
Thank you, Nate, for making it to the end. That encourages me to think that others will, as well.
--PS
Paul Schatzkin, author of 'The Man Who Mastered Gravity' https://amz.run/6afz
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It's "a multigenerational project." What's your hurry?
.
"We will just sail away from the Earth, as easily as this boat pushed away from the dock" - TTB
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It's "a multigenerational project." What's your hurry?
.
"We will just sail away from the Earth, as easily as this boat pushed away from the dock" - TTB
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- Posts: 1
- Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:59 pm
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Re: I finished reading my copy tonight!
I’m about a quarter way through and can’t put it down!
I will comment further upon completion but my initial response:
1. If someone was to write a book about a fictional character whose life thrust him into contact with the key events, people, that stick out in the UFO conundrum then this feels like it.
2. I find myself drifting between ‘this is fascinating’ and ‘you’ve gotta be kidding me’.
Must stop now, I’ve a book to read
I will comment further upon completion but my initial response:
1. If someone was to write a book about a fictional character whose life thrust him into contact with the key events, people, that stick out in the UFO conundrum then this feels like it.
2. I find myself drifting between ‘this is fascinating’ and ‘you’ve gotta be kidding me’.
Must stop now, I’ve a book to read
- Paul Schatzkin
- The White Rabbit
- Posts: 166
- Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 12:50 am
Re: I finished reading my copy tonight!
Hello Glyn, welcome and thanks for posting.
--P
I'm sure you're familiar with the disclaimer that opens a lot of movies:" Based on a True Story." Several years ago there was a movie released called American Hustle – a very high profile release with stars like Christian Bale, Bradley Cooper, my Adams and Jennifer Lawrence – about the ABSCAM scandals in the 70s. That movie started with a disclaimer, "Some Of This Actually Happened." I have always felt that my book should begin with a similar disclaimer.Glyn OConnell wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 4:40 pm. 1. If someone was to write a book about a fictional character whose life thrust him into contact with the key events, people, that stick out in the UFO conundrum then this feels like it.
Welcome to my world. Why else do you think I went screaming out of the room with my hair on fire back in 2009 ???2. I find myself drifting between ‘this is fascinating’ and ‘you’ve gotta be kidding me’.
--P
Paul Schatzkin, author of 'The Man Who Mastered Gravity' https://amz.run/6afz
.
It's "a multigenerational project." What's your hurry?
.
"We will just sail away from the Earth, as easily as this boat pushed away from the dock" - TTB
.
It's "a multigenerational project." What's your hurry?
.
"We will just sail away from the Earth, as easily as this boat pushed away from the dock" - TTB
Re: I finished reading my copy tonight!
Curiouser and curiouser! I will go back and reread the book very carefully and crosscheck all the Alice quotations. I was getting the weirdest sense of an actual parallel universe from them, since I'm a bit of an Alice-head. Will let you know my findings. If I've fallen into a Mandela Effect universe fork I will be very annoyed (and will immediately go check on how "Berenstxin Bears" are spelled here).Paul Schatzkin wrote:I lifted all the quotes from The Definitive Illustrated Editions published in 1992 by Books of Wonder / William Morrow & Co., Inc. New York. I'm quite certain I didn't lift anything from the Tim Burton movie
Yep, that's the Townsend Brown material all right.Paul Schatzkin wrote:Welcome to my world. Why else do you think I went screaming out of the room with my hair on fire back in 2009 ???
I guess I'm lucky in that I hit the "screaming with my hair on fire" event horizon back in the 1980s as a young teen and have been dealing with it ever since. "This can't be right, can it? How does the existence of any of this fit in with real recorded science and history?"
Nate
Going on a journey, somewhere far out east
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
Re: I finished reading my copy tonight!
Okay! Skimmed for Alice quotes. With the Gutenberg editions of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through The Looking Glass, here's how they compare.
Wonderland: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/11 ... mages.html
Looking Glass: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/12/12-h/12-h.htm
1. Preface: Down the Rabbit Hole
2. A Bitter Pill: Notes from the Rabbit Hole #1
3. A Different Well (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #2)
4. "He Made Things Up" (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #3)
5. A Pineapple and A Pea (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #4)
6. Gravity & Electricity, Space & Time (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #5)
7. A Deeper Draft Vessel (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #6)
8. A Deeper Draft (Redux) (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #7)
9. Never Heard of the Guy (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #8)
10. Shadow Trails (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #9)
11. Introduction to Part 2: Black
So sorry about that but it appears that whatever your 1992 book is, it is not a faithful translation. It has mildly abridged Lewis Carroll's original text into modern style in some places, and has added completely original and bizarre interpolations in others, such as making up a completely new poem with plot elements - a prophecy about Alice "returning" to Wonderland? - never even hinted at in the original.
This is such a startling and odd thing to happen, however, that one might go "full woo" and wonder if there's any synchronistic message here that the universe is trying to send? After all, the first "made up" quote appearing in the chapter "He Made Things Up" - what's the odds of that?
