A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
Oh, I have heard the word Trickfox. I also understand that there are conferences every year held on the subject. I believe that Paul has even attended one or two. What are you actually asking here? Linda
I'm asking if anyone else thinks we should worry less about national politics and more about international politics and even -what EXOPOLITICS could be like in comparison to all this right/left stuff.
The problem is that even the word "EXO-Politics" is perhaps malintepreted. It's the same problem I see with "first contact/awareness" there is a symetry if you are listening for it, but like all things it depends on your perspective.
This is my first "multi-generational project" Linda, so I'm just now getting comfortable with life and hapiness.
Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful response .
( WAIT, AMALIE Just because I express reservation about jumping on the project that you are promoting does not mean that I think it is a poor idea. It just hasn't been at the top of my list where with you it certainly seems part of your major focus. That is wonderful! ....but I may have my own reasons for being quiet about joining causes ... even terrific ones. You have to understand. I have lived most of my life in a world where signing a petition would not be on the top of the " to do" list. And I expect that most of the people who have frequented my life would react the same way. To be disappointed in our slowness to " sign up" is I think a reflection of the fact that you don't know us all that well yet.........
I am so glad that you might consider a US treaty initiative to be a reasonable notion , and that you even perhaps consider ISST initiative to be a possibility . I do not want you to join a cause , there is no need for you to enter into such a struggle , or for any of us . I feel that ISST is situated way beyond the fray and that if it comes into being it will be because the intention and the definition that is gives is the right and appropriate one, one that is needed for our current condition and circumstance . I do not really want you to petition or to give support in ways that are intrusive and time consuming , none of that is necessary either . But I do need something for myself , a part of the puzzle that is missing somehow , and that I feel you can readily supply . What am I asking you for , is a lot and again very little.
It is a a lot because I am asking you to give me an certain intellectual veracity , a voice that will be stronger because I know that it also stems from your community of individuals . That would be a lot for me because it would mean that you and your community of friends had considered the topic and the presentation and that you felt it to have merit . Perhaps you and others would even consider being signatory for a letter of reference of intention or support , simply stating that ISST had value and requesting the topic to be addressed by a question in the House. I would give this to my congressman when I see him in a few weeks. Your signature and those of others would be the very first , later the President would give signature and then the heads of state at the UN . Which would be something fantastic to watch I should think .
I do not wish to engage for petitions , that would be a very hard and difficult path, perhaps in a while a growing interest and media will generate a mass petition , it is also possible that ISST would pass into Congress and Senate without much notice . The signatory letter is not for that purpose , it is to give me the confidence and inspiration that I need , to not be so alone . So that is a lot I know , but that is all really, to comfort the soul as it where.
then you wrote:
"because I believed that good ideas might be worthwhile ones and now I find that the chasing of complicated trails is actually more engrossing It must be that those trails lead to good ideas otherwise why would you follow them , surely not for a superficial amusement." .......... I am not sure how to answer this part of your message so I will put it out there to others ..... anyone else want to respond to our reasons for being in this rabbit hole?
Why are we in this place , perhaps because we cared too much , running after the truth, we might have tripped up because the ground was so steep and rocky and then we just ended up down a rabbit hole instead
Perhaps people reach for truths in many different ways, respond to passions presented to them in different manners. May I ask you .... what was it that drew you so strongly into your interest in this space treaty idea? Can you remember the first spark of interest? Really, its not an idle question.
