Chapter 70: Look Ma, No Hands -- Or Head

Use this section for any discussion specifically related to the chapters posted online of the unfolding biography, "Defying Gravity: The Parallel Universe of T. Townsend Brown
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Paul S.
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Chapter 70: Look Ma, No Hands -- Or Head

Post by Paul S. »

Yes, kids, the time has finally arrived.

https://www.ttbrown.com/defying_gravity/70_nohands.html

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Langley
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Re: Chapter 70: Look Ma, No Hands -- Or Head

Post by Langley »

Well, amazing. Reminds me of Carl Sagan, who though on the CIA payroll, had Soviet friends. All shared same anti nuke war agenda. A confederate of scientists to whom national boundaries were a delusion of the ill informed. It was the progress of the species and the preservation of the planet which mattered.

Remember Yeltstin's speech to US Congress in which he promised to find "missing Americans" in USSR and facilitate their return? Went quiet didnt it? Odd stories have arisen since about one or two choosing to stay in Russia, though they were (and many were) taken to USSR from Vietnamese POW camps and earlier (Korea). Unlikely I guess but a possible route to infiltrate USSR. Not that the Caroline Group was US only, rather multinational.

Cesium ions. Hmm. http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=get ... =AD0610427

" Accession Number : AD0610427

Title : CESIUM ION BEAM NEUTRALIZATION IN VEHICULAR SIMULATION.

Descriptive Note : Technical rept. no. 4,

Corporate Author : TRW SPACE TECHNOLOGY LABS LOS ANGELES CALIF

Personal Author(s) : Sellen,J. M. ; Kemp,R. F.

Report Date : 1961

Pagination or Media Count : 65

Abstract : A series of experiments are described which relate to the charge neutralization of a broad cesium ion beam under circumstances which simulate the conditions of space. This was accomplished by the use of pulsed beams and by the control of the boundary conditions in such a manner as to reduce to an extremely low level the electric fields between these boundaries and the ejected plasma. The period of ion turn-around was reduced to values below the present limits of measurement (approx. 1 micro-sec). The ejected plasma was found to possess a high degree of overall neutrality. The fraction of ions which were matched by the presence of an electron equaled or exceeded 0.998. The plasma was well neutralized on a point-by-point basis. It was also demonstrated that for fixed ion source perveance the neutralization is independent of the acceleration voltage.

Descriptors : *ION BEAMS, *PLASMAS(PHYSICS), ION ENGINES, SPACE ENVIRONMENTS, CESIUM, VACUUM, IONS, ELECTRONS, RECOMBINATION REACTIONS, ION SOURCES, SPACECRAFT, SIMULATION.

Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

GE? SL1 cleanup Idaho Falls, core removal to the hot shop used in the atomic aircraft project for dismantling and diagnosis - . GE Reactors. GE Metastron , Pecher. UCLA Berkeley cyclotron. Lawrence. Groves. Round I go again.

I think the Manhattan Projects had many off shoots. Shank and Brown seem a natural fit. (Cesium 137 being a major fallout product, biochemically affecting mainly soft tissue when internalised) Easy to obtain from fission process. (GE reactors)

You're doing an absollutely amazing job Paul. Im learning so much.
Last edited by Langley on Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
flowperson
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Post by flowperson »

Paul...I am impressed by the amount of detail that you have crammed into this chapter. It undeniably now paints a picture of TTB as a covert operative for, let's say, "the good guys", while his ongoing scientific contributions are consciously and consistently pushed into the background and conducted in the "black" by others.

Yes, "security" was definitelty at the top of his "agenda" list. And thank you also for your mention of the "Atlas" computers in the early 60's. I was unaware of that program and I've already stored information regarding it away in my little apple's memory banks.

And you have also established the conclusiveness of the Caroline Group's transcendance of national interests. The bit about there being "set" groups both in the west, and behind the iron curtain is fascinating. It reveals to us that the stakes in the cold war were likely larger than we perceived and were likely driven by things lurking in the background and forever out of sight, except to people such as Townsend Brown.

