Chapter 56: All Flags Flying

Use this section for any discussion specifically related to the chapters posted online of the unfolding biography, "Defying Gravity: The Parallel Universe of T. Townsend Brown
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LongboardLOVELY
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Re: The golden thread

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

Trickfox wrote:I have heard Elizabeth call it "The golden thread" that is woven into a solid fabrick.

Maybe ?


Trickfox
Great memory, Trickfox. Yes she's called IT that. That would be an awesome title, Paul.

sorry, my surfer chick mode coming out.
Dude....

:)

LBL
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
grinder
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getting the idea

Post by grinder »

I think I can see what Mr. Twigsnapper is suggesting here.

He has said all along that this forum acts as a "living breathing conciousness" through its various members and now he has suggested that we give that "conciousness" a spot by creating a post area and each of us logging in comments that we have found in previously written posts. Have I got it so far? You have to admit, thats one hell of an exciting and novel idea.

Kevinb. It sort of sounds like dowsing for thoughts! Does that seem a ridiculous ideat? No, not! I think not!

What Mr. Twigsnapper is saying is .... "if we all just slowly read over what has already been said on this forum we might just find some material which will strike a chord with us somehow." (each of us as individuals. Then what we should do is post the date and the writer (credit where credits due) so people reading the thought can go further in depth by going back if they want to. See how that might work. Let the "force" guide us in finding what has already been inspired. And then add that to something someone else has found important in their own way.

like Trickfox said. We have all of these "golden threads of inspired thoughts" but they are all over the place and some of them are buried and they need to be found and put where they can interact with the other threads. Each "gem thread " with enough room so it can be studied and looked at and appreciated separately. Theres been some great stuff on this forum.

Someone else said this whole situation is sort of a " self organizing system" and this would show the fruits of that. I actually agree with Mr. Twigsnapper and I think that he sees that at work too. Its just looking for a place of its own! ( tell the guys in the white coats I ain't done just yet!)

We should probably have some rules regarding how we do this ( like maybe only one comment per post, with credit given to the original writer ... and the date too is important ...... thats just my suggestion. Paul might have other ideas and I will leave that to him, but also we have to remember to stay as flexible within that framework as possible. The "frame" would be there just to make things easier and less complicated. What we want I guess is controlled magic! If we don't have some way of keeping it understandable the whole reason for doing this gets lost. Not sure if I got my point across. Going to be interesting to see if this even can work. It strangely Paul makes me think of Farnsworth looking at that fusor. Now if we can just put that magic somehow in a bottle! grinder
ladygrady
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I agree, but

Post by ladygrady »

I agree with the idea but I have reservations that once the forum members know what is at work here, that it will actually work. Do you know what I mean? Sort of like putting a person in front of a camera. If he doesn't know he is being filmed his actions are normal but before a camera people always try to interject their own impressions of how they should look. How they want to appear to the outside world. Wouldn't this sort of thing affect your " thread collection process?" I guess the only way to find out is to just do it, but that would be a concern of mine.

Other comments,

I really do believe that Josephine had that connection with "Evelyn" and you can tell that she did by the carefully worded information that has been given to Paul. Word had GOTTEN to her ( he doesn't say how, does he?) That her husband was in London, that he was injured (didn't explain the nature of the injury, I am sure) She was told that he was not doing well . And thats why I think she was given the opportunity to ask Evelyn to put flowers in his room.

I am sure it was a specific arrangement and I am sure that Dr. Brown knew without having to ask that SOMEHOW the flowers were carrying thoughts and love from Josephine. And all of this might have gone right under the noses of the most accurate spymasters and codemasters maybe in the world at that time! Thats sort of an assumption that goes along with accepting the fact that Evelyn McBarnet was the "nurse". She was no actual nurse! surely. She worked for Peter Wright and he, I believe, was associated with the Admiralty at the time. So what was Evelyn doing there, besides bringing flowers to Townsend Browns bedside? Paul ? Chapter this week? Not to steal Victorias thunder but isn't this Thursday? grady
twigsnapper
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confessions

Post by twigsnapper »

I must say that in the years following that experience at that farmhouse, I considered myself devoted to keeping secrets. But I have to admit, Josephine was far better at it than I was!

I have no doubt that through the years Townsend Brown poured her heart and soul out to that lady and ALL of those confidences were kept to the end of her life. I myself did not know anything about the "roses at the bedside" until Morgan met with her just before she died. No one else has ever known the confidences that she and he shared during that visit.

twigsnapper
Martin Calloway
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she knew

Post by Martin Calloway »

Now, Mr. Twigsnapper.

Thats a very interesting bit of NEW information. Playing on words here but "she KNEW", you said.

KNEW about all this cloak and dagger intrigue? Doesn't that go against the rules of the road as far as these guys are concerned? I saw " The Good Shepherd" twice and the whole time I was struck by how much his wife SUSPECTED but how much she was never told. It was supposed to "protect" her but in reality it ripped them apart. Of course I am not sure that particular lady should have known too much. I'm not sure I would have trusted her with much. And I truly understand why men ( and women) in the field of intelligence gathering prefer to be single or sadly divorced. Its just too much of a strain) Most women need to know what their husbands are doing and most need a stable influence and surroundings.

But Josephine is a different woman altogether. She doesn't maintain or seem to need the "front" . (House in the suburbs, dinner parties, social circle, lunch at the club.) Josephine just up and moves. Wherever her Townsend is. She seems to be. Thats just simply extraordinary! The "front" she presents is particularly designed around him.

Has anybody counted the number of times that little green teapot got moved? I'll bet the number would astound all of us. And in all of this do you notice that the roles somehow were reversed with this couple? Where in the Good Shepherd he kept things from his wife and actually locked her out of a whole section of his life, Dr. Brown apparently took the chance and let Josephine fully in. And she backed him up 100 %. And the Caroline Group must have known that was going to be the situation. Maybe they realized that he just could not be valuable to them without her? Remember that they divorced, she went to work for Stephenson then all of the sudden they remarried and moved to California together. That just tells me that they were meant to be a team and they had the blessings of the " Group"

I am thinking that the Caroline Group had as much an operative in her as they had in him. Without her I believe that he might have been a lost man.

I would be curious to see if Linda Brown agrees with that assesment because if she thinks I am wrong or have given her parents traits she doesn't agree with I certainly will bow to her thoughts. Am I right?

Haven't been on in months. This site is ENORMOUS! Did you ever expect it to do this Paul?

I notice that you still don't have sites for Chapters 15, 46,47 and 48. Want them or .... not?

Martin
Paul S.
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Re: getting the idea

Post by Paul S. »

grinder wrote:He has said all along that this forum acts as a "living breathing conciousness" through its various members and now he has suggested that we give that "conciousness" a spot by creating a post area and each of us logging in comments that we have found in previously written posts. Have I got it so far? You have to admit, thats one hell of an exciting and novel idea.
I also think it's a nifty idea, but I have to learn a couple of new tricks before I can get this to work the way I'd like it to. So, bear with me while I go back to engineering school...

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Trickfox
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I Agree with Lady Grady

Post by Trickfox »

IMHO Lady Grady is correct about what is likely to happen with this idea.

and , Paul aren't you looking for".... some kind of code for Parallel Hopping Device?"

Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Victoria Steele
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the thirteenth

Post by Victoria Steele »

Yeah, today is Friday the Thirteenth. Right? Isn't this the day that most of the Templar Knights were rounded up and destroyed. That will teach them! Right? Thats what happens when you run afoul of an organized religion in power.

Anyway, old stuff.

Let us know how this "collective conciousness" post is going Paul. I am taking notes already as soon as you figure out what the rules are going to be. I think that its an interesting experiment. And probably as you have figured when Mr. Twigsnapper asks you to do something there is somewhere a very good reason.

I am very impressed with the idea of the question of " What did Josephine know and when did she know it?" Damn. Sounds like Washington DC!

