Primes

[LongboardLOVELY]

I was sitting around at work today ruminating. Do you all know what tomorrow is? The first prime sequential date since January 3, 2005 (01/03/05). There will be three prime dates this year in sequential order -
020307 and Monday 020507 and then in March 030507. The next set of prime numbers won't come up until the year 2011.

Of course, if you live in Europe or Canada this would not apply since the dates are written before the month.

Significance? none really. I just thought it was an interesting thing to talk about. I have always liked numbers. That's probably why I do what I do. It's all about numbers.



LongboardLOVELY

[Victoria Steele]

Linda, since you are talking about numbers and since I retired from the field of discussion with Paul, bent but unbeaten on this same subject .... here is my chance to get another opinion on the math problem we had a battle over recently.

You might use Pauls search for the " Three cowboys" math problem or if you haven't heard it ask Andrew to tell it to you ....

oh hell , I might as well restate it just in case someone new here missed the discussion!

As Linda Brown expressed it to Paul a long time ago .....
Three cowboys check into a motel room. The room they understood to be $30.00 so each one pulls out a ten dollar bill and they get settled into their room. The manager comes by later, notices that the room should have been 25.00 instead so he gives the clerk five single dollar bills with the suggestion that one dollar should be given back to each cowboy, and if it meets with their approval he should keep the other two dollars as a tip. He does exactly that and everybody is happy.

Except one of the cowboys later asks himself. "Lets see ...... each one of us got a dollar back for the ten that we spent. And combined we paid the two dollars to the clerk for a tip. Theres the five dollar refund. BUT when you look at it another way . After our refund Each of us then paid nine dollars for the room (times three) .... is ...... twenty-seven ..... and then you add the two that the clerk has ...... that makes it twenty nine .... so where did the other dollar go?

Now .... what is your consideration on this Linda? I really would like to hear your answer. Don't look at how the guys mangled that question until you have put forward your opinion, OK? Thanks! Victoria

[twigsnapper]

Victoria, How are you lovely lady?I won't step into your cowboy discussion!

But I wanted to ask LindaB why in the world she was " ruminating on prime numbers". Now there alot of things that a pretty woman might think about during her worktime day. You enjoy shopping? So I thought perhaps that? Or travel (perhaps romantic Alaska?) or a hundred other things..... but numbers?

If I were working my old position and observing you and you had made that statement to someone, I would say that you were retreating into familiar territory (and which is more familiar to you than numbers?) because the stress level of your outside position was becoming unbearable. And actually you would perhaps prefer to respond to that but have reined yourself in. Its a pressured situation and you should find a way to let it go.

Are you continuing your martial arts? Do you have a good Sensei?

I was a boxer. You would be surprised what boxing taught me as a young man. And as an old man! Take care of yourself and don't let them get to you! Remember for every move someone makes there is ALWAYS a countermeasure.

And what does this discussion have to do with Townsend Brown? Well perhaps someone should ask "What did he do when the stress of his double (and sometimes triple or more!) life overwhelmed him?"

You think that he was so strong that never happened? He was human. Put yourself in his place. There were some things that he could share with no one. ( Not even his beloved Josephine) How did he release that pressure? By going back to the things that were familiar perhaps. Splashing in water! Sailing! Paying attention to the details of his mysterious numbers.

And he had one other release valve which was there for him but still had to be protected. His daughter!

Paul, even before she was born messages to her, disguised as fiction became his "release valve. Those became his "private diary". Do you see that? The phrase " Daughter these words are as true .... " come to mind . twigsnapper

[kevin.b]

Twigsnapper,
This mad hatters tea party place just becomes stranger and stranger.
I too used to be a boxer, for aprox seven years, its called schoolboy boxing here.
I boxed for a leading mens clothier, who's headquaters were in Leeds, where I was born.
They had a massive sports complex, Burtons tailoring.
I was super fit, and revelled in the edge it places you at, your wits need to be sharp, and your hand eye co ordination spot on.
Many things seem as though I was just learning along the way, so that if a really big test comes my way, I will be ready, strange feeling it not too far off.
So I am prepared for the unexpected, and will be on guard and ready.
I bet you 10/6d it will be far from what all expect
Kevin

[twigsnapper]

Sometimes kevin, I think there are some things only a boxer would understand.

William Stephenson was a fine boxer too. The two of you have much in common. twigsnapper

[kevin.b]

Twigsnapper,
Perhaps the right side of my brain was knocked into action?
I did not like been hit, I seldom was.
How do you know where a fast thrown punch is going?
Your wits are really sharpened up?
After that followed several years where testosterone ruled other regions.
Then twenty years of fishing, I am very good at chasing invisable objects.
Just because your eyes cant see the fish, doesn't mean your senses dont see the fish.
Kevin

[LongboardLOVELY]

If I were working my old position and observing you and you had made that statement to someone, I would say that you were retreating into familiar territory (and which is more familiar to you than numbers?) because the stress level of your outside position was becoming unbearable. And actually you would perhaps prefer to respond to that but have reined yourself in. Its a pressured situation and you should find a way to let it go.