Do you think that this was originally led into being by scientific lights on both sides of the fence in the interest of developing these technologies for the greater good of humanity? I'm beginning to whiff this as the "initial conditions".

It all makes me wonder out loud again about the resurgence in interest by members of the retired military and intelligence communities at globally publicized meetings this week. They pointedly urged governments to bring UFO information out of the closet so that the public might judge for themselves what its significance might have been and is.

Thanks Paul...write on !

flow....


:)
Last edited by flowperson on Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Victoria Steele
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caught me asleep

Post by Victoria Steele »

You caught me asleep at the switch again! OBoy, Oh BOY. ALOT to talk about here, for sure!

Of course I remember the forum posts that Mr. Twigsnapper put up about the race horses in England and how Dr. Brown had asked him to help him so that he could learn alot more. I greatly admire that he would get up so early but anybody who knows anything at all about race horses knows that much of their day happens very very early. That he would want to be there then is amazing to me.

The Berlin Tunnel? What in the world was he doing there? I have read about it but I guess I need to go back and really look. I hadn't realized that it had been compromised from the start. How embarassing! I'll bet the Russians were laughing their asses off as they shoveled all that useless information in our direction. Think of the time that our intelligence agencies wasted on all of that crap!

Smoking Bolt operations? I have heard that phrase before but can't quite remember where. Get in, get out ... leaving nothing but smoking bolts where something was bolted to the floor.... that kind of thing.

I love your picture Mr. Trickfox ORiley( so sorry Trickfox that I wrote your name instead of Mr. Twigsnapper, I hope everybody knew what I meant right off . I musta been thinking of you... leaving it in just because of that!) . Handsome men, you and Dr. Brown!And the sailors were good looking too. From what ship? Americans? English? Anybody said? If the frogman was English Navy ..... then could these men have something to do with him? He went into the water just a month later. Could one of these guys be Crabb? Just a thought. Why were they in the picture if there wasn't some sort of link. Any Navy uniform experts out there? Can we hear from you? Victoria
Last edited by Victoria Steele on Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
flowperson
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Post by flowperson »

Victoria...The guy next to O'Riley/T resembles the late Mr. Crabb IMHO.
A large guy also, about as tall as TTB.

flow.... 8)
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Victoria Steele
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Thats interesting

Post by Victoria Steele »

Thats interesting Flow. You know. This is the way I look at it. Mr. Twigsnapper ORiley can not outright tell us much of anything. If that whole operation was classified by the British? Then it must also be classified by the Americans? Stupid to be one and not the other. So whatever side our Mr. Twigsnapper happened to be on at the time ( Sure he was British Secret Service, or some such) he could not talk about this REALLY. But that wouldn't stop him from leading us to Lionel Crabb and supplying the picture of he and Dr. Brown. What we put together then is on our own.

I am not sure that the tall guy is Crabb or not .... but if he is ..... what an outstanding link. Also if we can find out what ship those sailors are from .... that would be special too and probably something that he can not volunteer.

And Paul. Do you have any idea how special those Hermes scarves are? Maybe not. I have a couple of girlfriends that honestly think that they haven't Made it .... until they have a Hermes leather bag and scarf.
Sheeze! Not a bad group of gifts from a broke Laundry keeper. Victoria
Mark Culpepper
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alot to learn from

Post by Mark Culpepper »

I am so impressed. And as a teacher I have to thank you because those reading your book will be drawn into learning more and more history just to try to keep up with what you are talking about and that is a special thing.

Gone way beyond grades .... but its another A plus.

What Mr. Twigsnapper said here was really interesting I think<

"Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't but all in all I think we gained precious time by just getting the hell out there. He got very good at looking over our shoulders as we worked, sometimes not in the most comfortable of situations. But with his help we identified and shut down some direct links with Moscow. After that we started going after stuff that they had, not only shutting down their communications"

Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't" ( means to me that the product was only partially developed but rushed into use because it was needed so desperately. Make sense?) He got very good at looking over our shoulders .... not in the most comfortable of situations. I have read a little of Peter Wrights book Spycatcher and he talks about how the men called " Watchers" had such uncomfortable listening posts but they still got the job done ... is this the same situation? Can we learn more about all of this simply by looking at what Wright has written? Even he had a hard time getting his book past some sensors ... maybe for the same reasons Mr. Twigsnapper can't talk about things? MarkC
flowperson
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Post by flowperson »

There's an amazing amount of information out there about our departed friend Lionel. A person such as this would normally be totally forgotten by history. Why him, and what made him an important person in the grand scheme of things ?