And Trickfox .... I want one of those PHDs myself!
Victoria
grinder
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I'm like a little kid

Post by grinder »

I'm like a little kid after my cosmic haha experience today ( too long a story) but now I can't sleep and I want to know more about this story.

Paul,
Now I realize that you have decided to switch story lines for a little bit. Thats OK, I can understand, but I really don't want to go away from 1945 and the next few years. I looked around a little on the forum and realized that much has been written about his next few stepsalready.

Now the dilema. Do we talk about this stuff BEFORE you get back to it? Will it preempt what you have planned to say?Or will it be an encouraging "preview". Maybe if I just pose some questions. ( The answers which will probably be forthcoming in the next chapter when you get back to Dr. Brown. Maybe that would be alright. this way we can get a running headstart on you?

So heres a start. We can always count on Victoria!

viewtopic.php?p=2904#2904
New post for this subject!

Soooooo According to Beau Kitselmans little book "Hello Stupid" written in 1962, he was the person who set up the "Pearl Harbor Demonstration" as it has come to be called ?

"B. and I were separated for some years right after the war, but we kept in touch. When I was teaching calculus to a group of Navy men at Barbers Point (which is a part of Pearl Harbor), my students built and operated a 'gravitator' and we all became very enthusiastic. The FAWTUPAC Commander took an interest, B. was sent for, and finally no less a personage than CINCPAC Admiral Radford witnessed a demonstration. B. was well treated by his Navy acquaintances, who were of course immensely proud of him, but the demonstrations were still rather primitive, and no scientists appeared. We all thought the millennium was at hand, but it wasn't. Actually, this sort of thing had been going on for years, for even though B. was more of a shrinking violet than a bold promoter, every now and then his friends would try to get somebody interested."

OK. A couple of comments here. This was written by someone both Paul and Elizabeth seem to think was Dr. Browns partner in "Caroline operations. Mr. Kitselman has been regarded as a mathematician and genius and someone extraordinarily interested in sanskrit and human conciousness. He apparently is admitting that he has known Dr. Brown for years BEFORE the Pear Harbor Demonstration because he said " B and I were separated for some years right after the war." Which translates to me , "you can't be separated unless you are originally together!" so they must have been working together during the war AND YET Paul, You never mention Beau Kitselman? Why not? I don't want to be a pest here so now I am just going to go away and take notes so I won't be flooding you with comments and questions. Whatever happened today got my full and undivided attention. grinder
Paul S.
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People Places & Things

Post by Paul S. »

grinder wrote:"you can't be separated unless you are originally together!" so they must have been working together during the war AND YET Paul, You never mention Beau Kitselman? Why not? I don't want to be a pest here so now I am just going to go away and take notes so I won't be flooding you with comments and questions. Whatever happened today got my full and undivided attention.
grinder is entirely right, you can't be separated from somebody unless you've been together at some point in the past.

The problem with Kitselman is that he does not really show up anywhere in the narrative until Pearl Harbor/1950, which, as grinder points out, is described in 1962 as a reunion of sorts.

There are a couple of instances like this, where characters appear later who refer to encounters in the past that are not mentioned.

Peter Wright comes to mind. He had a hand in developing those midget subs that O'Riley almost drowned in, the ones that tried to sink the Tirpitz; He was also involved with Dr. Brown in ship-degaussing research during the war (but I've got very little info on that). And it has been suggested to me that Dr. Brown spent more than a little time conferring with Wright while he was convalescing from his injuries in England. But I don't think I've mentioned Wright yet at all.

In fact, I've been surprised that nobody has caught a mention in (I think) Chapter 55, where O'Riley says he is familiar with Dr. Brown, having encountered him in England a year earlier. That (1944) visit to England is not mentioned prior to that reference, and nobody's said yet "hey, what was Brown doing in England when he was supposedly in California...???"

Y'all missed that? C'mon kids, yer slipping!

Peter Wright, btw, was a British Intelligence officer shows up later in the famous "Spy Catcher" case -- the one that prosecuted Kim Philby etal. If you've seen the Las Vegas presentation you know how that name figures in the story.