Regards, Nate
Wonderland: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/11 ... mages.html
Looking Glass: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/12/12-h/12-h.htm
1. Preface: Down the Rabbit Hole
Wonderland Chapter IIn another moment, down went Alice after the rabbit - never once considering how in the world she would get out again.
Not quite literal but a very close paraphrase.In another moment down went Alice after it, never once considering how in the world she was to get out again.
2. A Bitter Pill: Notes from the Rabbit Hole #1
Wonderland Chapter VII"Have you guessed the riddle yet?" The Hatter said, turning to Alice again.
"No, I give up," Alice replied. "What's the answer?"
"I haven't the slightest idea," said the Hatter.
"Nor I," said the March Hare.
Alice sighed wearily. "I think you might do something better with the time," she said," than wasting it asking riddles that have no answers."
Also very close but not quite exact.“Have you guessed the riddle yet?” the Hatter said, turning to Alice again.
“No, I give it up,” Alice replied: “what’s the answer?”
“I haven’t the slightest idea,” said the Hatter.
“Nor I,” said the March Hare.
Alice sighed wearily. “I think you might do something better with the time,” she said, “than waste it in asking riddles that have no answers.”
3. A Different Well (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #2)
Wonderland Chapter II"How queer everything is to-day! And yesterday things went on just as usual. I wonder if I've been changed in the night? Let me think: *was* I the same when I got up this morning?"
An exact quote.How queer everything is to-day! And yesterday things went on just as usual. I wonder if I’ve been changed in the night? Let me think: was I the same when I got up this morning?
4. "He Made Things Up" (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #3)
Not only does this quote not appear, but even the word "imagination" does not appear in the text of either Alice's Adventures in Wonderland or Through The Looking Glass."Imagination is the only weapon in the war with reality."
5. A Pineapple and A Pea (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #4)
Not only does this quote not appear, but the word sequence "find the way" does not appear in the text of either Alice's Adventures in Wonderland or Through The Looking Glass."Only a few find the way, some don't recognize it when they do - some... don't ever want to."
6. Gravity & Electricity, Space & Time (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #5)
Not only does this quote not appear, but neither the word sequences "not crazy" nor "my reality" appear in the text of either Alice's Adventures in Wonderland or Through The Looking Glass."I am not crazy; my reality is just different from yours."
7. A Deeper Draft Vessel (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #6)
Not only does this poem not appear, but neither the word sequences "day becomes" nor "home to" nor "clock strikes" nor "darkest hour" appear in the text of either Alice's Adventures in Wonderland or Through The Looking Glass.When the day becomes the night and the sky becomes the sea
when the clock strikes heavy and there's no time for tea;
and in our darkest hour, before my final rhyme
she will come home to Wonderland
and turn back the hands of time.
8. A Deeper Draft (Redux) (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #7)
Wonderland Chapter IV"It was much pleasanter at home" thought poor Alice, "when one wasn't always growing larger or smaller, and being ordered about by mice and rabbits. I almost wish I hadn't gone down that rabbit-hole - and yet - and yet - it's rather curious, you know, this sort of life!"
An exact quote.“It was much pleasanter at home,” thought poor Alice, “when one wasn’t always growing larger and smaller, and being ordered about by mice and rabbits. I almost wish I hadn’t gone down that rabbit-hole—and yet—and yet—it’s rather curious, you know, this sort of life!
9. Never Heard of the Guy (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #8)
Not only does this quote not appear, but the word sequence "all there" does not appear in the text of either Alice's Adventures in Wonderland or Through The Looking Glass."You may have noticed, I'm not all there myself."
10. Shadow Trails (Notes from the Rabbit Hole #9)
Wonderland Chapter VI:"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cheshire Cat: We're all mad here. I'm mad, you're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
An exact quote.“But I don’t want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked.
“Oh, you can’t help that,” said the Cat: “we’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.”
“How do you know I’m mad?” said Alice.
“You must be,” said the Cat, “or you wouldn’t have come here.”
11. Introduction to Part 2: Black
Wonderland Chapter I"Alice waited for a few minutes to see if she would shrink any further: She felt a little nervous about this; "for it might end, you know," said Alice to herself, "in my going out altogether, like a candle." And she tried to fancy what the flame of a candle looks like after the candle is blown out, for she could not remember having ever seen such a thing."
A very close paraphrase.First, however, she waited for a few minutes to see if she was going to shrink any further: she felt a little nervous about this; “for it might end, you know,” said Alice to herself, “in my going out altogether, like a candle. I wonder what I should be like then?” And she tried to fancy what the flame of a candle is like after the candle is blown out, for she could not remember ever having seen such a thing.
So sorry about that but it appears that whatever your 1992 book is, it is not a faithful translation. It has mildly abridged Lewis Carroll's original text into modern style in some places, and has added completely original and bizarre interpolations in others, such as making up a completely new poem with plot elements - a prophecy about Alice "returning" to Wonderland? - never even hinted at in the original.
This is such a startling and odd thing to happen, however, that one might go "full woo" and wonder if there's any synchronistic message here that the universe is trying to send? After all, the first "made up" quote appearing in the chapter "He Made Things Up" - what's the odds of that?
Regards, Nate
Going on a journey, somewhere far out east
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease