Chapter 63: The Mole, The Bug, and the Prairie Chicken

[Moldova]

Quoted from the second link in the Port Chicago post:

"'The original flash lasted approximately 10 to 15 seconds. As the first flash died down, there arose in the approximate center of where the original flash had occurred an enormous ball of what appeared to be fire and closely resembled a rising sun that was three-fourths above a mountain. The ball of fire lasted approximately 15 seconds, then died down and the sky resumed an almost normal appearance.'

Although the energy yield of the Trinity explosion was one order of magnitude greater than the energy yield of the Port Chicago explosion, the characteristic temperature of the nuclear fireball and succeeding column of flame produced by the Trinity explosion was the same as the temperature of the fireball and succeeding column of flame produced by the Port Chicago explosion. The ball of fire and column of flame produced by the Port Chicago explosion were typical of a nuclear explosion, and were accurately used by Joseph O. Hirschfelder and William G. Penney to predict the characteristic behavior of the fireball and column of flame that did result from the Trinity nuclear weapon test.
*************************************************************

Mebbe... Mebbe not... No one will know for quite a while. It is always easier to predict with hindsight.

[Langley]

A quote from the link re: Port Chicago

Moldova

Yes. However following the content at that site, I came upon a chapter on the production figures for enriched weapons grade material for the period in and it
provided a link to more info on Ross Gunn, Brown's superior at NRL. It confirms that Gunn was a member of S1 - the predessor of the Manhattan District Engineers (later renamed Manhattan Project), and led by Groves. Post War became AEC led effectively by Teller re bombs.

Gunn - Manhattan Project. Groves superior to Gunn who was superior of Brown. Teller - Brown - AEC.

And Gunn was involved in "obtaining" the plans for the X class German U boats according to Abelson. Groves himself visited the NRL Uranium enrichment plant.

As quoted below:

http://books.nap.edu/books/0309060869/html/110.html
ROSS GUNN
May 12, 1897–October 15, 1966
BY PHILIP H. ABELSON

"Ross Gunn, who was a member of the federal government’s
S-1 uranium committee, communicated results of the isotope
experiments to committee chairman Lyman J. Briggs
in August 1942. This led in October 1942 to a visit to the
Naval Research Laboratory by General Leslie R. Groves and
Admiral W. R. Purnell. Later, in January 1943, a special
committee assembled by the Manhattan District inspected
the installation. The committee was impressed by the simplicity
of the equipment and commented favorably.
A Naval Research Laboratory report submitted to the
Bureau of Ships by Gunn in January 1943 pointed to the
advantages of using enriched uranium in nuclear reactors.
It would be a necessary step in creating a nuclear-powered
submarine." and

"Gunn also took part in obtaining blueprints of the most
advanced German submarine. Analysis showed that the energy
system of the submarine could be replaced by a shielded
nuclear reactor." ibid.

"The S-1 Uranium Committee was a Committee of the National Defense Research Committee that superseded the Briggs Advisory Committee on Uranium and later evolved into the Manhattan Project. " see:

http://www.answers.com/topic/s-1-uranium-committee

I conclude Brown was never free. He had controllers. His agenda wasn't exactly their agenda. The stuff he worked on and originated, at a certain point became classified at a higher level than he himself was. Any reference to him is fine, but reference to the work he did is still restricted. Meaning any chronological study of him and his work will be deliberately limited. And his work is still relevant.

http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/us ... pocean.htm
shows that Nautilus was modelled on German Type 21 U boat hull. Gunn involved in obtaining plans.

Project Nobska linked sub research, the NRL, silent subs and Polaris. Teller present and directed Livermore Labs to produce small high output polaris nuclear warhead.

www.osti.gov/accomplishments/pdf/DE00801539/017.pdf

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/w47.htm

Thresher was a sub based on Nobska design decisions, taking the Type 21 design concepts even further.

[Mikado14]

Does anyone ever watch the History channel? Does anyone know that this tragedy accounted for over 15% of all black Naval servicemen casualties? Does anyone know that this explosion was over 4 or 5 kilotons? Does anyone know that this was a munitions area? That amount of expolosives in one place is not unusual.

Look hard enough and you will see the phantoms in the forest. I for one believe it is a tragedy created by untrained personnel which was characteristic for the navy in the way they treated the black seaman.

Just my $1.15 for that cup at WaWa.

Mikado

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Now , you guys knew that you would be hearing from me.

Regarding the explosion at port. Horrendous accidents can happen. And it is not always traced to the lowly ( and perhaps black) kid on the loading dock. Sometimes it can be traced directly to the men who managed the port, owned the ships, directed the traffic. Its too bad actually that more people do not know about that explosion. Another bit of lost history.

