Chapter 59: The Whole Deal

Use this section for any discussion specifically related to the chapters posted online of the unfolding biography, "Defying Gravity: The Parallel Universe of T. Townsend Brown
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grinder
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agendas

Post by grinder »

Mikado,

Morgan was wrong saying that everyone has an agenda?

How can you be alive and not have one. Even a baby has an agenda! Agendas!! stay fed, stay warm, stay dry, have Mom hold me, love me..... lets see, and I haven't even scratched the surface. And thats from an innocent child! Just get a little bit of life piled onto those needs and you have stuff like " Have people respect me and what I do or what I stand for , like me, fear me?, listen to me? Respond to me? Do what I want them to do? Love me? Funny how it all goes around in a circle. Maybe agendas are just needs put into action.

So I am like Elizabeth right now. I just don't quite get what you are asking here. grinder
twigsnapper
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timing

Post by twigsnapper »

Paul,

Sometimes timing is everything

http://www.bonus.com/contour/Truman_Kid ... 102048.htm

twigsnapper
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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I am so ignorant

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Mr. Twigsnapper,

You are so patient, and I am so ignorant!

Following your lead here I looked up Col. Louis Johnson and came up with this http://www.amherst.edu/magazine/issues/ ... _roll.html

And the thing most interesting so far is this statement

"Unlike some of the most powerful secretaries of defense—including Robert McNamara (1961-68) and Caspar Weinberger (1981-87)—Johnson had prior service in the national security establishment. From 1937 to 1940, Johnson was assistant secretary of war. At that time there was only one assistant secretary, and Johnson regularly met with President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. More importantly, it was Johnson who laid the groundwork for the industrial mobilization and procurement reform that enabled the United States to win World War II. Johnson also was responsible for promoting Marshall to Army chief of staff, over several more senior generals."

And reading between the lines here am I wrong to guess that his path and William Stephensons paths crossed more than once? Just throwing a marker down like you grinder because I am so far lost! Elizabeth
Mikado14
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purpose, agenda and goals oh my!

Post by Mikado14 »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:Sticking my nose in this conversation, if its alright Mikado. I am a little confused with the question you posed. So I am going to rephrase it and if you could comment on that?....................... you wrote:

"With all due respect sir, and you know I mean it but, you and Morgan are wrong. I believe that Morgan needs to clarify that a bit or was he always so paranoid?


Back in the late 60's and early 70's, one of the sayings of the time was "Everyone has an agenda, so what's yours?" and that went along with "Don't trust anyone over 30". I interpret both of those as paranoidal statements in that the first implies some nefarious mission that will impose upon the person asking the question in some manner. The second is, well, no explanation should be necessary.

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote: You make the point that you believe that Morgan needs to clarify his statement that "Everyone has an agenda" but then you proceed to describe the meaning of the word quite well and I see nothing in that description which would lend toward paranoia, it seems just a rational view of the world around all of us. Where do you see Paranoia in what he has stated as a matter of fact? and I wonder too why you see it? (Now THATS paranoia!!)


I did not describe the word(s), I cut and pasted. I have agendas also. Everyday I awake and say "now what is on the agenda for today?". These are jobs to get done, tasks to be completed but they are not the purpose of my existence. To view the statement in the context that I have stated then I agree, there is no paranoia there. However, if we are to take Morgan's line of work and the very same statement a measure of paranoia and cynicism are present. That is what more than likely has kept him alive, if he is.
Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote: From my end of things, if anyone had a right to a paranoid viewpoint it would be someone in Morgans line of work but I don't really believe that it is reflected in this particular statement.
If what you say is true then why was the statement ever referenced by Mr. Twigsnapper?
Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote: I agree that there are group agendas and hidden agendas and perverted agendas and a whole slew of other descriptions for them .... but they are still there, right? So the statement that " everyone has one" seems to me a statement of well considered thought.
I suppose so, as I said previously, I have one everyday.
Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote: Justice took such an offense to others asking what his agenda was, is that all part of translating it as such a negative thing?