Beau Kitselman is another such case. As grinder reminds us Victoria pointed out in quoting "Hello Stupid," Brown's relationship to Kitselman predates the 1950 Pearl Harbor encounter, but the exact moment of their meeting I have not found in any of the material I've gathered so far. I've had some contact with one of Kitselman's daughters, but she was unable to shed any light, either.

There is one anecdote I'm still sitting on regarding Kitselman from earlier in WWII. Something having to do with German subs surfacing near Virginia Beach and transmitting messages that end with Kitselman's initials, "ALK." That's a whole episode I guess I'm saving that one for the rewrite.

It has occurred to me in the past few weeks that some of these characters have been left out of this "first draft, work-in-progress," and at some point I guess I'm going to have to figure out how to introduce them. I've actually contemplated writing a chapter called "People, Places, and Things" that just basically says, "oh, by the way, here are a few characters that are important to this story whose introductions have been skipped over...." I may still do that, if only to rectify the kinds of oversight that grinder identifies in this post.

Kitselman. Somewhere in the years already covered. Probably while Brown was in California at Vega Aircraft. Except that he was also in England during the same period. With Peter Wright -- who also hasn't been mentioned yet.

Hence the occasional reference to heads exploding.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
grinder
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thanks so much

Post by grinder »

Thanks so much for that Paul. I think I really needed some sort of steadying hand. One that said, like you just did, there are alot of things not explained yet, hang in there.

While yer at it. Wantah try a swing at my Jimmy Buffett /Cheshire Cat/ Herman Wouk/ Norman Paperman/Lucky Tree/ Bandersnatch /Alice in Wonderland connection?

And now that you speak of it, I was a little confused when you mentioned the time that Twigsnapper-ORiley first met Dr. Brown. You said "in the winter of 44" but then when you mentioned that Twigsnapper went "behind the lines" it sounded like it was in the "winter" too. Maybe the reason I didn't mention it was that I thought I would ask you about that and I never got back to it.

Peter Wright. I think I have read one of his books. SpyCatcher, I think. He worked for MI5 wasn't it? So that would have been like the FBI here in this country. MI6 was their CIA? Am I right? So what kind of connection could Dr. Brown and Peter Wright have possibly had. I would have thought it would have been, maybe, the Royal Navy (what with these "flag officers all around" like Mr. Twigsnapper said. " A room full of "flag officers" which if I translate that properly that means, a room full of Rear Admirals and up. Nobody with less than that rank is considered a "flag officer"

So now thats damned interesting. What WOULD Dr. Brown have been doing in England at that time " Blowing in with other Americans" Whew. Something else to look at.

I will say one thing Paul. Your book will be a great teaching tool for students, it really will. Because just to keep up with what is going on you really are forced to learn stuff you never were taught before. I have to admit, I don't think I even knew what a " flag officer" meant until your " All Flags Flying Chapter hit the deck! Maybe I had learned it a long time ago but I sure must not have paid attention.

Degausing? Earlier work? another point for the above!

Thanks Paul. STill agitated as you can tell. But you have been going through this for four years? Horrendous! grinder
Victoria Steele
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a year later

Post by Victoria Steele »

viewtopic.php?p=894#894

Worth a reprise. Notice the date. One year ago plus some.
____________________________________________________________
Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:50 am Post subject: not me

Yes, Martin, dangerous territory there .... this old age and senility thing. Just ranks right up with "Shes only a woman, what can she know?"

Well this woman has been looking for a common denominator. You know. Between Stephenson, Johnson and the way it might have reflected in Townsend Browns life. Well, Communications .... for sure .... but thats not all .

In the time that Townsend Brown was supposed to be involved with TPX (1943?????) Wasn't he supposed to be a radar expert? Granted , it was early radar .... but I thought I read somewhere that he was considered quite an expert. I might be a little off on the dates ... but I did discover that Stephenson reportedly had quite a role in development of the early radar stations in England ..... anybody know more about that?

