As always there are many lessons thrown in our direction Mr. Twigsnapper and I thank you for that.
I have been trying to look at that vision of Dr. Brown stepping onto that ancient ship, (thanks to Victoria.) The one thing that comes immediately into my mind is that I have to REMOVE myself from the "nose to the canvas" attitude that is so easy to have. Pull away, as if going thousands and thousands of feet above and then looking down at what is happening. (and has happened). The odd thing is when you do that you can see in all directions. And maybe in all times.
And if I look at the histories and the papers that you have just given us Mr. Twigsnapper (and some other papers that have been under my nose for a long time now) I see some oddities. And this is an interesting statement about the Phoenicians
"All of the Phoenicians’ powerful adversaries had been destroyed—and the Phoenician cities were untouched by this devastation which happened around them. The historical record[xlv] [xlvi] shows these sea-traders quickly began to expand their domain by placing trading posts in Cyprus, the Aegean, Sicily, Sardinia, North Africa, Algeria, Morocco and Spain. Among the cities which they created we see in Morocco: Lixis (modern Larache), Sala (Rabat), Mogador (Essaouira) and Tingis (Tangier); in Spain: Gadir (Cadiz), Malaka (Malaga), Ibisa (Ibiza); in Algeria: Icosia (Algiers); in Tunisia: Utica and Carthage, both now gone; in Sardinia: Karalis (Cagliari); in Sicily: Panormus (Palermo); in Cyprus: Kition (Larnaca). These were in addition to their home cities in Lebanon: Tyre (Sor), Sidon (Saida), Beirut (Beirut), Byblos (Jbail), Tripoli (Trablous), and many others. They became a powerful and wealthy empire which stretched from Morocco to the Levant.
The Sea Peoples had forcefully cleared away the old powers from the Mediterranean and left freshly plowed ground. In time the Greeks and Romans would rise and they—together with the often overlooked Phoenicians—would sow the seeds of Western civilization."
Anybody seeing the same strange oddity that I am seeing?
OFTEN OVERLOOKED PHOENICANS particularly. PHOENICIAN CITIES WERE UNTOUCHED BY THE DEVASTATION ....... as if they had secured some sort of "arrangement"
Can't explain where I am going with this just yet so I am sorry if I am confusing you all. I do that sometimes before the sense of it arrives. Just like throwing all the papers in the air and then reading what hits the floor face up! ( Ever done that? Its interesting for sure!)
I just see that the surge of peoples and civilizations has occurred in the past and will occur again. Most of the time its because of a shortage of food and as I said to someone recently its the suppliers of food that become the sudden "owners" of that land. And its all out there building up again in the future. We don't see it because we can't see that far OVER the horizon. Try the view though from several thousand feet and I keep wondering .... where did my bees go? Elizabeth
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Chapter 57: We Have Much to Decide
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Elizabeth Helen Drake
- Sr. Research Asst.
- Posts: 1742
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:11 am
lessons here
Last edited by Elizabeth Helen Drake on Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ancient boats
You guys are freaking me out.
So we will talk about "ancient boats?" and I find this while listening to a Jimmy Buffett song, I won't even attempt to explain the strangeness.
"Phoenician ships have always been a source of astonishment to the many people who believe history is just one long upward sweep from the primitive past to the cultured present. In fact, it is more a matter of ups and downs, with the present (hopefully) being higher than the past. This was dramatically illustrated by the Dark Ages which followed the fall of the Roman Empire. Before that time, ancient ships were quite spectacular."
http://www.phoenician.org/ancient_ships.htm
Found the above from just randomly following threads. How wierd is this but what an incredible observation. Civilaization does not go constantly upward ..... it ebbs and flows like the tide. So, could the Vedas been really talking about an advanced civilization that " did itself in"? And is the ground prepared again and " freshly plowed" again? Remember what Mikado said .... the horse doesn't have to stop to fertilize the ground its plowing. How wierd. grinder
So we will talk about "ancient boats?" and I find this while listening to a Jimmy Buffett song, I won't even attempt to explain the strangeness.