And perhaps rightly so. Maybe the question should have been what was his purpose for the lengthy posts or what is your goal?
Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote: I have alot of agendas too Mikado, some more personal than others and I would think that there are many out there just like me. We , I should hope , all have reasons for doing what we do.
Then I will take that to mean that agendas are goals and goals are purposes and they are the same.
Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote: Just ONE reason I want to do a good job here helping Paul. Looking further into the future is not a bad thing, is it?
I would hope that you would know me a little better by now from this forum and know that I would not disagree with that statement.

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:
Mikado14 wrote: From what has been written, I can't believe Morgan would be such an absolutist but hey, he could be nothing more than a character in a narrative.
huh? An Absolutists or just a character in a narative???? Was that the question? I don't understand it , if it was.
No question, a statement. "EVERYONE HAS AN AGENDA" statement implies the entire population of the world and that would be an absolute statement. How about a Tibetan monk? or a Buddhist? Do they have an agenda, a goal or a purpose? As to the character in a narrative, well, I am only a character on this forum, no one really knows who I am or if I exist.

I would have said MOST EVERYONE HAS AN AGENDA but then I have a tendency to be a sucker when it comes to people and try to balance that with a modicum of cynicism, sometimes the proportions become reversed.

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Mikado14
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Re: agendas

Post by Mikado14 »

grinder wrote: How can you be alive and not have one. Even a baby has an agenda! Agendas!! stay fed, stay warm, stay dry, have Mom hold me, love me..... lets see, and I haven't even scratched the surface. And thats from an innocent child! Just get a little bit of life piled onto those needs......
You said it, not I. Those are not agendas, they are needs for survival. If you interpret them as an agenda, then so be it. Getting up in the morning and going to work is an agenda but it is NOT my purpose in life.

grinder wrote: and you have stuff like " Have people respect me and what I do or what I stand for , like me, fear me?, listen to me? Respond to me?
Maybe the things you have mentioned are earned rewards. I know that respect is something earned and what I stand for in life is my mettle and that is earned as well. "like me, fear me?" I could care less on those two and if I want people to listen and I speak intelligently, they will, if they are so inclined.
grinder wrote:Do what I want them to do? Love me? Funny how it all goes around in a circle. Maybe agendas are just needs put into action.

"Do what I want them to do"
Is that an agenda or control? As to love being an agenda well, in some manner on a Saturday night I suppose so but if we're talking about a long term commitment of both sharing the physical and the mental and spiritual, then to me, that is not an agenda. As to agendas being needs, you don't have my vote on that one old friend.

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Paul S.
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Between the Lines

Post by Paul S. »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:And reading between the lines here am I wrong to guess that his path and William Stephensons paths crossed more than once? Just throwing a marker down like you grinder because I am so far lost!
Another character in an expanding cast. A Caroliner, perhaps?

I really haven't sorted out the ebbs and flows of national security intrigue in the Truman years, other than the observation that things went -- what's the expression? oh yes -- all "pearshaped" before Roosevelt's body was cold.

So it seems to me the interesting passage in the review of this book about Louis Johnson that Elizabeth found is this one:
One should read this book not just to learn more about Louis Johnson, but also for insight into how Roosevelt and Truman made critical decisions. Roosevelt emerges as a political genius with a firm grasp of geopolitics, while Truman appears to be a person with limited strategic vision.
That seems to have some bearing on the "Stephenson" nexus, and some will recall that Truman was not all that hospitable at first to Wm. Donovan and actually dismantled the OSS before using its operational models (and personnel) as the foundation for the CIA when it was authorized by the National Security Act in 1947.

And then there's this:
As the authors note, “Truman’s decision to enter the Korean War and protect Formosa are evidence that he and his principal advisers had little grasp of the real threats to U.S. national security.
... which sounds disturbingly familiar in light of today's geo-political entanglements. Maybe Shrub has read some history, after all... hasn't he likened himself to Truman on occasion?

And a meeting between Odlum and Truman in October 48? No kidding? Where are the flies on the wall at that meeting?

Oh, and that Sandia "Z Pinch" machine? Another elephant gun on a squirrel hunt. The term "elegant" hardly applies when you've seen what the Farnsworth fusor could do, all in a stainless steel sphere the size of a basketball.

