Chapter 62 - Meet the Browns of Ka-Lae-Hau

[Langley]

Langley,

Conjection or not I believe you have hit it square.

There was a feeling of " thumbing his nose" going on with Townsend Brown upon his return from Germany in 1945 and then Hawaii in the early 50s.I hadn't really known enough about what was going on in the background but you have certainly helped bring that into focus!

Putting out plans for a big lab to be named " Townsend Brown Foundation Radiation Laboratory" ( plans to build on 10 acres of prime and beautiful Dana Point real estate could be looked upon as a big nose thumb by the people you mentioned. But I hadn't really explored WHY they couldn't move against Dr. Brown " thumbing his nose at Groves" I agree with your thoughts, would have been a decidedly provocative move on Dr. Browns part.

And something very dramatic and interesting happened at what many have dubbed the " Pearl Harbor Demonsration". ( which I believe is the subject of Pauls next chapter) You and Paul are running parallel right now, so I am anxious to see him post that chapter and to see your reaction to it ( and of course, everybody elses too!) ( THURSDAY ??? Paul??? I thought I would throw that in there and save Victoria the trouble!).

Project Winterhaven? In the document, which I have just found from your and Twigsnapper's clues, http://www.qualight.com/kinetics/winter.htm

includes a chapter on "Detection of distant atomic explosions

Due to the tremendous momentary displacement of air and the gravitational disturbance resulting therefrom, there is reason to believe that the electrogravitational receiver may be one of the few devices capable of instant long-distance detection and ranging of atomic bomb explosions.

Washington, D.C.

Revised: 1/1/53"

Teller would have wanted to strangle him!!! In fact Teller and the AEC undertook a series of underground tests aimed at calibrating seismic instruments to detect USSR detonations in order to verify the LTBT. But he would have considered anyone capable of detecting his own secret (at the time) atomic tests a threat and would have invoke National Security Classification and killed it if he could. But he couldnt. Brown must have driven him nuts. This Winterhaven document is a public document.

The document also mentions:

"ELECTROGRAVITATIONAL COMMUNICATION SYSTEM:

(Electrogravitic induction between systems of capacitors involving propagation and reception of gravitational waves)

Project started at Pearl Harbor in 1950. Theoretical background examined and preliminary demonstrations witnessed by Electronics Officer and Chief Electronics Engineer at Pearl Harbor Navy Yard, Receiver already constructed - detects cosmic noise which, according to supporting evidence, appears to emanate from that portion of the sky near the constellation Hercules (16h RA, 400 N Decl.). Transmitter designed and now partly completed, Radiation is more penetrating than radio (has been observed to pass readily through steel shielding and more than 15 feet of concrete).

- 10 -

In 1952 a short-range transmitting and receiving system was completed and demonstrated in Los Angeles. Transmission of an actual message was obtained between two rooms - a distance of approximately 35 feet.

Transmission was easily obtained through what was believed t o be adequate electromagnetic shielding, but this test must bear repeating under more rigorous control. See definitive experiments (Group B) hereinafter proposed."


And it also includes the polarability of ions. Which is of course the way it is as ions are either electron short or electron surplus (+) or (-). If they could be orientated by an imposed field, then polarised ions in a medium (sea water, air) would be reactive electrically in a charged field, and thus provide a means of propulsion. Gamma directed by wave guide and shielding from a reactor to the front of a vessel would heavily ionize large volumes of water, giving off a blue glow in the process. Once inside a magnetic field they would be orientated and reactive. Propulsion by direct coupling of ionising radiation. Minimal equipment, no moving parts, electricity by thermocouple for the magnetic field and thats it. No screw.

Would kill fish though.

Teller would love it. But Teller would be small fry.

Have to do more looking at Project Winterhaven.

All of this stuff is applicable to the primary goals of the NRL, the coms system alone would make life far easier for submariners. And the importance of silent drive cant be over estimated.

Thanks Elizabeth.

PS

Interesting: http://www.seaspower.com/Movingbeyond-LaViolette.htm

Hmm, Colorado Springs again. http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=4677
"General Bertrandias is rated a command pilot. (Up to date as of October 1953)"
Up to date as of 1953? but he died in 1961 and its 2007 now!! So what happened from 53 to 61? The official military biography site aint saying.