"Phoenician ships have always been a source of astonishment to the many people who believe history is just one long upward sweep from the primitive past to the cultured present. In fact, it is more a matter of ups and downs, with the present (hopefully) being higher than the past. This was dramatically illustrated by the Dark Ages which followed the fall of the Roman Empire. Before that time, ancient ships were quite spectacular."
http://www.phoenician.org/ancient_ships.htm
Found the above from just randomly following threads. How wierd is this but what an incredible observation. Civilaization does not go constantly upward ..... it ebbs and flows like the tide. So, could the Vedas been really talking about an advanced civilization that " did itself in"? And is the ground prepared again and " freshly plowed" again? Remember what Mikado said .... the horse doesn't have to stop to fertilize the ground its plowing. How wierd. grinder
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Elizabeth Helen Drake
- Sr. Research Asst.
- Posts: 1742
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:11 am
stepping further
Asking for your patience here. For some reason this information seems important. And its just easier to ask you all to come along with me on this jouney than to try to explain how I got to whatever destination is the goal. ( Please, patience, it doesn't translate)
Thinking boats, ancient boats, Phoenicians, the cedars and spices of world trade then ( and now it is? oil and arms, theres a sad commentary but thats not ALL out there)
from this site http://www.ufodigest.com/tribeofdan.html How did I get here? By typing ancient boats plus UFOs. go figure.
Finding these thoughts interesting (????) The phrase fairly leapt out at me.
"The greatest secret at the time of Jesus, as precious as the sacred/secret temple ceremonies themselves, was that a man could travel forty times farther in a boat per day than he could by caravan. It was a secret that was jealously guarded. The fact that the Phoenicians, Egyptians, Romans, Chinese and others guarded the secret to the oceans prevents our understanding to this day of how freely the ancients sailed the world. Secrets are the first things lost over time in history."
Then this writer, (who is a communications espert, by the way) says this:
Boats hugged the shore lines where possible in their merchant ventures, but the ancients with the secrets of sea travel learned the intricacies of trade winds and currents and the maps in the stars. The secret financial legacy of the Magi/Druids was their knowledge of the stars discovered within their stone circles on the plains of Britain. This learning made these ancient priests as valuable as gold and were invited to sit along side all the recorded emperors of China, kings of India, Pharaohs in Egypt and Caesars in Rome.
Truly they were “Wisemenâ€
Thinking boats, ancient boats, Phoenicians, the cedars and spices of world trade then ( and now it is? oil and arms, theres a sad commentary but thats not ALL out there)
from this site http://www.ufodigest.com/tribeofdan.html How did I get here? By typing ancient boats plus UFOs. go figure.
Finding these thoughts interesting (????) The phrase fairly leapt out at me.
"The greatest secret at the time of Jesus, as precious as the sacred/secret temple ceremonies themselves, was that a man could travel forty times farther in a boat per day than he could by caravan. It was a secret that was jealously guarded. The fact that the Phoenicians, Egyptians, Romans, Chinese and others guarded the secret to the oceans prevents our understanding to this day of how freely the ancients sailed the world. Secrets are the first things lost over time in history."
Then this writer, (who is a communications espert, by the way) says this:
Boats hugged the shore lines where possible in their merchant ventures, but the ancients with the secrets of sea travel learned the intricacies of trade winds and currents and the maps in the stars. The secret financial legacy of the Magi/Druids was their knowledge of the stars discovered within their stone circles on the plains of Britain. This learning made these ancient priests as valuable as gold and were invited to sit along side all the recorded emperors of China, kings of India, Pharaohs in Egypt and Caesars in Rome.