Well it is a long story, but I will try and fill out a bit here. I was on a some kind of spiritual quest for 40 years. when I was young my world was full of art , I studied asian philosophies , then journalism, then theater all in an informal way with family and friends and within the circle of our particular interests. I came to realize that my wish to engage for the world and to be responsible for others was not a trivial thing. I had never been much good at looking after "self " rather feeling that a responsible person would not do that so much as seek to look after others. I was never much interested in politics or government when I was young , not even reading the news , however in the search for a relatedness one day a few years back I found myself in a political meeting . I was astonished to see the audience focus and spirited engagement yet the political rhetoric felt somewhat empty and symbolic only . Much was made of the 60's , that hippie generation who were now accredited with ensuring political reform , teaching people about the food they ate and the environment they lived in . Something felt wrong , I had been a hippie type, sitting in Hyde Park under the trees smoking weed, while the police looked on complacently . The rhetoric felt very facile and very unstable, the intention was good they were trying to accomplish something serious but the argument was an emotional one and not a logical one I offered my help and I think the politician took me seriously . That was how I found my good friend the Professor Emeritus of Public Policy in Chicago . My congressman helped us , he was sympathetic to our pacifist intentions and provided a room at the Capitol so that we could put up a program for Congress and the public. I asked the pacifists what it is it that is most important and they told me " we must stop the weaponization of space" Such a tremendous responsibility , but then I thought to myself , well you wanted to help and now you have been given this task, it was like being given a fabulous treasure. In the weeks beforehand I was given a general education by some distinguished space policy experts and I also read a big fat reference book on President Reagan's star wars, Shield in Space , now out of print Huddled under the covers I diligently ploughed my way through the tome shaking actually trembling . 200 shuttle flights one a week for four years to put up mirrors and weapons arrays . A yearly budget the size of the entire further education allocation. Somewhere in there I had a sense of Reagan's actual presence I think , an old man tall in a shabby tweed jacket with big shoulders and a stoop. I sensed that he was kind and that he had done his best and had tried to look after people and then he was gone . Regan died that week , I saw the news pictures of the state casket in the Capitol and then got on the plane and was there . I had never been in DC before , so very beautiful . but of course after having accepting responsibility in that way there could be no turning back. I sometimes wonder why did people had given that to me , because they thought that was what I really desired , or because they thought that I could achieve a result . So I have been in this place ever since . On day I might be able to put the burden down, but not yet.
I usually ask of new forum members ... "What brought you to us?" In this case your path found us through trickfox but I wondered what it was about the story of Townsend Brown that drew you initially? I imagine that it would have been his connections with the various agencies that you are probably quite familiar with .... the NRO being the most substantial.
I met trickfox at the singularity board , oddly enough I had been asked to go to TTBrown before, but was very preoccupied and did not want to take up any more research so I did not follow though. When I met trickfox, things were different , I think trickfox is one of the kindest and most perceptive people I have ever met. He brought me to your door and I stepped inside the parallel universe. I could see straight away from your web page that you are a humanistic society, and that you have a unique and remarkable point of view . You have the cachet of freedom and the locus of inspiration and creativity . I do not know much about the extant body of work, but I am sure it is a remarkable one and I appreciate the opportunity to find out much more , I am sure that will be a great inspiration as well.
I imagine that no one gets too far with ideas of a " Space Treaty" without dealing directly with them. But ..... if you haven't had a chance to read the latest chapters you would not know about these connections. So I wonder aloud ..... what was it then about the Townsend Brown story that initially sparked an interest from your point of view? Maybe I am sounding really nosey but this is an attempt to understand better where you are and if there is any way that I can help. I sense alot of mental energy with you and it is looking hard for a place to go. And I want to help you find your way, if I can. Linda[/quote]
You might have a bit more idea where I am although it would take a while to get to know a person .
Trickfox is very different ,he could see right through me straight away so that is quite remarkable.
There is a simple way you can help Linda .
Look again at the treaty draft, I will post a copy on line together with possible letter of support . Think deeply, is this treaty something good for the world. If you feel that answer would be yes then consider the possibility of offering your name as the first and most distinguished signatory . You might offer trickfox some moral support,I think he is planning to see this through together with me , but then sometimes I make him feel very insecure .
You might offer trickfox some moral support,I think he is planning to see this through together with me , but then sometimes I make him feel very insecure .
I don't feel too insecure if you are willing to listen to everyone else. Your leadership in anything will surely blossom if you can convince everyone that you have all the details of your quest for an international treaty in order. That is a very big cake you are trying to bake, and you will need a lot of help. I'm not the only person you need, so perhas we should begin by admitting that at his very moment, -the two of us alone can only agree to examine each other's past work to find common ground. I think of this forum as simply a way for all of us to discover what is special about each of our characters.
so... as we often say here. Go forth!
Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
I am going to be blunt here. I am assuming if you are going to go swinging into this Space Treaty business that you already have a pretty thick hide and can take constructive criticism. And even destructive stuff.
I am pretty insubstantial really as you have already realized . Insensitive is possible , but to what?
I haven't read all that you have posted yet but my first reaction is that there are alot of as was akready said " pie in the sky good wishes for the future" concepts and not alot of cold hard planning. Which means that you are relying on words because your contacts haven't shown up yet. Hey, that works in the best of situations. Throw up the smoke and mirrors and pray that your situation is solid before anyone notices. Done it myself in ways I probably could never share.