Seems to me that someone who already knows that Hitler was gearing up for war ..... by closing off steel sales .... would be very interested in getting the best and the brightest under his wing as quickly as possible. And I really believe that Townsend Brown would have been a prime recruit.

So, on Thursday, are we going to go back to that?

I am torn now. I love the Linda/Morgan love story .... but seeing Dr. Brown "recruited" into an "intelligence organization" run maybe by Stephenson ...... thats pretty heady stuff.

But wait .... Years later (thirty one to be exact)..... thats what happens with Morgan too? Morgan meets "Mr. X" and goes sailing with him .... and I'll just bet he gets recruited by Stephenson, just as Brown was ....

I am right aren't I? I just stumbled into that. Morgan was "recruited " too ...... so thats what Andrew meant in that last locked out post when he said "Brown was working on a multigenerational project" .THATS WHAT HE MEANT. hA! A REAL AHA! MOMENT HERE FOLKS. Victoria
_____________________________________________________________
Isn't it amazing how relevant that message is today. One BIG circle, but it took us a year to do it. I have to say though .... its been SO worth it! Victoria
Mikado14
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Re: thanks so much

Post by Mikado14 »

grinder wrote: And now that you speak of it, I was a little confused when you mentioned the time that Twigsnapper-ORiley first met Dr. Brown. You said "in the winter of 44" but then when you mentioned that Twigsnapper went "behind the lines" it sounded like it was in the "winter" too. Maybe the reason I didn't mention it was that I thought I would ask you about that and I never got back to it.


So now thats damned interesting. What WOULD Dr. Brown have been doing in England at that time " Blowing in with other Americans" Whew. Something else to look at.
Grinder..how you been?

How about this.... do you think that Dr Brown just decided to go one day on his mission or do you think that he just might have been there to peruse .....espionage information?...among other things and in doing that plan the mission that he went on? Remember what you have posted and what Paul has written....the answer is already there.


Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
grinder
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feet on the ground

Post by grinder »

Doing better (?) Mikado. Feet placed a little firmer on the ground. The experience with the CD was beyond anything coincidental, almost felt like someone grabbed me mentally and said " Pay attention boy!" So totally wierd! And I don't know about you much but I have been island related dreams! Palm trees and a harbor with sailboats. All this Jimmy Buffett music seeping through my subconcious I guess.

Oh and I agree with you. Dr. Brown most certainly was there in some important capacity and in some pretty rarified company. BUT REMEMBER IN 1944 HE WAS NOT IN THE Navy. (Or not supposed to be in the Navy, remember? He had "resigned under a cloud" ..... His good friend ( who isn't mentioned yet, Beau Kitselman) put out the story that he had " worked too long and too hard, suffered a nervous breakdown and had been sent home to rest. Separation from the Navy quickly followed".)

Those might not be the exact words that he used but thats close to what William Moore wrote in The Philadelphia Experiment. Now, thanks to Paul we KNOW FOR SURE THAT AT LEAST THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. He apparently reported directly to Vega. (which is where Beau Kitselman says he met him) RIGHT. I think, " Not for the first time" (My opinion here)

Beau Kitselman was a math expert. He obviously was part of Townsend Browns "team" which was waiting for him to get to California. I don't know what went on or what sort of work was being done but I can almost guess that its not going to be anything available to the public. even now.

Dr. Brown left on his mission on the 12th of April. Looks like he was in England recovering most of the summer, getting home to the new house in California in August. So what might have been in the planning stages during the previous winter? And Paul seems to say that this Peter Wright is going to have something to do with all of this so what was HE doing the winter of 44 /early spring of 45? And what was Peter Wrights responsibilities during that summer after the war was over. He eventually I understand was very concerned about the Soviet intelligence threat. So where is the common thread here. Ya know theres gotta be something in common here. grinder
Mikado14
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Re: feet on the ground

Post by Mikado14 »

grinder wrote: He eventually I understand was very concerned about the Soviet intelligence threat. So where is the common thread here. Ya know theres gotta be something in common here. grinder
Remember the tunnel

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
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