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

As I said Langley, you are RIGHT ON TOP of the information that Paul is getting ready to post. Part of that information from OTHER WRITERS is included in that link that you gave us. I say OTHER WRITERS because what has been public .... is basically what is below ..... until this next posting!

http://www.seaspower.com/Movingbeyond-LaViolette.htm ................

"The Pearl Harbor Demonstration. Around 1953, Brown conducted a demonstration for top brass from the military. He flew a pair of 3 foot diameter discs around a 50 foot course tethered to a central pole. Energized with 150,000 volts and emitting ions from their leading edge, they attained speeds of several hundred miles per hour. The subject was thereafter classified.

Project Winterhaven. Brown submitted a proposal to the Pentagon for the development of a Mach 3 disc shaped electrogravitic fighter craft. Drawings of its basic design are shown in one of his patents. They are essentially large scale versions of his tethered test discs".................

But now I detect one of those really odd " cosmic snaps" . What brought the name General Bertrandias to your attention specifically? Its not a random question so when you get a chance I would really like to know why you felt that it was important to mention him? when you have time of course. Thanking you so much, in advance. Elizabeth

[grinder]

Was that what you called it Elizabeth, to describe when information seems to " snap" out of the ether at you. Someone says something and SNAP it connects with something that you happened to know. Its like nerve endings only here its spooky action at a distance.

I just had read page 30 of " The Hunt For Zero Point" by Nick Cook. And of course I am carefully rereading all that he wrote about Townsend Brown trying to figure how he could have missed what was going on right in front of his nose, but then he wasn't the man picked I guess and that makes all the difference.

Back to the COSMIC SNAP Here is what I had just read..........................................................

“From 1945 until 1952 little is known about Browns activities but based on what happened next it is clear that along the way he returned from Hawaii to Los Angeles where he established the Townsend Brown Foundation.

In 1952 the Foundation received an unannounced visit by Major General Victor E. Bertrandias of the U.S. Air Force. I learned of this thanks to a recovered transcript of a phone conversation between Bertrandias and another USAF general called Craig, whose job description was not immediately clear. The transcript had been forwarded to me by Tom Valone at the Integrity Research Institute. It made clear that Bertrandias was astounded by what he witnessed.

“ It sounds terribly screwy but Friday I went down with Lehr, a man named Lehr, to a place called the Townsend Brown Foundation and believe it or not I saw a model of a flying saucer. Bertrandias reported. “ Noâ€

[Paul S.]

Well now, this is quite a research team we seem to be assembling here. I am IMPRESSED!

But first...

Notice how quiet things are from Paul. He must be busy writing and I'll bet its going to be good so I don't want to stress him out unfairly. I figure when you come up for a breath of air I would be curious about your response to some of the things that have been written here on the forum in the last week.

Victoria is right, I've been quiet because I've had my nose buried here...

I'm taking a minute to check in here and acknowledge some of the things that are being discussed. There are many points coming up that are serendipitously pertinent to places where our story is going next.

First of all,

I was thinking Pugwash as in the anti bomb ... movement...

A few days after the publication of the Russell-Einstein Manifesto Mr. Cyrus Eaton sent a letter to Bertrand Russell offering to finance the Conference of scientists which was called for in the Manifesto, and suggesting that it be held in Pugwash, Nova Scotia.

Oh, thank you for clarifying THAT. I wound up going down the same dead end everybody else did when I looked up "Pugwash." NOW it makes perfect sense, and I agree, there WAS something very "Pugwash" about Dr. Brown in that regard. VERY.

Langley, your whole dissertation on the subject of the anti-bomb (as opposed to anti-nuclear, right) movement was very timely and totally fascinating. Where do you come up with this stuff? I've never read any of that before.

For our purposes, it's timely because just yesterday I stopped at a point where those themes begin to enter the story.

Is anybody familiar with the date August 29, 1949? Know what happened on that date? "Joe 1" ring any bells? That's the name the U.S. intelligence community gave to the Soviet Union's first successful atomic bomb test, on Aug 29, 1949.