Absolutely I am relying on words and there are no contacts, this is a bit strange you would expect someone, anyone would be just a little bit interested, It is quite abnormal the total indifference for something that could be quite significant . So all that there is ...is words when there should be much much more . This is not really about using smoke and mirrors though , I am not trying to deceive anyone or pretend to be something I am not. Of course Martin you are actually talking about the way the world is , at least here I can be quite open about the way things are with me . The world is like this, if someone wants it, everyone wants it . Now it is like a house of cards . One word from the right place can send a cascade of results crashing down around the ears . trickfox is going to try and push forward in a real way , there might be a team and there might be a manifesto . We are waiting for input to to see what needs changing and how a team can come together. Cold hard planning would be a fabulous investment , and tremendously exciting as well , all those satellites, all those computers all those fabulous corporate and institutional opportunities.The marvelous thing about planning for something like this is that the planning can be done on computer and it is very very accurate because it is all based around cold hard facts, tangible data flows and very accurate instrumentations. The planning that designs the treaty platform scarcely has to go through the messy diplomatic phases because the policy bucket is very big I have drawn one that can hold the whole planet even ( !) the technology sits on top of the bucket and draws what it needs out of the bin wraps it up and then passes that back down to the more mundane levels for implementation levels
Are you contacting this forum because you somehow feel that there will be technology developed here that will be used there? Again, a disappointment perhaps but I suspect that his work has been up there from the very first.
Not really I don't know much about state of the art dynamics at least not technical ones . I have a grasp of how things work on the larger scale and how they fit together , and a lot of feeling for innovation and scientific discovery , but not much more . I couldn't tell you which bit did what for instance .
Do you expect that some of the people on this forum perhaps have the proper connections to bring your thoughts in front of the right people? Not a bad plan but probably not the way that would happen.
Not really , It would nice if some people on this forum thought the treaty initiative worthwhile , if they did perhaps they would talk to well connected friends . I would like to see a discussion like that happen but like you I don't know when or how that could .
Its not easy having a concept that you want to engage action around. People need to know exactly what it is that you are all about. Most of these folks can be highly suspicious and if you are looking for names on papers you would probably be better off sitting in front of WalMart.
Not looking for names on paper in that way. I am looking more for empathy and understanding . It is very difficult trying to do this , to be sneered at and turned into someone with a huge responsibility that they have no way of discharging . Is ISST such a stupid idea that no one could even consider it , it is not, I know that it is quite an intelligent idea and could be very helpful. But you would think I am trying to tell people the moon is made of blue cheese, what is wrong here is it me or is it something else .
I agree with you , probably the only way this will get the attention it requires is if some VIP stands up and is the first to be counted then they will all tumble in the rush to be first .
Martin why don't you think about joining Raymond and me and help get this thing launched, you would be a great asset you are a very sensible and straightforward person . Don't just watch , get involved !! we haven't even started yet !!
Still, I like your enthusiasm. I just would like to see where it goes. Martin[/quote]
Are we going to have this discussion here on this board ? It would be a good place but it would take up a lot of room , and Linda and Paul would probably not wish us all over the place . However I think some kind of open forum would be a good idea for us , so that the interested people can see how things are shaping up and that will help to ensure that everything is done in a fair and very careful way . It is a very big cake a tremendous one , so any measure of availability for our updates, notices,drafts, conversations and so on would be a big help , even Martin watching from the sidelines would be a help .
We need to work together in the open so that the creative input and participation will ensure a more genuine substance .
Can we do this here on this thread or should we take it somewhere else , like my web site , you know that sickly pink thing with the incense stick .
am
Trickfox wrote:
You might offer trickfox some moral support,I think he is planning to see this through together with me , but then sometimes I make him feel very insecure .
I don't feel too insecure if you are willing to listen to everyone else. Your leadership in anything will surely blossom if you can convince everyone that you have all the details of your quest for an international treaty in order. That is a very big cake you are trying to bake, and you will need a lot of help. I'm not the only person you need, so perhas we should begin by admitting that at his very moment, -the two of us alone can only agree to examine each other's past work to find common ground. I think of this forum as simply a way for all of us to discover what is special about each of our characters.
Mikado OK will do ...I have to think first...be patient I will come up with something in a bit ...Amalie
Mikado14 wrote:
amalie wrote: There are tons of spin offs for everyone here. But itemizing all the attributes of all the catalyzed technological implementations under ISST is a tremendous and probably unnecessary task.