Truly they were “Wisemenâ€
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twigsnapper
- Revered Elder
- Posts: 839
- Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:25 pm
- Location: mobile
but you will
Elizabeth my dear. Remember this? But flower must not ever go ... from bee ... to bee .... to bee....... twigsnapper
different levels
Elizabeth,
I am sure that you and Mr. Twigsnapper are communicating on a far different level than this message will be ... bee .... to you but I found this on the same line of communication. And I wondered while I read it . Why do scientists HAVE to call things a "disease" or a " disorder" It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. Sort of identifying the "You are totally screwed disorder"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.p ... eybees.xml
"Entomologist Jerry Bromenshenk and his team at Bee Alert Technologies Inc. -- a University of Montana technology spin-off company -- along with the Pennsylvania researchers, are investigating a mysterious ailment called Colony Collapse Disorder.
"We don't want to panic the beekeeper industry because we are not sure it's time to push the panic button yet," Bromenshenk said. "But we do know this is real, it's severe and it's widespread.
The malady, also called disappearing disease, results in most adult honeybees abandoning a hive and disappearing, leaving the queen and some younger bees. Dead adult bees aren't found near the hive, they are just gone."
I don't know where your bees went Elizabeth, but I am sure glad that you have noticed that they are gone. grady
I am sure that you and Mr. Twigsnapper are communicating on a far different level than this message will be ... bee .... to you but I found this on the same line of communication. And I wondered while I read it . Why do scientists HAVE to call things a "disease" or a " disorder" It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. Sort of identifying the "You are totally screwed disorder"
http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/index.p ... eybees.xml
"Entomologist Jerry Bromenshenk and his team at Bee Alert Technologies Inc. -- a University of Montana technology spin-off company -- along with the Pennsylvania researchers, are investigating a mysterious ailment called Colony Collapse Disorder.
"We don't want to panic the beekeeper industry because we are not sure it's time to push the panic button yet," Bromenshenk said. "But we do know this is real, it's severe and it's widespread.
The malady, also called disappearing disease, results in most adult honeybees abandoning a hive and disappearing, leaving the queen and some younger bees. Dead adult bees aren't found near the hive, they are just gone."
I don't know where your bees went Elizabeth, but I am sure glad that you have noticed that they are gone. grady
heres another
And this too which goes back to that statement that Einstein was supposed to have made. Valid comments on using someone "important" to get our point accross. The old ... well, if Einstein said it ..... well if thats the case was about what Stephen Hawkins just said about mankind being "doomed" for a future on this planet. If that doesn't just warm your heart.
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/einstein/bees.asp
At the end of this is makes the comment, no wild bees, no wild flowers (80% loss they calculate) and then as far as that goes when the flowers go then its a chain reaction after that . Then we could drag out the old " Where have all the flowers gone?" and be modern! grady
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/einstein/bees.asp
At the end of this is makes the comment, no wild bees, no wild flowers (80% loss they calculate) and then as far as that goes when the flowers go then its a chain reaction after that . Then we could drag out the old " Where have all the flowers gone?" and be modern! grady
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Elizabeth Helen Drake
- Sr. Research Asst.
- Posts: 1742
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:11 am
Vedas and Phoenicians?
Trying to get back somehow to the Vedas and India ... I "happened" to find this.
http://phoenicia.org/rigveda.html
I was actually surprised that there was a connection. Now I have to admit that I don't know what the heck this fellow is talking about and I don't even know if what he is saying is valid but at least its one step in this direction. Morgan encouraged Paul to investigate the Vedic writings. For some reason also Victoria was turned to look at the ships and people her friend called " Sea People" and she has recently said that his heritage was"Phoenician". I don't know why but in my minds eye I could see all that as connected, and the sight of Dr. Brown stepping from a pier to one of those ancient ships really important. Soooooo I just searched Vedas and Phoenicia and the above is what I came up with.
And this is the only part of it that I even halfway understand.