The date is epochal, obviously, because it is the starting point of the era of the "balance of terror," the first step in the escalation of the Cold War into the international death-dance known as "Mutuallly Assured Destruction."

However, if I understand my sources right, it is also a pivotal date in our own story, because it was shortly after that date that Townsend Brown set up shop at Pearl Harbor and demonstrated... something... for some Admirals.

Those of you who have seen the Las Vegas presentation have some idea what happened after that.

Anyway, the reason I'm writing this here is just let you all know that that's roughly where I am in Chapter 63 at the moment. There are certain stages that have to be set and back-stories that have to be told before everything that happens next in the Townsend Brown story can be properly told, and I pretty much realized yesterday I have a bit of homework to do before I can get on with finishing the next chapter.

Through Paul's book, I have found the story of Gunn. It is a story the routine sources ignore. The history of the Manhattan Project is incomplete without the Naval Research Labs contribution. esp the Uranium enrichment breakthrough at the Philidephia Naval ShipYard. The popular mythos of the Philly Experiment thus appears a cover story.

I confess, I'd forgotten all about that reference to Ross Gunn back in Chapter 26 and had to go back and find it. Followed that lead and found more or less what you're talking about. It was Gunn that said (paraphrasing here) "We got hosed" when the Manhattan Project stepped in and took over the Navy's nascent nuclear propulsion program in the 1930s. You're right, it's a fascinating and oft-overlooked bit of our history, but I'm not sure yet I want to go so far as to say that the "mythos of TPX" was a cover story for THAT. Y'all know how I feel about spending too much time on that subject, though I expect to get to it in due course.

And I personally at that point leap off into the Starfish Prime Project.

Starfish Prime? Another new one to me. A-Googling we go, and find this:

http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/nblast.htm

Which is interesting because it mentions an event in 1958:

Between August 27, 1958 and September 6, 1958, the United States conducted Operation ARGUS about 1,100 miles southwest of Capetown, South Africa, Schwarz said. This was the only clandestine test series conducted during the entire 17-year period of post-war atmospheric nuclear testing. Specially modified Lockheed X-17a, three-stage ballistic missiles, were fired from the USS Norton Sound, each carrying a low yield (1.5 kiloton) W25 warhead. Detonation occurred at about 300 miles altitude.

The idea that "something happened" in August, 1958 that altered the course of Dr. Brown's activities is a question we've been circling for a long time without coming up with any specific events that might precipitate such a course correction. Seeing that such a secret atomic test -- which might have had an impact on orbital communications -- is one more possibility to consider. Thanks for tossing that bit of spice into the stew.

Moving on... ladygrady, your post brushes right up against some very interesting possibilities, especially when considered in light of Langley's suggestion of a " special relationship" between the Navy and The Caroline Group. You mention this paragraph in Chapter 26:

"The Navy-Princeton Expedition in 1932 was one of a decade-long series of submarine voyages — most conducted under the auspices of the Dutch Navy — on which Dr. Meinesz had measured gravity fluctuations at sea. He was particularly intrigued when he discovered anomalous gravity effects in the vicinity of the deep trenches that cut through the ocean floor in some places. In one voyage during the mid-1920s, he detected anomalous gravity belts running parallel to the deep-sea trenches in the vicinity of the Indonesian Islands, which phenomenon are known to this day as the “Meinesz Belts.â€

[Victoria Steele]

Thanks so much for your nice long message. I know that we all appreciate it. I cerainly do.

And some of this information is so new to me too that I am having to take some time absorbing all of it.

Joe 1 huh. News to me. Though I knew that the Russians were quick to develop the bomb mainly because for all of what they called their security the Manhattan Project leaked like an everlovin seive. The Russians knew about the bomb long before we exploded the test. And it was no real surprise to them that it worked. Stalin apparently already knew much of the details. Ah, welcome to the new age America.

Now, I gotta go out and find some more interesting and pertinent information because I don't want ladygrady to get all the fun
"Moving on".you said.." ladygrady, your post brushes right up against some very interesting possibilities, especially when considered in light of Langley's suggestion of a " special relationship" between the Navy and The Caroline Group"

Maybe I should go to that subject. Oh I do like " brushing up against interesting possibilities " too! Victoria

[Victoria Steele]

I believe that Martin wrote this

viewtopic.php?p=468#468

Which is sort of interesting. Thanks Martin for the look into Admiral Rickover, since we seem to be looking harder in his direction now. Victoria

[Victoria Steele]

Elizabeth and Paul.