Hope everybody's having a nice weekend. We're serving burgers and wings on the deck in about an hour.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Chris Knight
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Post by Chris Knight »

Hmmm, I don't know. I think "elegant" is just what I would call Farnsworth's fusor, but I think we are thinking of a different interpretation of the term.

It's worth mentioning again that inventions based on the fundamental laws of the universe can be recognized by their elegance and conceptual simplicity. For example, the interaction between magnetite and a conducting material, or the interaction between electrostatic charge and gravity.

The electrostatic containment field that Farnsworth used in his fusor is very elegant (and beautiful) in it's construction and design. Of course, I'm looking at it from the viewpoint of the interaction between the lines of force, etc. not what the end result is, which would be more along the lines of "awesome."

Have a great Memorial Day weekend everyone. I'm thankful.
Andrew
Qualight Environmental
(http://www.qualight.com, http://www.qualightenv.com, http://www.qualightscp.com)

"If you think the situation is under control, then you don't truly understand the situation."
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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point for our

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

After rereading the exchange above I think that you have indeed scored better on this round Mikado and perhaps Morgan would agree with you that maybe he should have said "Most People" have an agenda.

Who knows, maybe he did say it that way and maybe I misquoted .. or if he did say that ( and Paul would have to help me there with his original quote, but if he did say that perhaps you were right also in pointing out that it was reflecting his state of mind about the world around him..

Its a beautiful Saturday here and headed for a lovely Sunday ..... and as beautiful a monday. I am staying home the entire time. Just TRY to get gas money out of me.(this weekend at least!) Thinking of all of you too and wishing you the very best!

Went to see the Pirates movie! Talk about a hatful of agendas! But everybody. I watched them all walking across that white, powdery sand with the beautiful blue water beyond and I thought, "My I wonder if thats what it was like for Morgan and Linda ".... and then I noticed that it was filmed partially in the Bahamas and I had to laugh. And of course you know, you have to wait for the scene beyond the credit list. What was it he said .... "all depends on the day". Elizabeth
Trickfox
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I have one

Post by Trickfox »

I have an agenda......

But I'm not really sure if it's mine, or someone else's.....

I'm not worried or paranoid about it....

So long as I'm doing something positive, interesting, and generally good for everyone, then I won't feel bad if I also end up making a living at it.

After all I could easilly adopt the same kind of agenda as Gerald Bull, and throw caution to the wind. Then there would definately be a lot of paranoia surrounding me.

I leave it to people in this forum to decide if I am truely following a "GOOD" agenda,--Whoever's it happens to be.

Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Mikado14
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Re: Between the Lines

Post by Mikado14 »

Paul S. wrote:

Oh, and that Sandia "Z Pinch" machine? Another elephant gun on a squirrel hunt. The term "elegant" hardly applies when you've seen what the Farnsworth fusor could do, all in a stainless steel sphere the size of a basketball.
Mikado14 wrote: Elegant, freakin' elegant.

But what about 40 years ago?

Mikado
Uh...that is what I was referring to but when you look at what else is out there, it is the first step and it is "elegant" compared to the old Z.

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
twigsnapper
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not the same

Post by twigsnapper »

Mikado is right Paul. Its not the same old elephant. You have to look at it just a tad more closely. You will see it with your Farnsworth head on.

And the fellow who is mentioned in that meeting between Odlum and Truman is also mentioned in the FBI papers that you have regarding Dr. Brown. You will find him by his stature and by how Dr. Brown himself describes him .... a " Big man in Washington" and he meant that in more ways than strictly political!

Remember at the time that the FBI had an insider stealing things for them from Dr. Browns office in Washington, reporting to them, transcribing everything and then returning things in the morning. And we thought that the Russians were a bother. ( but in all a helpful service to you Paul. If they hadn't been busy doing that, you would have no records of Dr. Browns words and thoughts at all. Of course you have to realize that he knew what was happening.) twigsnapper
Mikado14
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Re: I have one

Post by Mikado14 »

Trickfox wrote:I have an agenda......

But I'm not really sure if it's mine, or someone else's.....

I'm not worried or paranoid about it....

So long as I'm doing something positive, interesting, and generally good for everyone, then I won't feel bad if I also end up making a living at it.

After all I could easilly adopt the same kind of agenda as Gerald Bull, and throw caution to the wind. Then there would definately be a lot of paranoia surrounding me.

I leave it to people in this forum to decide if I am truely following a "GOOD" agenda,--Whoever's it happens to be.

Trickfox
The question comes to mind..

How would one know if they were following another's agenda?

Maybe that's why I trigger those alarms when I go into stores, yeah, it's the implants.

You never fail to crack me up, Trickfox, .....your right, none of it matters as long as you are satisfied and......content.

Thanks old friend,

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
grinder
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accomodating

Post by grinder »

When you become accommodating to another persons wishes, that in itself becomes your agenda too? And yes, all thing weighed, you have to ask yourself ..... who is wagging this dog here? ( Good movie, I noticed it on again this weekend.)

If you have plans and dreams and you happen upon someone whose path would help yours, if you help his ... if both paths are positive and not harmful to either, isn't that important and worthwhile? Thats the best of it.

Of course, the worse of it could be where someone with a negative agenda uses yours to piggyback upon.

Not unlike I think what is happening with our soldiers and marines .... and our current President .... (but thats a political and personal statement on my part and doesn't have a place here. Its just hard to watch sometimes when you realize that you are not getting the straignt of things from your own leaders and men and women who are brave and strong and true put their lives out there because they feel they are doing the right thing. ) grinder
Mark Culpepper
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freedom of information?

Post by Mark Culpepper »

Mr. Twigsnapper,

The FBI reports you mention. You said that Paul already had them. Is this something that he was able to get from the Freedom of Information Act ... or is this something that may have come to him from you across several desktops? Just wondering how available that particular information is to the general public? Would be fascinating if so, but in any case I just can't wait to see the story behind all of that.

Just watching and reading Paul. Like I said, your work is way beyond any grade I could muster now. Now I just enjoy!

Lisa is doing fine with Blinker. He is a totally different horse and I have to thank Linda for that. With her help Lisa was able to polish and retrain him herself, and that was INVALUABLE. She was able to do what other professionals said was impossible. Seems to me that Linda takes all that with a grain of salt.

Everybody stay safe this weekend. Remember our guys and gals. MarkC.
Mikado14
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Re: accomodating

Post by Mikado14 »

grinder wrote:When you become accommodating to another persons wishes, that in itself becomes your agenda too? And yes, all thing weighed, you have to ask yourself ..... who is wagging this dog here? ( Good movie, I noticed it on again this weekend.)
How about this for vague, - Who/whom ever sent the initial Email to Paul.
grinder wrote: If you have plans and dreams and you happen upon someone whose path would help yours, if you help his ... if both paths are positive and not harmful to either, isn't that important and worthwhile? Thats the best of it.
Grinder, I couldn't agree with you any more. (now the however) I have met someone that would fit your description and I would call them a kindred spirit. I further believe that we are both idealists and look at the world through rose colored glasses but with the age that we have, there are chinks in those spectacles that enable us to still visualize the need to earn a living. I would not call what we see as having similar agendas as much as having the same hopes, aspirations as well a lust to see the human condition improve.
grinder wrote: If you have plans and dreams and you happen upon someone whose path would help yours, if you help his ... if both paths are positive and not harmful to either, isn't that important and worthwhile? Thats the best of it.
Now if the above quote is inferring love, then perhaps that is why I am divorced, I never had an agenda, only others did but maybe I should have. Maybe the passion I felt, maybe that feeling of growing old with the person I loved and holding their hand as either one of use took our last breath could have been possible if only I would have had an agenda.


There are those here that would say that those who invent do so without an agenda. An agenda are a set of steps or tasks. To invent or create requires inspiration. When there is inspiration and intuitiveness, I see nothing there that would be as concrete as an agenda. I only see a goal of what it is that is being invented with an intended purpose. Freedom to explore ideas cannot be done by agenda, although Gen. Groves might disagree with that.

At this point, and to save space on the forum, I capitulate this battle. To go much further does not help Paul but my view is still my view. May we live with the differences and wonder at them.

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
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