"Many truths lie buried in the dark depth of the past covered over by numerous strata of forgotten events. I propose to dig up one of them, one that would have to combat the history of the primitive ages as it is commonly accepted and also the cherished theories of the scholars of the east and the west, both old and new. What I fear is that the importance of the discovery may fail to attract the attention of the learned world through my own insignificance, utterly unknown to fame as I am. But I consider the task I have set upon myself to be of great moment, and nothing undaunted I intend to strike out the path, for diligence in the cause of truth is destined to bring its reward and recognition of the truth
I begin by recapitulating first the results of my investigation to create, if possible, an interest in the subject at the outset. They are the following:
A great war broke out in the remote old days between the Indian Aryans and the Phoenicians in which the latter were defeated and compelled to leave wholly or partially the land of the Aryans.
Most of the Suktas of the Rig Veda either describe or refer to this and many other wars.
The Rig Veda, therefore, is not a poem only but a history. The current meanings of most of the Suktas will accordingly have to be altered and the Rig Veda SANHITA itself explained in a way different from the accepted one.
The Phoenicians were the first of the civilized nations of the world. The civilization of Assyria, Babylonia, Egypt, Greece and other ancient countries owed its origin to the union of the civilization of the Aryans with that of the Phoenicians.
The Phoenicians originally lived in Afghanistan or in some part of India, whence driven out they migrated gradually westwards. While still residing in the neighbourhood of India they colonized and traded with Arabia and the countries bordering on the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea.
The Phoenicians had colonies in many countries from each of which they were driven away by the natives after severe struggles. In this way they were expelled from India, Egypt, Greece, and Rome, or they mixed with the natives when they lost their supremacy in those countries.
The primitive civilization of the world was born long before the time known to us.
In ancient time the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea were connected together by a strait through which the Phoenician and Aryan trading ships entered the Mediterranean Sea and Indian goods were taken to Europe. As that passage gradually silted up the connection between India and Europe broke off."
Is this all a possibility? Are there some ancient history scholars out there that can lend some more ideas, pro or con to this?
What I find interesting is that he seems to say that the Phoenicians were in India very early in that areas history. What does that mean? Elizabeth
http://phoenicia.org/rigveda.html
I was actually surprised that there was a connection. Now I have to admit that I don't know what the heck this fellow is talking about and I don't even know if what he is saying is valid but at least its one step in this direction. Morgan encouraged Paul to investigate the Vedic writings. For some reason also Victoria was turned to look at the ships and people her friend called " Sea People" and she has recently said that his heritage was"Phoenician". I don't know why but in my minds eye I could see all that as connected, and the sight of Dr. Brown stepping from a pier to one of those ancient ships really important. Soooooo I just searched Vedas and Phoenicia and the above is what I came up with.
And this is the only part of it that I even halfway understand.
"Many truths lie buried in the dark depth of the past covered over by numerous strata of forgotten events. I propose to dig up one of them, one that would have to combat the history of the primitive ages as it is commonly accepted and also the cherished theories of the scholars of the east and the west, both old and new. What I fear is that the importance of the discovery may fail to attract the attention of the learned world through my own insignificance, utterly unknown to fame as I am. But I consider the task I have set upon myself to be of great moment, and nothing undaunted I intend to strike out the path, for diligence in the cause of truth is destined to bring its reward and recognition of the truth
I begin by recapitulating first the results of my investigation to create, if possible, an interest in the subject at the outset. They are the following:
A great war broke out in the remote old days between the Indian Aryans and the Phoenicians in which the latter were defeated and compelled to leave wholly or partially the land of the Aryans.
Most of the Suktas of the Rig Veda either describe or refer to this and many other wars.
The Rig Veda, therefore, is not a poem only but a history. The current meanings of most of the Suktas will accordingly have to be altered and the Rig Veda SANHITA itself explained in a way different from the accepted one.
The Phoenicians were the first of the civilized nations of the world. The civilization of Assyria, Babylonia, Egypt, Greece and other ancient countries owed its origin to the union of the civilization of the Aryans with that of the Phoenicians.
The Phoenicians originally lived in Afghanistan or in some part of India, whence driven out they migrated gradually westwards. While still residing in the neighbourhood of India they colonized and traded with Arabia and the countries bordering on the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea.