I don't understand why Dr. Brown would intentionally provoke an outfit like Groves' or the early AEC. Like Langley said they probably could make things pretty terrible for someone they targeted. But I don't think that Groves would go on that kind of a hunt himself because it would draw too much attention to what he was doing.

Langley said that the FBI would probably be running files on anyone who was one of these dissenters.( which would work alright for Groves, I am sure) So that probably would include Bradford Shank too. And anyone around Bradford Shank, which would point fingers right at Dr. Brown. I still don't get why he would put himself in that sort of position because he obviously knew how things worked. I do agree with you though. In that age having something called a "Radiation Laboratory" would be jst asking for attention from those guys.

And then you throw " Flying Saucers " o top of all of that and its no wonder that generals were calling each other and saying " Do you know who this guy is?" Hardly the way to keep a low profile, which again is very unlike Dr. Brown don't you think? Victoria

[Langley]

So you see Langley when you mentioned the name BERTRANDIAS I went HUH? Grinder

In the course of a net search for stuff related to Winterhaven, I came upon a report mentioning him visiting Brown in Calif. So I went to a military site to see what his biography said about him. The official biography truncates prior to the visit! !

Very Manhattan, that.

Tends to verify the info in the world where "white is black and black is white".

Never heard the name before. But if one is after verfied official official pronouncements, military sites can be useful.

BTW Sagan and his Soviet counterpart came up with the "Nuclear Winter" scenario as a result of full scale nuclear exchange.

Winter haven. A way of operating in extremely hostile conditions. Not just balmy Honolulu.

Manhattan Project transferred to AEC in 1947. Brown in Washington in 48. Time right to move? To wrest information back so Navy could again research without oversight of Groves/Teller?

I am not expert on Brown, but it seems to me that the nuclear program was important as 1. Nuclear weapons are huge ion generators. 2. The electro and gravitation effects. Including earth circuits and ionisphere current boosting.

[Langley]

Well Well.
suzuki-t.hp.infoseek.co.jp/pdf/honda.pdf (5 pages)

"Brief overview of the Honda experiment by using AC voltage
impressed to the capacitor"

"Takaaki Musha E-mail: [email protected], [email protected]
1. Introduction
To confirm the Biefeld-Brown effect (B-B effect), engineers at the HONADA R&D Co.,Ltd conducted experiments in 1995 and 1996, respectively, by applying DC 18kV and AC pulses to the capacitor. By their experimental results, they found a new phenomenon that the weight loss of the capacitor under AC pulses was greater than that of DC exposures. Summary of their experimental results are illustrated in this article."

"5. Summary of the experiment
From experimental results conduced by using AC pulses, the Honda research group confirmed the B-B effect for the capacitor under AC high potential electric field. The observed weight reduction was much greater than measured and predicted weight reductions of the capacitor under the same intensity of applied electric field.
References
1.H. Okamoto, A.Nagao, M. Hirakawa and H.Nakayama (1996), (private communication)
2.T. Musha, The Possibility of Strong Coupling between Electricity and Gravitation,
Issue 53,Infinite Energy, (2004)61-64"

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Langley.

You said here that the " WinterHaven document is a public document" and that is quite true right now. But if you follow its trail back to the source, you will find that it initially was supposed to be a " confidential paper"

In fact the one that has been mentioned I believe ,the famous #36. Copies of that particular set of pages have sort of made the rounds! Cook mentions them in his book " The Hunt for Zero Point"

page31 Cook says “ The conversation shifted inevitably toward Townsend Brown and Winterhaven. It was then that I mentioned I would give my eyeteeth to know what was in it. A week later to my absolute astonishment a copy of Winterhaven ( registered copy#36) landed on my desk. Attached to the front page was a note from Valone. Thanks to the Freedom of Information act there was no need for me and my teeth to part company he said. I smiled. The man was a one stop shop.â€

[Langley]

(Langley, there were some quote/unquote probs with this post, and it repeats my entire post from earlier, so I have taken the moderator's liberty of editing it. I have not changed anything you've said, just, I hope, made it more readable, OK? --PS)

Is anybody familiar with the date August 29, 1949? Know what happened on that date? "Joe 1" ring any bells? That's the name the U.S. intelligence community gave to the Soviet Union's first successful atomic bomb test, on Aug 29, 1949.

I just posted a detailed reply to this and the line went down and I lost it.

brifely, in reverse order, There was a spy in the uK contigent at Los Alamos and he had a Soviet handler in London. He gave the structural details of the Nagasaki bomb. But they were already well on the way. As the Allies didnt know if Fuchs acted alone, EVERYONE who deviated was suspect. So when Oppy refused to help with the H bomb and actively opposed him, the FBI interviewed him, he was suspected of haning communist sympathies and he lost his security clearance. Such was the tenor of the times.

ARGUS: Go here: http://www.dtra.mil/newsservices/fact_s ... ntpr_argus

This is the official Defense Threat Reduction Agency site description of Argus, and Starfish Prime and other high altitude detonations sought the same weapons effects:

The results of the ARGUS operation proved the validity of the
NB!!
Christofilos theory. The establishment of an electron shell derived from neutron and beta decay of fission products and ionization of device materials in the upper fringe of the atmosphere was demonstrated. The operation not only provided data on
military considerations
but also produced a great mass of
geophysical data,
pure scientific material of great value" This is an official US government site.

Again, Starfish Prime demonstrated Electromagnetic pulse boost by ionisphere, boosted induced earth electromagnetic effects, boosed electrical earth currents, and increased radiation in the K and L shells of ionisphere, such that the blanket shorting out of enemy missiles systems (so switching them to "off" such was the Soviet/US fail safes) remained a hope via ionisphere boosted induced currents, caused by the Argus detonations, burning out the enemy missiles electronics.

"The organization conducting these tests was Task Force 88, a naval organization consisting of nine ships and approximately 4,500 men. A few specialists from the other services and the Atomic Energy Commission and their contractors were with the fleet. Coordinated measurement programs using satellite, rocket, aircraft, and surface stations were carried out by the services and other government agencies and contractors throughout the world. The ships of Task Force 88 were the antisubmarine warfare support aircraft carrier USS TARAWA (CVS-40), the destroyers USS BEARSS (DD-654) and USS WARRINGTON (DD-843), the destroyer escorts USS COURTNEY (DE-1021) and USS HAMMERBERG (DE-1015), the fleet oilers USS NEOSHO (AO-143) and USS SALAMONIE (AO-26), the missile trials ship USS NORTON SOUND (AVM-1), and the seaplane tender USS ALBEMARLE (AV-5)."

For films of Argus:
http://www.nv.doe.gov/library/films/film.aspx?ID=14

In depth electrical earth current and other data (sanatised of actual figures) for Starfish Prime exists at these sites. (Starfish Prime Technical Results Manual) at :
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=ge ... =ADA955411
(2mb download once you hit "Handle" link)

eg: quote from doc "The Starfish prime event ( detonated at l00 1n
altitude SSW of Juhnsto, Islelid at 2300 hours, Honolulu time on July 8,
1962) significantly increased the understanding of high altitude nuclear
detonations and their effects. As an aid to penetration for incoming
missiles by disrupting enemy anti-missile radars, Starfish Prime was not
as effective as anticipated. Detonation degradation of communications
and radar surveillance capabilities were found to be appreciably less
than expected. Some data were obtained on the direct effects of q bomb

x rays on materials carried on pods near the burst; most pod experiments
were not as successful as desired because of pod stabilization and
positioning difficulties.
Beta ray and debris pancakes
were formed along magnetic field lines north of the burst at a distance
VL of 600 km at an altitude of 120 to 150 km. The effects of these pancakes
were of comparatively short durations. A pancake was also formed to the
south of the burst along field lines, but a significant panceke did not
form under the burst. The major visible effects of these pancakes lasted
for a number of minutes; an auroral gýow was still in evidence four hours
after detonation in the north conjugate area; ionospheric disturbances
in the south conjugate area lasted for many hours. Significant amounts
of debris were deposited along the manetic field lines intersecting the
r bu-st location at altitudes vell above that of the burst."

Toc: "TABLE OF CONTENTS
Page Abstract 3 I. Introduction 6 II. General Summary of Results 13
III. Data Compilation 24 A. Seismic and Pressure Measurements 24
B. Neutron Measurements 26 C. 0 and 7 Ray Measurements 30
D. X Ray Measurements and Direct X Ray Effects Measurements 3

E. Light and Thermal Measurements -

F. Measurements of Electromagnetic Signal Due to the Weapon 42

G. Biomedical Measurements 46

H. Measurements of Effects on Radar 47

I. Direct Ionization Measurements 52

J. Communications and Ionospheric Disturbance

L Measurements 53 NB:

K. Magnetic Field Measurements and Earth Current Measurements 66

L. Miscellaneous Measurements 70
Appendix 1. TVJ 8.1.1 Los Alamos Scientific laboratory 4eliminary
Field Report. Status as of H + 5 days. H. Hoerlin,
1ASL Al-i" end quote. The same stuff would have been gathered re Prime.
Indications are, to repeat, that with the advent of the LTBT, imposed in 1963, experimentation re these effects may have continued via the ionisphere heaters located at Colorado and elsewhere and currently via HAARP, Alaska. http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/
(official HAARP homepage)

See also Defense Technical Information Centre (US Gov official doc)
publication A Model for Field Aligned Scattering (FAS) from Heater Modified Ionosphere. at
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=ge ... =AD0781818

(From site abstract: Descriptors : *Ionospheric modification, *Radar cross sections, Electron density, Heaters, Backscattering, Computer applications, Continuous waves
Subject Categories : ATMOSPHERIC PHYSICS ACTIVE AND PASSIVE RADAR DETECTION & EQUIPMENT Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE)

Where do I come up with this info? I was a radiological Safety NCO at a place in the Aust Army that repaired military & CD field radiation detecting instruments (mainly PDR27As and alpha detectors) and which helped in the monitoring of French nuclear fallout as it arrived in Australia in the 70s. Ive been looking into things ever since. I maintain contact with Aust Nuclear Veterans groups, having written articles for them, govt submissions etc and helped with a Museum exhibition on the atomic tests.

The UK struck out on its own, having been excluded from owing US bombs under its own command and control due to the Fuchs leak. The US considered the UK a security risk and denied them the (previously partly joint) data to build their own, the UK having to start again. They used what they remembered of the Nagasaki bomb, calling theirs "Blue Danube" and dropping 12 of them on Australia in the test series from 1952 to 57. The Blue Danbue was obselete by 1962.

thanks Fuchs. The Rosenbergs were innocent probably, the US and UK still dont know if Fuchs acted alone.

A good way of simply tracking the stuff chronologically is by timeline such as at :
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/timel ... extxt.html

I dont think one can look at any one with out reference to the times they lived in. Brown had to keep his mouth shut.

[Langley]

Langley.

You said here that the " WinterHaven document is a public document" and that is quite true right now. But if you follow its trail back to the source, you will find that it initially was supposed to be a " confidential paper"


.

Yea, thanks Elizabeth. The Universities.

[grinder]

Langley,

again, the caveman rises to the challenge of the campfire conversation with the astute remark ...... " What?"

Universities? Can we go further? You always have my attention! grinder

[grinder]

Langley,

Boy, you are a wealth of ground floor information and I want you to know I really appreciate the stuff that you send in this direction. It worries me sometimes that I haven't known about some of these tests. But I guess thats part of being an American sometimes in the world. We live with our head in the sand most of the time.

I did not know that there was such a rift between the United States and England after the war regarding atomic testing. And this was because the US blamed England for the Fuchs mole ... tracing back to controllers in London? I have been trying to read up on that and I can see that even during the war the English were worried about being infiltrated in their intelligence agencies. And of course that "virus" was introduced to the Americans to through English contacts probably

. Seems to me that both countries were at fault for being lax . Its a shame. It looks like to me the US took the opportunity (through the blaming process) to take over where before they would have had to share information with the English. Like the big kid suddenly on the block. America was gathering her toys and was not going to share.

And thats a tough deal for the Australians. Sheeze. Did not know about those 12 bombs. The only reference to Australia and "atomic bombs" I had when I was a kid was the old movie " On the Beach"


Remember the chapter about DR. Brown in Germany? That was a classic example of the US trying to put the English to the curb during those intelligence gathering projects! Just one example. ( Groves at work there with the ALSOS teams.)

The only thing that "turned things around" for the English interest in what was happening with Dr. Brown ( and got Mr. Twigsnapper/ORiley back in the jeep) was influence from and officer representing the British? If I read that right? All flags flying was the name of the chapter.

Still chewing on all that you have sent. HONDA????? well, go figure. grinder

[Langley]

Langley,

again, the caveman rises to the chalenge of the campfire conversation with the astute remark ...... " What?"

Universities? Can we go further. You always have my attention! grnder

Well, I refer to the detailed organisation chart for Winterhaven.

After the DoD and the Contract Consultants, there is Stanford Research Institute, (RAND in there I guess), Universtiy of Chicago (where the actual studies of tissue for Project Sunshine was undertaken by the by), the Franklin Institute, The Institute for Advanced Studies.

SRI and Uni Chicago were both already in the AEC/Teller loop. They were doing highly secret work for Project Sunshine.
eg memos recorded by DOE at:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/radiation/ ... br11i1.txt
Mentions a Uni Chicago memo re the secret work, the involvement
of Dr Libby (Teller's offsider) the era (1953), RAND's Santa Monica division involvement, the secret nature of the work performed is re confirmed. "We are now going ahead with foriegn bone collection" - Dr Dudley to Dr Libby, Cover story devised for foreign governments in order to gain access the needed human tissue).

Relevance: Its the way things worked at that time. All the moves and counter moves and lack of progess reports in plain sight re Winterhaven is par for the course for classified work. Those memos above date from 1953. Brown's Winterhaven proposal can be dated to 1/1/1953, (page 25and the revision date of the chart) and hits on University of Chicago at the very time it is neck deep in highly classified fallout work for AEC, including the collection of human tissue from foreign governments. Obviously an organisation approved for highly classified work.

SRI and RAND are linked I think. Rand helped designed both Project Sunshine and its cover stories as a development of Project Gabriel. Brown keeps to the same loop of security cleared institutions. Being on Brown's chart, I presume at some stage Brown envisaged approaching those institutions. In the matter of funding and lobbying for projects, fore warned is fore armed. These places were already doing secret research for AEC. Easy for DoD to concur with the use of them for Winterhaven. Did Brown approach them and do they have documents by way of admin files relating to this potentially lucrative research? It is not uncommon for people in Brown's position to have informal contacts within research organisations and to prime them to lobby for the work. Its one of the ways research facilities gain funds - by lobbying and networking.

Unless it never got that far. To me, forgive me for my partisan outlook, it seems Brown was linking in to a Loop of Usual Suspects, for the obvious reason that the Powers had already security cleared this lot to a high level.

And that begs the question : How did Brown know ? Because he was in the same loop, and had the same or higher clearance it appears to me.

And that I think is what I have been looking for. For Brown to know about the University of Chicago's status in these things, something not made public until the time of President Clinton, what does that say about Brown's clearance? Picking on the U of Chicago specially shows a certain awareness of what was going on where. Did he also have access to the personnel and did he correspond with them about his project, and if so, does documentation exist at the University of Chicago or elsewhere?

What I am saying is this really. Brown knew that the people he was dealing with were capable of making alien abductions seem like a Sunday picnic.

The staff of the University of Chicago, or those staff working at the behest of Teller, eg Libby, were in 1953, Look, we want some of your recently deceased citizens bones so we can assay them for natural radium. All the while knowing the real reason was to monitor the radio strontium from nuclear fallout. Now, that sets a base line for what was acceptable behaviour at the Top Secret Level at that time. Its the most controversial aspect of the entire program. So up pops Brown and suggests U of Chicago, in the very year it was doing its deeds for Teller and the AEC.

Again, Brown is shadowing, and attempting to use, Teller's network. It leaps out at me. Perhaps its just me.