Trickfox
What do you mean "muti-generational project " we are all old now, you as well
Amalie
Trickfox wrote:
"The word is EXOPOLITICS.
Anyone understand what I mean here."
Oh, I have heard the word Trickfox. I also understand that there are conferences every year held on the subject. I believe that Paul has even attended one or two. What are you actually asking here? Linda
I'm asking if anyone else thinks we should worry less about national politics and more about international politics and even -what EXOPOLITICS could be like in comparison to all this right/left stuff.
The problem is that even the word "EXO-Politics" is perhaps malintepreted. It's the same problem I see with "first contact/awareness" there is a symetry if you are listening for it, but like all things it depends on your perspective.
This is my first "multi-generational project" Linda, so I'm just now getting comfortable with life and hapiness.
Rose wrote:Amalie, I have been giving some thought to ways to help you move your initiative forward. You might begin by researching the Universities which have the top rate gradate departments in the policy arena, (or simply start with Harvard, Yale, and the Top 10 public universities and study their graduate school's faculty list. Make a note each time you find someone who might be an ally and contact them. These are the people who have the connections in places where policy is made. When you find someone who might be an ally, use the "snowball technique" and ask for the names of 5 or 0 others of similar mindset.
The writeups for the departments of Economics, Political Science, Health Administration, Public Administration and Education will often state that Policy is an area of departmental focus. Facutly resumes will also tell you a lot.
And just to be clear about my previous statements, I see policy and politics as different topics. Political discussions focus on candidates, parties, and elections. Policy discussions focus on issues, resources, and stakeholders.
Go ahead and continue posting in this thread Amalie. If people are interested they will contribute if not, we will find out how effective we are being rather quickly, so let's see if we are both self-delusional about helping to develop a bright and optimistic future.
I'm going over some paperwork with others and we have to look over your work too.
I'm also busy on two other projects going here so lets take our time shall we?.
Let's post results here later.
Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
I have enjoyed watching the dance and happy to see you out there... however .... make sure that you are dancing to the same tune! and remember what I said about the most exciting women. At least from my point of view and experience.
Amalie,
My suggestion? Listen well to the advice Rose has given you. You will need to build power networks and it takes time and extremely hard work with no short cuts in the process. You are looking for solid stepping stones to cross the mire and your challenge will be to convince them that what you have to say matches with what they have felt already in their hearts but havent had the words for. Not an easy process.
And on another score please remember that when someone says ...." no signatures "... they mean just that. No amount of coming around for seconds will change that. Put your energies where they are best served. twigsnapper
In regards to peace purposes in space, we know that there are a bunch of satellites circling around us but can anyone say for sure what they are? I have read about the "shotgun" approach where a satellite can take out another missile or satellite with basically a bunch of birdshot. But then this could present a hazard later on if people travel to space and their craft gets struck by one of these errant pieces of birdshot.
I guess even after reading your website I do not have a clear picture of what your are trying to accomplish. Maybe a PowerPoint slide show would help? This may help organize your thoughts and present a clear picture to your Congress person. Then he could present your show to others to give them a clear picture. Flash animation would also work but I think Flash is gimmicky and uses a lot of bandwidth. Some people still use dial up at home.
But if you are trying to convince me about weaponization of space, I'd say you are too late. I could also provide the argument that Reagan's Star Wars program was proven in Desert Storm and it also caused the end of the Cold War. Reagan told the Russians to tear down the Berlin wall and it came down (eventually).
Amalie, you have a good start but I agree with Trickfox that you have a ways to go. First of all, unless you're promoting breast cancer awareness, the colors have to go. Use Trickfox's black background with the stars like his website. You can have the black text on a white box, that's OK and probably more businesslike than the yellow, although my site uses it as well. If your site really does deal with limiting anti satellite weapons, then educate the user and also provide a picture like this:
or maybe this:
Furthermore, if you notice where those photos came from, there already is an organization called Space 4 Peace. They are a group that has a good website with the colors I suggested. They have a great chart showing how that money spent elsewhere could create more jobs. I would definitely get then to trade links and get them to help support you. http://www.space4peace.org/
And they have this really cool cartoon.
I hope I have given you some ideas for you to use. I wish you well in your efforts.
And never forget this Land and what it can do for you.
And on that note, here's This Land: http://www.jibjab.com/originals/this_land
There might be a more direct way for an achievement of the treaty initiative , I am thinking around a few possibilities and I will let you all know if I come up with a "short path". It has been and will be very hard work otherwise , and perhaps not really possible for an individual to attempt .