The Phoenicians had colonies in many countries from each of which they were driven away by the natives after severe struggles. In this way they were expelled from India, Egypt, Greece, and Rome, or they mixed with the natives when they lost their supremacy in those countries.
The primitive civilization of the world was born long before the time known to us.
In ancient time the Red Sea and the Mediterranean Sea were connected together by a strait through which the Phoenician and Aryan trading ships entered the Mediterranean Sea and Indian goods were taken to Europe. As that passage gradually silted up the connection between India and Europe broke off."
Is this all a possibility? Are there some ancient history scholars out there that can lend some more ideas, pro or con to this?
What I find interesting is that he seems to say that the Phoenicians were in India very early in that areas history. What does that mean? Elizabeth
following your lead
It seems to me that the author that you are quoting here Elizabeth is worried about the sort of reaction that he is going to get, but thats not going to stop him. He reminds me of a scientist named Townsend Brown. What were the words ? Gracious and resolute. Thats what this fellow sounds like too. Hes not stopping.
"These conclusions will lead on to many others which it is neither the place nor the time to dilate upon. They are sure to revolutionize the history of the world, chalk out a new path for linguistic researches, and recast the classification of the human races when the agitation caused by their novelty has calmed down and they have found acceptance with the learned world. A careful investigation, I am confident, will reveal the truth of these statements to honest enquirers, and the feeble track I lay out will before long turn to a high road in skilled hands of willing labourers in the cause"........
I kind of know what those "willing labourers and skilled hands" are like. I have seen that manifested in your words Elizabeth and in Pauls book and in all of the comments and of all of the work that has gone before. "GOOD WORDS "A CAREFUL INVESTIGATION WILL REVEAL THE TRUTH.
This is pretty darned exciting. Am I the only one hearing the music to this party? I don't think so! grinder
"These conclusions will lead on to many others which it is neither the place nor the time to dilate upon. They are sure to revolutionize the history of the world, chalk out a new path for linguistic researches, and recast the classification of the human races when the agitation caused by their novelty has calmed down and they have found acceptance with the learned world. A careful investigation, I am confident, will reveal the truth of these statements to honest enquirers, and the feeble track I lay out will before long turn to a high road in skilled hands of willing labourers in the cause"........
I kind of know what those "willing labourers and skilled hands" are like. I have seen that manifested in your words Elizabeth and in Pauls book and in all of the comments and of all of the work that has gone before. "GOOD WORDS "A CAREFUL INVESTIGATION WILL REVEAL THE TRUTH.
This is pretty darned exciting. Am I the only one hearing the music to this party? I don't think so! grinder
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Victoria Steele
- Mysterious Redhead
- Posts: 930
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:06 am
alot of info
kevin,
Not ignoring your post but thats ALOT of material. I am still chewing on it!
So........ Paul ......... this Thursday. Maybe? I am really interested to see which way you will go next! California in 1945-46 ?..... or just twenty years later Florida and then Philadelphia in 1965-66. Oh what a difference twenty years makes!
Oh, but thats not right actually. The only real difference might be that the little girl is now a grown woman. Seems that her parents might be going along in the same life that they established together before. She is just being protected from all of that. Well, she should be! ..... she was just a kid! ... but now in Philadelphia in 1966 how much of a look into this life is she actually going to get? And does she make decisions for her life? or are they just made for her?
Can't wait to see which way you go! And which way the story takes you! Victoria
Not ignoring your post but thats ALOT of material. I am still chewing on it!
So........ Paul ......... this Thursday. Maybe? I am really interested to see which way you will go next! California in 1945-46 ?..... or just twenty years later Florida and then Philadelphia in 1965-66. Oh what a difference twenty years makes!
Oh, but thats not right actually. The only real difference might be that the little girl is now a grown woman. Seems that her parents might be going along in the same life that they established together before. She is just being protected from all of that. Well, she should be! ..... she was just a kid! ... but now in Philadelphia in 1966 how much of a look into this life is she actually going to get? And does she make decisions for her life? or are they just made for her?