Interesting that he was nicknamed "buster" after the famous USC graduate, olympic swim team athlete, and film star "Buster Crabbe", who was most well known for his roles as Flash Gordon in innumerable serial dramas. Ming the Merciless, Princess Aura, Dr. Zharkov, Dale Arden, the Clay People, the Vulcans...oh my ! I've got two tapes in my library in the back room.

I used to love these early depictions of off world adventures and space flight when I went to the town theater on Saturday afternoons. For 25 cents you'd get to see the weekly serial installment, two movies, a bag of popcorn, and two pieces of penny candy. When you got to seventh grade age, you finally got to sit in the back two rows and neck with your girlfriend.

Lionel's death also triggered a massive upheavel in the UK's intelligenge community, deflating MI6's balloon and mission and inflating MI5's balloon preparing the way for Ian Fleming's cold war stories featuring that cold hearted killer and ladies' man James Bond. License to kill indeed. Was this all accidental and coincidental ? One wonders...hmmmm.

flow.... :roll:
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kevin.b
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Post by kevin.b »

Flowperson,
Your James bond connection?
In the book spycatcher, Peter wright says one of his MI5 operatives could do the cross word in his head, could he indeed?
From Russia with love
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Kevin
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Radomir
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What was he looking for?

Post by Radomir »

Months ago, Mr. Twigsnapper had mentioned I might look into Mr. Crabb's history, and I found it as fascinating then as now. The main question I was left with was "what was he really looking for?" on that sub? And the hopeful conclusion I came to was not that it was "Crabb was asked to dive on the Ordzhonikidze to look for anti-sonar equipment and mine-laying hatches. " Rather, he was looking for signs that the sub had been outfitted with any technology related to Brown's work, whether that be propulsion or other that might be visible.

Paul left out of his version the element that in some accounts the Russian sub actually fired on the diver, and may have injured or killed him. There may also have been more than one diver.

Also take into account this grisly factor that Paul thankfully avoided dealing with directly. Were the head and hands missing because sea creatures had availed themselves of the open areas of the suit? [Would be interesting to research whether the frogman suits of that era covered the ankles & feet, for instance. They didn't mention his feet...] I tend rather to think that someone on the MI6 side retrieved the body, and made it as impossible as they could to identify before dumping it back in the drink. That way they would have as long as possible of a period of "plausible deniability." This would also fit if Crabb had been shot in the head by someone from the sub--no injury would be visible if that part were removed. One account mentioned he was using a rebreather--which, if was giving him trouble, might have caused him to surface long enough that a marksman on the Russian boat could have got a shot off--at the part that was sticking out of the water, his head.

Another great chapter, Paul, and you have increasing elegance with which you interweave the material that you DO have access to, into a substantive and coherent narrative.

One thing that Mr. Twigsnapper said in his email to me about Crabb was: "Note the classification date." I assume that means 2057...if so, what is special about that date, do we think?

On edit:
I left out of my first message how wildly exciting it was to read about the successful vacuum chamber tests! Thanks again Paul.

R.
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Nice to hear from you

Post by Trickfox »

Well hello again Radomir

We missed you in the past few weeks.

Just letting you know that we all value your input and have missed your presence.

Trickfox
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Post by Chris Knight »

Definitely a grisley topic. I always thought that Lionel's head and hands (if it was, in fact, his body) would have ended up as a package on someone's desk.

If the Russian's did kill him, it would seem strange that they would want to make the body unidentifiable. Rather, I would think they would want to call out what was going on in order to embarass the U.S., but a more pointed message would be having a package like that delivered to make an impression on someone or some organization.