I am not aware that anyone has said a categorical NO or even NO signatures so far, perhaps they did and I didn't take note. I do not want to pressure anyone , or even to be persuasive . Things speak for themselves . Individuals make choices and commitment because they have affinity . Something that Linda mentioned earlier , what is the real motivating factor behind choice . I do not want to take something , I want to give something , perhaps that it why I might be misunderstood sometimes, that is possible .
Yes there is a lot of equipment up there and a lot of space debris as well .
A power point slide show would help a lot , if you could provide one that would be fabulous. I do not think my congressman would look at that though but there is a slight chance that I might get invited for an oral presentation at the Cape Canaveral Conference end of October . If not I might be given a poster.
I will know about this around September 18th I think and will get back to you them. I have got a nice new laser pointer , a gift from NASA and I am looking forward to using it !
Weaponization of space is really a misnomer because in space most things can be a weapon, satellites are so fragile and easily damaged. Most satellites can be readily identified from the ground and they can be taken out using "off the shelf components" recently demonstrated by air force tests , later Chinese asat blew up a redundant structure . They called this a "shot for peace " What it would be good to try and avoid now is twofold.
1. Fragementation of the body politic over space based and missile defensive structures ( we are already seeing that kind of thing around the EU/US/ NATO/Russia policy failures and following debacle in Georgia )
2. Unilateral or even bi-lateral attempts to build and deploy sophisticated space weapons instrumentations , appealing for DOD and research budgets because they secure funding . Arguments could be made that such weapons contribute to the scientific advancement but in fact these sorts of research are far afar better undertaken within international space agency scientific consortiums , the open dynamic means more money , pooling of resources and outcome applications
such as enhanced laser communications that can serve the civil society interests , This all leads back to Eisenhower's original intent when establishing NASA to balance up military space involvements with civil society space development .
Thus we get back to the relevant policy issue .
Yes I agree with you , the high ground works, ISST gives America genuine high ground , very stable and very benign within a well intentioned global security condition. A lot do not want this because they do not like America , a lot feel this way even though they are actually American citizens .
I know the web site is a bit icky , it is the best I could manage . A standard Yahoo business web host format . Comes complete with pink borders , incense and all . A new web site could be compiled this is just for starters, the URL is mine. ( Raymond might want to remake the site once he figures out what additional input would be, what are needed clarification and how to join together for UNITY and RESPECT)
Thank you for the links I have been these groups without much joy , they do not like me much , often think I am interfering with their situation. That could change if a bit of ground were found , and then I am sure they would distribute for treaty initiative.
Here is some ( rather incomplete ) information on chemical and toxin controls .
re our conversation earlier today .
This afternoon there was a new bill introduced in the Senate to give more accurate information for dangers from chemical toxins. The information around the status of toxic chemicals controls and identifications is being now being supplied by a properly empowered scientific community acting under one Congrssional umbrella with direct and formal responsibilities. The very good thing is that the valued information will also be freely available to the public . The Senate was thrilled to obtain such a practical and helpful legislation, which was made possible through a genuine scientific implementation for the relevant civil society and humanistic principles . This type of legislative structure is what I feel US space policy could be all about , technological acumen for human development . An integrated and legislated format that would expand into the real -time earth observation capacity for multitude developmental and also e-government computationally enabled prospects .
Sorry I do not have the bill no , but you should be able to reference that.
I think I got the general details , program was broadcast here about 3pm Pacific time .
Not supposed to discuss politics , I know , just too sticky
But for my "One Opinion" , Like you Bill do not have much hope for Obama
No experience is dangerous and early connections are fishy , black power , fundamentalists and so on .
He said in his biography "My father was black as coal , and my mother was white as milk ... "
Which I thought was a truly facile, abhorrent and tasteless analogy. I think he has played the race card as well , my husband likes him, but then my husband is playing a few cards himself , against me that is.
Looking at the news images, Mc Cain seems to have got a second wind, polls put him ahead even . His wife seems to have cheered up as well . I did not get a good feeling from watching Michelle Obama tonight . It seems as if the political flow affects candidates several ways , either softens them up or hardens against the fire. Mc Cain is relaxing a bit now which is nice , he might make a good statesman .
I think either way we will have a real problem with incompetence , Hilary would have had a few more executive skills, but now she is behind the scenes which is probably a good thing , she seems to understand the bi-partisan basis.
Today some more news on the total and gross administrative ineptitude . How could they let this happen ?