Can't wait to see which way you go! And which way the story takes you! Victoria
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Victoria Steele
- Mysterious Redhead
- Posts: 930
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:06 am
6001 responses!!!
And maybe this makes 6002!!! I was hoping to be able to be the 6000ths message, just for old times sake ... but someone beat me to it! Still, I think it is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING Paul, that this forum has this sort of vitality. And really, when you think about it, its still so early that most people haven't even heard about your project yet. Thank goodness you are not feeling the need to hit the "lecture circuit" and are paying attention to the chore at hand.
Looking back on the Conference in Las Vegas in November of last year .... How do you see things as being different now? Are you where you thought that you would be at this time? I know that this whole book can be a surprise but is it going along the way that you thought it might?
Now the "membership roster" is another thing entirely. Its listed at 618 registered members but I know thats just cause you have been gone and you haven't run a "purge" on the ... whatever you call those members who aren't members .... Are we at least a hundred real members? I try to note when you get rid of the excess what the start up number is but it rises so quickly its hard for me to tell.
So ... maybe not this week? OK, if need be. I'll give you permission! Like, thats a laugh. But thanks for keeping me in the loop! Victoria
Looking back on the Conference in Las Vegas in November of last year .... How do you see things as being different now? Are you where you thought that you would be at this time? I know that this whole book can be a surprise but is it going along the way that you thought it might?
Now the "membership roster" is another thing entirely. Its listed at 618 registered members but I know thats just cause you have been gone and you haven't run a "purge" on the ... whatever you call those members who aren't members .... Are we at least a hundred real members? I try to note when you get rid of the excess what the start up number is but it rises so quickly its hard for me to tell.
So ... maybe not this week? OK, if need be. I'll give you permission! Like, thats a laugh. But thanks for keeping me in the loop! Victoria
Who Stole My Pruning Shears??
Somewhat "off topic" here but WTH....
Same deal for the new "Golden Threads" forum we were talking about creating a couple of weeks ago. I have to go in figure out how to make those kinds of modifications to the underlying database and script files -- basically speaking a language I don't really understand. But before I did that, I discovered I needed to upgrade the underlying software for this whole forum.
My host (Livingdot.com) did that for me, but I've just discovered that when they ran the upgrade, I lost the MOD -- now I can't "prune" the deadwood out of the membership roles until I re-install that MOD. Grrrr.
But, yeah, actual membership is something around the 100 hundred mark. And I get like two or three dozen bogus "new members" daily that I just absolutely ignore.
Let me get a new chapter written, and then I'll go in and figure out again how to make these MODs -- prune the rolls, and create that new "Golden Threads" forum that we were talking about.
--PS
It's called "pruning" and I had to add a "MOD"ification to the database platform so that I could do that periodically. I'm not really up to speed on that kind of thing, so it took me a while to figure out how to add that feature to the admin panel.Victoria Steele wrote:Now the "membership roster" is another thing entirely. Its listed at 618 registered members but I know thats just cause you have been gone and you haven't run a "purge" on the ... whatever you call those members who aren't members ....
Same deal for the new "Golden Threads" forum we were talking about creating a couple of weeks ago. I have to go in figure out how to make those kinds of modifications to the underlying database and script files -- basically speaking a language I don't really understand. But before I did that, I discovered I needed to upgrade the underlying software for this whole forum.
My host (Livingdot.com) did that for me, but I've just discovered that when they ran the upgrade, I lost the MOD -- now I can't "prune" the deadwood out of the membership roles until I re-install that MOD. Grrrr.
But, yeah, actual membership is something around the 100 hundred mark. And I get like two or three dozen bogus "new members" daily that I just absolutely ignore.
Let me get a new chapter written, and then I'll go in and figure out again how to make these MODs -- prune the rolls, and create that new "Golden Threads" forum that we were talking about.
--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Buh-Bye
I got my host to restore the missing "prune" mod, and I just deleted 518 non-activated "users" who "registered" more than 24 hours ago. I believe that leaves us with 95 "actual" members.
--PS
--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer