BRAIN PRINTS

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Gewis,

You may be right that there is no technological link between these visions and prophetic situations.

You say "given all that happened long before such a technology MIGHT have been developed." You are missing a point that Dr. Brown would probably immediately express. IF it could become technically possible to go from one "postcard" to another" stacked postcard." Then our entire understanding of ancient history comes into question. You say that prophesies and dreams of future events happened so much earlier.

Precisely.

I couldn't tell you yet how that could happen Gewis, but perhaps we are just not there yet? Just imagine if such a thing were to become possible? What would that mean then? And how would such a technology be used.

I understand what you meant about the scent of something. Jimmy Buffett sings a song with a lyric that goes " I'm searching for the sound of time."

And I submit here too that we are " searching for the scent of time"

Elizabeth

[Paul S.]

Thats an interesting thought. That we might ALL be able to interact with our past selves?

For all we know, we're doing that already.

But then, that past interaction has become part of the time line that brings us to the present circumstance. Nothing changes in the time line, we just get to see it unfold from a different perspective.

But IF you could somehow inform yourself of things that you had discovered in the future, WHO WOULD EVER BELIEVE YOU? Is this the sort of thing all of these gifted people have had to deal with through the centuries. KNOWING but of course never being able to prove anything.

Which, I think, also underscore the central process at work here. If Morgan and Twigsnapper told me everything all at once, would I believe them?

And even if I did... who would believe ME?

--PS

[grinder]

Paul,

Good natured ribbing here!

I have seen you complain about not getting all of the material that you wanted. You even admitted that there were moments when you whined !<g> and we have seen little reflections of that here and there!

Now you are saying, "yes but ( sort of) IF I had been told EVERYTHING about Townsend Brown all at once, would I have believed those sources? And then, you added, would others have believed me? Perhaps that was a problem that was wisely avoided? Perhaps thats the way with everything and everybody. Maybe we are just given as much as we can chew at any one time?

Seems like this is the problem that seers and wisemen have had through the centuries. How and why should people believe them? Well, maybe the only way is for time to prove them out. So why be in a rush to tell everything when its a waiting game anyway!

Dr. Brown may have been "ahead of his time" in the twenties and forties and sixties but that is not stopping people NOW from finally seeing what he was trying to show them.

If someone had put a drawing of an Ionic Breeze in front of Edward Teller in 1962 would he have believed the source that handed him the drawing?

What else is out there that is known about but not yet developed in the light of day? Probably a whole lot! I just know that I am really enjoying getting to know this person and watching how he deals with this situation. What a person DOES is sometimes so much more revealing than anything he might say.

So Paul, what happens next? grinder

[Mikado14]

What else is out there that is known about but not yet developed in the light of day? Probably a whole lot!

I was once told that if you can dream it, it is either being worked on or is done. Perhaps..

I just know that I am really enjoying getting to know this person and watching how he deals with this situation.

Me too, and I love it when he whines for when he is done his work is usually top notch. It's almost as if it is some prerequisite that he "needs" to whine to get the job done.

What a person DOES is sometimes so much more revealing than anything he might say.

My dear friend grinder, I have found that what a person does IS more important than what they SAY. Remember, talk is cheap, action is gold.

Mikado

[Rocky]

Gewis wrote:

I don't suppose that visions of the future, waking or dreaming, necessarily have any sort of technological link. Now, given how little we know, I won't rule that out. However, given the sorts of fulfilled prophecies, dreams of future events, and related things that happened historically long before such technologies were developed (if they've been developed), I'm disinclined to believe Linda's premonitions were because of some external technological apparatus. Hmm... but perhaps the mind can reach back in time and touch itself by virtue of its own psychic make-up? I couldn't tell you a mechanism by which that would happen.

One possible explanation involves the Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch OR) theory of consciousness, which is quite controversial. In this theory the brain operates as a quantum computer in nano structures in the neurons called microtubules. Microtubules are in turn made of alpha and beta-tubulin dimers (about 10 to the 7th per neuron). I have seen data indicating 10 to the 16th calculations per second may be made in each microtubule. This suggests tremendous qubits of data per second per neuron. To further complicate things, many believe the brain stores data holographically, which distributes the data in different tubulins in the same and different neurons of the brain. That method of storage would protect data by storing it at multiple locations.

I recall reading about some work by a fellow named Brukner who postulated that entangled photons measured in successive events changed the previous polarization measurements indicating the possibility of communication through time. Interestingly enough some work at the University of Chicago by Sayantani Ghosh a few years ago demonstrated the entanglement of atoms vs. particles. So, it may be possible that the brain actually entangles tubulin dimmers in microtubules as a mechanism for data processing, which results in consciousness, as we know it.

So…if the quantum brain theorists are correct, then the brain operates in part by quantum entanglement and superposition. Perhaps the sudden premonitions people experience may be entangled tubulins communication separated in time. In other words, if you learn or experience something in the future a small number of tubulins previously entangled would still communicate this information in a somewhat vague way to your past consciousness. This would lead to premonitions, dajavue, etc.

Just a thought, which might explain the phenomena.

Rocky

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

That phrase was one that Morgan has told both of us to be aware of and watch out for so I find it exceptionally interesting Rocky that you would use it in your post.

"So…if the quantum brain theorists are correct, then the brain operates in part by quantum entanglement and superposition. Perhaps the sudden premonitions people experience may be entangled tubulins communication separated in time. In other words, if you learn or experience something in the future a small number of tubulins previously entangled would still communicate this information in a somewhat vague way to your past consciousness. This would lead to premonitions, dajavue, etc. "

Rocky, Who today would you consider a prime authority on this field of work?

Lindab and Andrew .... is this the line of discussion you were waiting for?, or is this a surprise?

Elizabeth

[Radomir]

When I read Rocky's post it seemed to correlate strongly with what Andrew and LongboardL had put forward. We'll see whether they agree on that score.

Taking it closer to home, this topic and Rocky's post in particular also correlated with my own experience of deja-vu, which I've had quite frequently throughout my life.

What I find interesting is I experience two different types of deja-vu. Sometimes have deja-vu that I have experienced something before, or am somehow remembering it as I am experiencing it.

But I also have deja-vu where I feel I have already vividly dreamed about that experience in the past, sometimes years previously. The latter is qualitatively and subjectively a different sensation, deja-vu of having been somewhere or done something in the past, versus deja-vu of having dreamed about it.

I had read a theory a long time ago that deja-vu was "just the brain processing things through memory before it gets to your conscious mind" just a minor and occasional glitch in the machine. Nothing to worry about, folks. But yet I have always attached far more meaning to my experiences of that deep familiarity with a situation--even if it is a rather pedestrian and ho-hum moment, it makes me feel like I'm somehow "still on the right track."

[What does that say about a brain that may be concerned with staying on track with one's own timeline?]

Thanks to Andrew, LongboardL and Rocky for the work they put into their thoughtful and thought-provoking posts.

Radomir

[Chris Knight]

Somewhere in the ballpark.

[Rocky]

Elizabeth,

Sir Roger Penrose, (Emeritus Roush Ball Professor of Mathematics University of Oxford) and Stuart Hameroff (Professor Emeritus, Departments of Anesthesiology and Psychology, Center for Consciousness, University of Arizona) are the two main proponents of the theory of Orchestrated Object Reduction.


It's a very interesting theory, which deviates from "standard" ideas a bit. But isn't that true for most groundbreaking discoveries?

Rocky

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Notice what has happened here folks. Mr. Twigsanpper gave LindaB and me a clue to follow and just look hoiw it all loops back on itself.

Thank you Rocky/ I took " Stuart Hameroff" and googled him with "Elizabeth Rauscher" knowing when I hit that button I was going to get something. Interesting considerations, cdertainly. An interesting scent in the air Mr. Tiwgsnapper. How are we doing?

http://www.lightconnectiononline.com/article3.html

Note this:
Consciousness is also described as the ability to think and perceive. Thoughts, perception, and consciousness are the key players in understanding the connections between the paranormal and the normal, just as they are the key players in determining the outcome of a quantum physics experiment. The non-locality experiments of physicist Alain Aspect and his research team in 1982 proved that space is “non-localâ€

[twigsnapper]

Very well done Elizabeth,

If I were to ask Linda Brown what should be looked at next in this investigation, I would wager she would say " Look toward Beau Kitselmans work in math and his ideas on " conciousness". Not speaking for her, of course, but that would be my guess on her reaction.

And Lindab, I certainly would continue keeping my eye out for Dr. Elizabeth Rauscher.

In fact, Elizabeth R ..... if your ears are burning<g> ( and such things seem possible) would you join us here on the forum? Your work has been outstanding and since you personally met Dr. Brown in , was it early 1985? I would certainly be interested in what your subject of conversation might have been with him and the circumstances surrounding that meeting. Your turn? twigsnapper

[ETernalightwithin]

Taking it closer to home, this topic and Rocky's post in particular also correlated with my own experience of deja-vu, which I've had quite frequently throughout my life.

What I find interesting is I experience two different types of deja-vu. Sometimes have deja-vu that I have experienced something before, or am somehow remembering it as I am experiencing it.

But I also have deja-vu where I feel I have already vividly dreamed about that experience in the past, sometimes years previously. The latter is qualitatively and subjectively a different sensation, deja-vu of having been somewhere or done something in the past, versus deja-vu of having dreamed about it.
Radomir

Funny, I'm like that too. I usually get one dejavu moment a day. SOmetimes 4-5 times a day. Everytime it drives me nuts cause I never really resolve it. I just get that feeling that, "I've read that book." "I've been here before" "I know that person" Even if I'm sure I've never encountered that before!
Perhaps I need training? Where would one go to develop such a thing?

[flowperson]

Radomkir, ETLWN:

That makes three of us.

Also, thanks Rocky for confirming for me that the brain is fully reflective in its structures as other of our universal building blocks are as to us. As I've said before regarding the beliefs of the ancients, "as above...so below".

flow....

[LongboardLOVELY]

Lindab and Andrew .... is this the line of discussion you were waiting for?, or is this a surprise?

I can't speak for Andy, but this was kind of what I was waiting for.... there's much more to be talked about.

AND from that same website, EHD:

Radin, author of “The Conscious Universeâ€

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

You beat me to the mention of " Entangled Minds" Lindab ..... coincidence? No, I think we are just doing what others might be writing about. and here is another strange entanglement. Remember Pauls constant reference to Alice in Wonderland ..... Eldridge Johnson, owner of the Caroline .... was so fascinated by that story that he HAD to own the original manuscript, which he kept on board that yacht in a waterproofed display case. It meant something to him because he understood that it represented something beyond common understanding and he could see that world at work.

Paul has used sections from the book to introduce his chapter. and just look at the " coincidental" reference here .... from Radin's " Entangled Minds"
http://www.deanradin.com/NewWeb/EMindex.html

One of the most surprising discoveries of modern physics is that objects aren't as separate as they may seem. When you drill down into the core of even the most solid-looking material, separateness dissolves. All that remains, like the smile of the Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland, are relationships extending curiously throughout space and time. These connections were predicted by quantum theory and were called "spooky action at a distance" by Albert Einstein. One of the founders of quantum theory, Erwin Schrödinger, dubbed this peculiarity entanglement, saying "I would not call that one but rather the characteristic trait of quantum mechanics."

The deeper reality suggested by the existence of entanglement is so unlike the world of everyday experience that until recently, many physicists believed it was interesting only for abstract theoretical reasons. They accepted that the microscopic world of elementary particles could become curiously entangled, but those entangled states were assumed to be fleeting and have no practical consequences for the world as we experience it. That view is rapidly changing.

Scientists are now finding that there are ways in which the effects of microscopic entanglements "scale up" into our macroscopic world. Entangled connections between carefully prepared atomic-sized objects can persist over many miles. There are theoretical descriptions showing how tasks can be accomplished by entangled groups without the members of the group communicating with each other in any conventional way. Some scientists suggest that the remarkable degree of coherence displayed in living systems might depend in some fundamental way on quantum effects like entanglement. Others suggest that conscious awareness is caused or related in some important way to entangled particles in the brain. Some even propose that the entire universe is a single, self-entangled object.

What if these speculations are correct? What would human experience be like in such an interconnected universe? Would we occasionally have numinous feelings of connectedness with loved ones at a distance? Would such experiences evoke a feeling of awe that there's more to reality than common sense implies? Could "entangled minds" result in the experience of your hearing the telephone ring and somehow knowing - instantly - who's calling? If we did have such experiences, could they be due to real information that somehow bypassed the usual sensory channels, or are such reports mere delusions? Can psychic or "psi" experiences be studied by science, or are they beyond the reach of rational understanding?

These are the questions explored in this book. In a nutshell, we'll find that there's substantial experimental evidence indicating that some psi experiences are genuine. We'll also learn that one reason for persistent scientific skepticism about psi is due to outdated assumptions about the nature of reality. For centuries, scientists assumed that everything can be explained by mechanisms analogous to clockworks. But over the course of the 20th century, we've learned that this common sense assumption is wrong. When the fabric of reality is examined very closely, nothing resembling clockworks can be found. Instead, reality is woven from strange, "holistic" threads that aren't located precisely in space or time. Tug on a dangling loose end from this fabric of reality, and the whole cloth twitches, instantly, throughout all space and time.

Science is at the very earliest stages of understanding entanglement, and there is much yet to learn. But what we've seen so far provides a new way of thinking about psi. No longer are psi experiences regarded as rare human talents, divine gifts, or "powers" that magically transcend ordinary physical boundaries. Instead, psi becomes an unavoidable consequence of living in an interconnected, entangled physical reality. Psi is reframed from a bizarre anomaly that doesn't fit into the normal world - and hence labeled paranormal - into a natural phenomenon of physics.

The idea of the universe as an interconnected whole is not new; for millennia it's been one of the core assumptions of Eastern philosophies. What is new is that Western science is slowly beginning to realize that some elements of that ancient lore might be correct. Of course, adopting a new ontology is not to be taken lightly. When it comes to serious topics like the nature of reality, it's sensible to adopt the conservative maxim, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." So we're obliged to carefully examine whether psi is a real phenomenon. If the conclusion is positive, then one or more of our previous assumptions may be broken and we'll need to come up with alternatives.

As we explore the concept of psi as "entangled minds," we'll consider examples of psi experiences in life and lab, we'll review the origins of psi research, we'll explore the results of thousands of controlled laboratory tests, and we'll debunk skeptical myths about psi. Then we'll explore the fabric of reality as revealed by modern physics and see why it's becoming increasingly relevant to understanding why and how psi exists. At the end, we'll find that the 19th century English poet, Francis Thompson, may have said it best:


All things by immortal power,
Near and Far
Hiddenly
To each other linked are,
That thou canst not stir a flower
Without troubling of a star.

SORRY TO COPY ALL OF THAT, BUT I REALLY THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT. Elizabeth