"Keep your hands off our stuff, and your nose in your own business," kind of thing.
Last edited by Chris Knight on Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Victoria Steele
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yes, welcome back

Post by Victoria Steele »

Yes, I join with Trickfox in welcoming you back Radomir.

You mention sub. Russian sub .... but Pauls chapter says " Cruiser". So was there a sub there too or is one of you wrong? .... or is there another choice so I don't have to go either/or. Trying to train myself away from that you know!

I read up a little on Crabb too. Some I guess thought that he had defected to Russia?

And what does Morgan mean when he says that the Caroline group " splintered" ..... and then it sounds like they got competitive with each other. Well, yes. I can see that. But it sounds like the Russian Carolines and the American Carolines actually rubbed up against each other, sometimes not nicely. What does he mean too ... leave the Humans out of it. Could it be that the frogman was looking for developments in the Soviet navy that could have been assisted by other Caroline operatives. But wouldn't they share that with each other. Unless of course .... they got competitive too .... stealing ponies Morgan said. Thats an Apache trick. More embarrassing than deadly. But it could go in that direction. SOOO Interesting Paul. Alot for us to talk about. I won't ask you about THURSDAYS for a long while. Promise. Victoria

Good Grief Andrew, Remind me to keep my horse out of your reach!
Victoria
Last edited by Victoria Steele on Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paul S.
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Re: What was he looking for?

Post by Paul S. »

Radomir wrote: And the hopeful conclusion I came to was not that it was "Crabb was asked to dive on the Ordzhonikidze to look for anti-sonar equipment and mine-laying hatches. " Rather, he was looking for signs that the sub had been outfitted with any technology related to Brown's work, whether that be propulsion or other that might be visible.
That, I think, is the conclusion at the center of the circle that we're going around in here. But how else to get there from here...??

The question of "sub" -v- "cruiser" is a good one, too. Would a sub have accompanied the cruiser on a voyage with such high level passengers? Sounds like a good bet to me.

And the Rooskie's response, that a "frogman" had been seen in the water near the cruiser... is that they're way of saying "and we have the trophies in our (grisly) collection"?

The way I read my source material on this one, I think the word 'severed' came up with regard to the missing appendages, but I couldn't quite figure out how to get that word into the sentence. Next draft.

As for 2057, i think that's probably an even 100 years from whenever the investigation concluded.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Radomir
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sub vs. cruiser

Post by Radomir »

My mistake on that, I had submarines on the brain--it was a ship. However that led Paul to wonder if there might not have been an accompanying vessel, very interesting.

Chris that's an interesting possibility that it was "trophy-taking" on the part of the Russians--shades of Morgan's words about "coup." But my thought was not that the Russians had dismembered Crabbe's corpse, but that MI6 or their agent had...if there had been more than one diver, or a diver-tender on the shore, they could have recovered his body first but wanted to destroy (or in a hurry, obfuscate) the evidence of their overstepping their jurisdiction.

Here is a tidbit from my previous research:


http://www.trivia-library.com/b/mystery ... -crabb.htm
[excerpt:]
Crabb had been spotted by a sentry on the warship. Khrushchev no doubt expected that an attempt would be made to spy on Russian underwater equipment and was not offended. Prime Minister Sir Anthony Eden was furious. Crabb's dive was unauthorized, he told the House of Commons. On Apr. 29, the government acknowledged that Crabb was "dead," a remarkable and never explained admission when it needed only to state that he was "missing."
...
Possible Solutions: There are several theories. Did the Russians kill Crabb beneath the cruiser and allow the body to drift away? Did they take him to Russia and kill him there? Did they persuade him to join the Soviet navy and dump another body in the English Channel? According to a West German source, Crabb is still alive but is now using the name Korablov.

It is more probable that Crabb died in Portsmouth Harbor from respiratory failure. He was in poor health and above the age limit for deep diving. His breathing equipment was meant for dives down only to 33 ft., and he would have needed to dive below that depth to clear the 25-ft. draft of the Ordzhonikidze.

Because he needed the job, Crabb took a chance--and lost. Or did he?
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