And Langley. You forget. Gunn was not Townsend Browns superior. Townsend Brown was not in the Navy at the time, remember? He walked away in the fall of 1942. So help me see the connections that you are drawing then in light of that situation? You wrote:

"I conclude Brown was never free. He had controllers. His agenda wasn't exactly their agenda. The stuff he worked on and originated, at a certain point became classified at a higher level than he himself was. Any reference to him is fine, but reference to the work he did is still restricted. Meaning any chronological study of him and his work will be deliberately limited. And his work is still relevant. "

Not saying that what you say is impossible but I have been studying Townsend Brown now for quite a few years and my impression of him at the time and later in his life was that nobody was his boss.

Elizabeth

[Mikado14]

And a side message to Mr. Twigsnapper. When landing Sir you are supposed to keep all of your landing gears down. Bentfeather would have loved that ! Can't take you anyplace. Martin

Whoever was at the controls did a very good job. I suppose he will be walking for a while.

Mikado

[flowperson]

Once upon a time I had a good friend, a brother, who was a Navy vet, and who was one of those workers at Port Chicago before the disaster. I bought and gave him a book about the explosion which occured after the time that he was there. According to him the management and procedures at the facility were pretty sloppy to the extent that he felt that the Navy seemed to want to increase the chances of just such a thing happening.

He told me that when loading shells they would form long lines from here to there and toss shells meant for big guns from hand to hand in a rhythmic fashion to speed up the process of moving them from rail car to ship's hold. Fairly often stuff would be inadvertantly dropped while they were thrown from person to person. After all the shells could often weigh in the vicinity of 100 pounds. He was amazed that disasters didn't happen more often as the shells were dropped fairly often in the loading process. As it was some of his mates often ended up with crushed body parts because of the process. He was a big strapping guy so he didn't ever have many physical problems with the job and came home in one piece.

He was haunted by the experiences though and drank heavily to forget. He eventually committed suicide because of his memories and other problems that he had in his life, although he did live into his seventies.

It's interesting to note that Leslie Groves oversaw the construction of the Pentagon in 1940. Anyone got any ideas as to why the USA military establishment decided on a design to build, as their major headquarters, a nested five-sided building which really is a massive pagan symbol, the pentagram ? And does anyone know about a long-lasting rumor that there was once a nuclear reactor beneath the center of the Pentagon?

flow....

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Thank you so much Langley for what you wrote here which is drawn from this
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn= ... 9&page=110
(good picture of Ross Gunn too.)

"Ross Gunn, who was a member of the federal government’s
S-1 uranium committee, communicated results of the isotope
experiments to committee chairman Lyman J. Briggs
in August 1942. This led in October 1942 to a visit to the
Naval Research Laboratory by General Leslie R. Groves and
Admiral W. R. Purnell"

And Paul? When was it exactly that Townsend Brown resigned and walked out of the Navy?

Mr. Twigsnapper said once the best situation to avoid a confrontation, is to not be there in the first place. So your scenario of Dr. Brown being "drawn into " the Gunn operation might very well have happened IF HE HAD BEEN THERE.

Comments anybody? Am I off base? Elizabeth

[Paul S.]

"Ross Gunn, who was a member of the federal government’s S-1 uranium committee, communicated results of the isotope experiments to committee chairman Lyman J. Briggs
in August 1942. This led in October 1942 to a visit to the
Naval Research Laboratory by General Leslie R. Groves and
Admiral W. R. Purnell"

And Paul? When was it exactly that Townsend Brown resigned and walked out of the Navy?

Mr. Twigsnapper said once the best situation to avoid a confrontation, is to not be there in the first place. So your scenario of Dr. Brown being "drawn into " the Gunn operation might very well have happened IF HE HAD BEEN THERE.

https://www.ttbrown.com/defying_gravity ... rvice.html

The letter of resignation is dated Sept 30, 1942; The acknowledgement from the Navy is October 5, 1942 (with PSANDT -- Pay, Subsitence, and Travel, remember?) Two weeks later he was at Vega Aircraft in California.

'Zat what you needed to know? What's that do to the scenario Langley's trying to draw. What IS that scenario, anyway?

--PS

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Given the discharge ( resignation) dates mentioned above Langley, can you give us your best bet, revised edition? Elizabeth

[Langley]

Given the discharge ( resignation) dates mentioned above Langley, can you give us your best bet, revised edition? Elizabeth

Oh dear. I must say that when one of my type has a focus on a topic, it colors one's perceptions of everything else.

However, given this is a situation where connections are more important than usual (because of the clearly demonstrated suppression of relevant history), then the study of what are side issues may help in recovery that history.

In earlier posts I have cited the experiences of people such Dr Nello Pace and Dr Gofman. They were civilians. Pace gained information he wasnt cleared to know and thus had to "forget it". Gofman had evidence which led to him to disagree with his superiors and he was threatened when he spoke publically.

Civilians in possession of classified information are no different to servicemen in their subordination to the agencies of government who control the information and the access to it.

While I am learning here much more than I know, I can say I know people who as as ex service civilians who received phone calls after midnight telling them to shut up or face jail.

I cannot imagine, given the clearly documented suppression of the relevant history , that the work of Brown was not controlled. And if it was controlled, what Brown himself said about it publically, must in my view have been controlled. We have a tension here between a person living in a free society while his work was subject to classifaction.
Brown certainly was "redacted man". Whilst he would have fared far worse in the USSR, if his work was classified, then his undertakings would have been subjected to scrutiny, even at the same time as these undertakings were looked upon favorably from those in high places. If that was me, I wouldnt feel free or unconstained.

I am saying the applications of his work were wide and I am now convinced
his work was applicable to MED and AEC undertakings. And those organisations were intolerant of security breaches and both used grievous methods in order to control people, such as exclusion and ridicule and the suppression of documented history.

Brown associated with a least one person involved in work against the atomic bomb testing program. For such people FBI interest was usual. of note is http://www.dannen.com/szilard.html, information on Leo Szilard, the originator of the partition against the use of the bomb and who opposed the H bomb and became suspect. This resulted in an FBI investigation.

I see a constant thread of contact between Brown and people involved in the US atomic energy program throughout Paul's book, starting with Gunn pre war and continuing up to Chapter 62 so far. Whilst it can be shown Gunn worked with plans of advanced German U boats, and that the Nautilus hull was based on these plans, I cannot prove that these plans were the reason Brown went to Germany during the war. Browns work on a silent propulsion system is further documented in the current chapter (63), and it can be established that MED had taken control of Naval advanced propulsion systems from NRL during the war. Any system which relied on nuclear energy as an energy source was controlled by MED and AEC until Navy regained some autonomy post war. Teller was directly involved in the design of advanced subs such as the Thesher until at least the completion of the Polaris project. Any point of contact with any of these undertakings would require oversight of individuals and their knowledge. Brown's propulsion system certainly fits this. His status as a civilian is not relevant, his security clearance is . It appears his clearance was lower than the level demanded by the implications of his own work. The foregoing is merely my opinion. To that extent, he wasnt free to speak fully without consequence.

[Paul S.]

...kill me some times.

What is "MED" ?

--PS

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Going by context here it could be that Langley switched the letters by mistake and he meant MDE ...( Manhattan District Engineers ... what it was called before it became " the Manhattan Project." But I could really be wrong. So help Langley please because MED loses me too.

actually my favorite is SNAFUBAR.. no wait, I thing thats a combination. Maybe I just invented a new one! Not a chance! Elizabeth

[Victoria Steele]

Long lead in title but I sort of like it.

But you know what? This is what is concerning me now suddenly. I KNOW now that Dr. Brown has been busy with all this secret stuff and these meetings and " beating his fist on an Admirals desk " and all of that. BUT what about Josephine?

Paul writes that "Mame" went back to "visit friends near Laguna" I guess and ended up dying there rather suddenly. Now I know that they didn't get along when Josephine was a young wife and I can SURE understand that ( (DON'T EVEN GO THERE) But I do think that they were enjoying each others company at the end. So I find it really sad that Mame left and then died, never to return......... Sooooooo where does that leave Josephine?

She is up in some "camp" as far out of civilization as I think her husband could get her! She has a young toddler and a teenage son!.... and her husband is gone and I am sure hasn't told her where he has gone or when he will be back. Well now thats just frigging GREAT.

I would be, to put it mildly, just a little pissed off.

So leaving all of these Admirals to stew in their own juices, I hope that you talk about Josephine just a little because I really like the lady and I want to find out what is going on in her life right about now. Victoria

[Langley]

...kill me some times.

What is "MED" ?

--PS

Manhattan Engineer District.

[Langley]

Going by context here it could be that Langley switched the letters by mistake and he meant MDE ...( Manhattan District Engineers ... what it was called before it became " the Manhattan Project." But I could really be wrong. So help Langley please because MED loses me too.

actually my favorite is SNAFUBAR.. no wait, I thing thats a combination. Maybe I just invented a new one! Not a chance! Elizabeth

Manhattan Engineer District (MED), established by general order on August 13
Source: http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/groves_med.htm

"As the full measure of the dilemma in which he was now trapped began to dawn on him, Dr. Brown suddenly found himself in the midst of a rare and genuine burst of temper. .....
Finally, in a highly uncharacteristic moment, Brown pounded his fist on Admiral Radford’s desk ....." Paul S.

"Townsend Brown as having told him, “that BROWN said he went to Pearl Harbor where he demonstrated his propulsion principal in a model boat to a
group of Naval and Marine officers who, he said, were so impressed that they caused his discovery to be classified as a secret.â€