Hidden but why

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
Rose
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Rose »

It is sensible, Nate. Where is it written that benefits and evil deeds are flip sides of the same coin? But after reading the history of the Octopus, I can't help but think the worst of the folks involved.

rose
Last edited by Rose on Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Strange travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god.
Langley
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Langley »

Rose wrote:It is sensible, Nate. Where is it written that banefits and evil deeds are flip sides of the same coin. But after reading the history of the Octopus, I can't help but think the worst of the folks involved.

rose
Will have to get familiar with that one.

Watched Thunderball last night. And recalled Tex telling me how in the late 50s he read in the Broken Hill paper how RAF Vulcan bomber testing air to ground nuke missile overflew Broken Hill airport and surprised the air traffic controllers because it didnt show on radar. They only knew it was there because they could eyeball it and hear it.

And led me to thinking about the optimum wing/fuselage shape for coherent ion flow. As areodynamic forces would still exist as potential discoherers. And Delta wings may be up there.

The Vulcan also had multi pack jet outlets, like an XB70. The more the merrier. The forward antenna is mounted centrally of course, and the jet outlet symmetrically horizontally offset. Longitudinal flow with an off set away from fuselage, increasing with distance from nose.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/allen.conq ... ulcan1.jpg

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/bomber/b-70.htm

And round I go again
http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/aircraf ... o/info.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lippisch

http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=82

What lineage am I looking at here?

The nuke missile fired from the Vulcan missed its target. It was not armed, but loaded with plutonium in its warhead. 3 decades later it was found to have spread Plutonium dust through the Oak Valley Aboriginal reserve. Including the Primary School. The White teachers went on strike. And it was cleaned up. sorta.
Rose
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Rose »

Langley wrote:
Rose wrote:It is sensible, Nate. Where is it written that banefits and evil deeds are flip sides of the same coin. But after reading the history of the Octopus, I can't help but think the worst of the folks involved.

rose
Will have to get familiar with that one.
It emerged on page 4 of the People/places thread, Langley.

Still have gotten that off line vacation, I see! <g>

rose
Strange travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god.
Langley
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Langley »

Rose wrote:
Langley wrote:
Rose wrote:It is sensible, Nate. Where is it written that banefits and evil deeds are flip sides of the same coin. But after reading the history of the Octopus, I can't help but think the worst of the folks involved.

rose
Will have to get familiar with that one.
It emerged on page 4 of the People/places thread, Langley.

Still have gotten that off line vacation, I see! <g>

rose
No I havent but I've had to slow down, and havent read as much as I should. I get the formerly lost 1942 article on the weekend and I expect Ill be totally involved in that next week. Same story different topic.
(Just on that, if it turns out that from 1942 to 1993 people were denied palliative pain relief via a nuclear medicine radiopharmacutical because of suppression dictated by National Security during the Cold War, one has to ask who really won WW2.)

Anyhow, reviewing copius notes I found this link:
http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/navy_ltd.htm
and
http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/u ... search.htm
And its interesting in view of Gunn and Brown and Fermi and the naval reactor. It seems logical that one would have a reactor design before one starts the difficult task of uranium enrichment. The Navy was enriching U at Phillie.

somewhere in the above interactive site, there is mention of the Uranium Committee and the Navy. The Uranium had to come from somewhere by some administrative structure.

However, as previous documents presented here show, the Navy, specifically the NRL and Gunn, perhaps with his subordinate, first engaged with Fermi who later designed the Manhattan Project's Pile and reactors.

The point being that Twigsnapper has in the past highlighted the importance of Fermi in the work of TT Brown. And though that is not in relation to reactors and bombs, and probably relates to the nature of reality as described by Lorentz, (of which I understand diddly squat), what it does demonstrate is opportunity of contact. Contact which might have been maintained throughtout the war via Brank Shank.



As
Langley
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Langley »

This is tantallising

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=fGw ... &ct=result

Page 15 Two NRL scientists met with Fermi. One was Gunn. Who was the other?
That was 1939.
Rose
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Rose »

Langley,

Fermi was in Washington for an extended period of time about then. He gave several open-to-the-public lectures at GW University. (I found this tidbit in an oral history interview of a retired GW physics dept. chair).

Yes, one can't help but wonder who was with Gunn at the first meeting. I think we can safely assume that whoever it was also had an interest in submarine propulsion, but there were over three hundred employees at the lab by then so there might be several candidates. I also wonder whether or not they/he went out of their way to meet with Fermi again while he was in DC, or if they got what they needed from him in one meeting?

rose
Strange travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god.
Langley
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Langley »

It may well have been Abelson, who is listed as being NRL though he had a post elsewhere. He spent time at Crocker lab with Ernest Lawrence and the cyclotron working on the enrichment problem. He came up with the thermal method and Lawrence the electromagnetic. In that brief period the NRL and Crocker Lab worked together through those two. I know guilt by association is bad, but networking by association is just the way things are. And I retain the thought that Brown and Lawrence had a commonality of interest at least. Lawrence was convinced by 1940 that the US would be dragged to war and so started shifting from medicine to war research from an early date. Which explains the early success with plutonium - which Seaborg et al cooked up at Crocker. Oppie was there too as was Hamilton, and Segre and Wu. So Lawrence was doing his thing with fission related stuff and at the same time the NRL was doing its own early work, way before the S1 committee formally contemplated it. even though Lawrence was on that committee. Its a thick brew of connections. By the time Groves rolled up he didnt really have to organise them much. Except for banning aliens, which Lawrence worked around.
Rose
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Rose »

Abelson? I don't know. Relatively, speaking he was a kid next to Gun... there was something like a 16 year age difference between them. This is all I can find about him in those early years:

He got his Ph.D in 1939. In 1940 he assisted Edwin McMillan in creating the first transuranic element, neptunium, by bombardment of uranium with neutrons in the Berkeley cyclotron http://www.answers.com/topic/philip-abelson

He joined NRL in February of 1941. http://www.atomicheritage.org/index.php ... Itemid=200

Now we know that the NRL had been interested in nuclear power since the mid-thirties, and was waiting to present it as a research agenda until there was more hard science behind it. When Fermi came to town, Gunn would have seen this as the advantageous opening he needed. I think he would have taken a more senior NRL employee to that presentation...somewho had been part of those earlier discussions, who also had knowledge of the swamp of bureacratic politics they would have to negotiate, likely someone from whatever division would be assignedthe actual research work. Perhaps not Brown, but my gut feeling says that it wasn't Abelson, a green Ph.D. with no Navy or Civil Service experience.

i'd love to know who that was, but I'd love to know tomorrow's lottery numbers too. Fat chance on both accounts.

rose
Strange travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god.
Griffin
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Re: Not Hidden & Why

Post by Griffin »

Hello all-

This probably should go on its own topic thread. As perhaps you all know, former astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell has confirmed on Kerrang radio in the UK (appropriately on July 23) that UFOs are definitely real and that "we have been visited on this planet." He has been briefed on this and has interacted with various research and intelligence groups involved. He also essentially confirms the Incident at Roswell, which is an area where he grew up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhNdxdve ... re=related

As ever,

Griffin
Langley
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Langley »

Rose wrote:Abelson? I don't know.
Now we know that the NRL had been interested in nuclear power since the mid-thirties, and was waiting to present it as a research agenda until there was more hard science behind it. When Fermi came to town, ..... Perhaps not Brown, but my gut feeling says that it wasn't Abelson, a green Ph.D. with no Navy or Civil Service experience.

i'd love to know who that was, but I'd love to know tomorrow's lottery numbers too. Fat chance on both accounts.

rose
I havent the foggiest either. Abelson was the bod who came up with the enrichment method used by the Navy, he was spending the summer vacation pottering about with Lawrence at the cyclotron when he came up with the idea. And given that the degree of enrichment determines whether a particular batch of U is going to fission, the underpinnings of that would have been an important consideration. How enriched does reactor fuel have to be? How many times does the stuff have to go through the process. How big a plant, how much time would it take. Fermi might offer clues.

Could be Brown and Gunn didnt get on as one had one entirely concept of silent propulsion from the other.
Rose
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Rose »

i've read that LD met the Navy's need for quantity over quality. it was that production ability that made Grove accept [finally] that the MED could benefit from it.

Re the Gunn and Brown relationship...whether they got along or not, they must have bumped up against each other at many times during their careers. Frequently, if TTB's work was selected for further R & D by the USN. But from what Vallois says in the other Brown bio that did not happen, or at least not with TTB's involvement. He writes as if he had some inside knowledge of their relationship, and i think he would agree with your assessment.
Strange travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god.
Langley
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Langley »

Rose wrote:i've read that LD met the Navy's need for quantity over quality. it was that production ability that made Grove accept [finally] that the MED could benefit from it.

...He writes as if he had some inside knowledge of their relationship, and i think he would agree with your assessment.
I dont have the material in front of me but the enrichment needed for the proposed naval reactor was way less than that needed for the bomb, so they could churn the stuff out relative to what was needed for the bomb. The Naval stuff fed into the Oak Ridge enrichment machines sped things up as they didnt have to feed it through as many times.

I havent read the other biography.
htmagic
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by htmagic »

Langley wrote:I dont have the material in front of me but the enrichment needed for the proposed naval reactor was way less than that needed for the bomb, so they could churn the stuff out relative to what was needed for the bomb. The Naval stuff fed into the Oak Ridge enrichment machines sped things up as they didnt have to feed it through as many times.

I havent read the other biography.
Folks,

U235 used for bombs is much higher than needed for reactors. Whereas over 90% is required for bombs, under 10% is needed for most reactors. In fact, the DOE blended down the enriched material in Russian bombs to reactor grade material.

The compressors and stages used for the low grade stuff are much larger than that used for enriched. And by the time you get very high in enrichment, there are thousands of smaller stages...

Now Dr. Brown wrote about beneficiation of lighter gravitic isotopes and using centrifuges to do the separation. Now France may hate the US, but they sure like the centrifuge technology that the US developed for enrichment. It's nice to know it works well...

MagicBill
Speeding through the Universe, thinking is the best way to travel ...
Langley
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Re: Hidden but why

Post by Langley »

htmagic wrote:
Now Dr. Brown wrote about beneficiation of lighter gravitic isotopes and using centrifuges to do the separation. Now France may hate the US, but they sure like the centrifuge technology that the US developed for enrichment. It's nice to know it works well...

MagicBill
I have had this on my mind. Its a pin with a string on it, dont know where to; he had vision for sure.

The Japanese programs in WW2 spent years - most of the war - trying to build suitable centrifuges.
The Occupation Forces destroyed the incomplete Kyoto one. I think they finally got one up and running in either 53 or 55. Iran might not actually have the problem. All they have to do is buy it from China. They have an agreement. Its all about science and society and the people in charge.

The building of centrifuges is a current form of sabre rattling.
kevin.b
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Re:

Post by kevin.b »

flowperson wrote:Y'all be welcome !

Klatuu Barada Nicto, etc....

flow.... 8)
Mikado 14,
I feel I owe you a reply, so going with the flow,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO6YAnTys_4
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