Are you continuing your martial arts? Do you have a good Sensei?

I was a boxer. You would be surprised what boxing taught me as a young man. And as an old man! Take care of yourself and don't let them get to you! Remember for every move someone makes there is ALWAYS a countermeasure.

Hmm. So I'm that transparent

I do have a very good sensei, but since it is Shaolin, Qi Gong, Bagwa that I'm working through, he's called a Lao Shr, but it's the same thing. He said to me one night, as we were doing our fighting and boxing and ground maneuvers, that the best defense is to not be there. And the best offense is to be there quickly and not leave yourself open. We were practicing push hands. Have you heard of that? So I'm using that philosophy (of not being there/or releasing the opponents' energy to their detriment) at work. Thinking about numbers is a nice way to retreat, but not reacting is also. I can feel for Brown. My situation is definitely not as complicated, but probably just as frustrating.

When it warms up, I'l take to the waters again. I miss it. The wild freedom and aloneness when you're out in the ocean

Did you box before your joined the military, or after you joined, Mr. Twignsapper?

LongboardLOVELY

[LongboardLOVELY]

Victoria,
Andy and I had a very lovely discussion about that math conundrum. I had heard it both in my college level calculus classes and in my philosophy classes. It's fun to work through Nice puzzle!

Now .... what is your consideration on this Linda? I really would like to hear your answer. Don't look at how the guys mangled that question until you have put forward your opinion, OK? Thanks! Victoria

Well, here's the rub. Where do you think three cowboys traveling together could possibly get a room for $30!!?

I'll have to go back and re-reread (yup I meant that) again to get to the heart of that discussion. I generally remember that it wasn't about the math.

I have a few more like that that you'd find interesting, but I'll save it for you for my next post; maybe when I'm at work and trying to not be there

How's the romance?

So happy it's Saturday
LongboardLOVELY

[grinder]

LindaB,

No, I don't think you are at all transparent. I just think that Mr. Twigsnapper is a very skilled individual at what he does, Amazing to me.

I wonder how many people have been faced with knowing material that they could not possibly share with anyone? And I wonder how many of those people had sit down to write what they called "science fiction" .... knowing all the time that it was the truth that was stranger than even the fiction they wrote?

So are you ranked yet Linda? Does Andrew go to the classes too?

I wondered in all this talk of martial arts if Morgan did that kind of stuff too? I wouldn't have thought that there might be different "schools " or disciplines but now that Linda has mentioned it I wondered ...... Paul, do you know if Morgan was a black belt? And in what martial art? grinder

[Rocky]

All,

As Linda Brown expressed it to Paul a long time ago .....
Three cowboys check into a motel room. The room they understood to be $30.00 so each one pulls out a ten dollar bill and they get settled into their room. The manager comes by later, notices that the room should have been 25.00 instead so he gives the clerk five single dollar bills with the suggestion that one dollar should be given back to each cowboy, and if it meets with their approval he should keep the other two dollars as a tip. He does exactly that and everybody is happy.

Except one of the cowboys later asks himself. "Lets see ...... each one of us got a dollar back for the ten that we spent. And combined we paid the two dollars to the clerk for a tip. Theres the five dollar refund. BUT when you look at it another way . After our refund Each of us then paid nine dollars for the room (times three) .... is ...... twenty-seven ..... and then you add the two that the clerk has ...... that makes it twenty nine .... so where did the other dollar go?

The cowboy math riddle is explained this way. They paid 25 dollars for the room plus the 2 dollar tip. The total amount paid was 27 dollars. The mistake occurs when the cowboy adds the tip to the 27 dollars. The 27 dollars includes the tip. The total amount they paid divided by 3 is exactly 9 dollars for the tip and room. They each paid $8.33 dollars for the room and $.66 for the tip. There is no extra dollar, only a logic mistake in addition.


This riddle is very appropriate for this forum. Much like many other things in the rabbit hole, it’s easy to add when you need to subtract. Often things are not as they first appear.


Rocky

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Rocky,

You know I have profound respect for your abilities in geology and perhaps many other things I don't even know about. And I am sure that Paul is sitting at his keyboard right now saying ..... RIGHT! FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS! And perhaps you all are right after all ..... but let me run it past this one more time. Victoria would have to bring this up. But its a rag doll I have a difficult time putting away.

Please re read the problem. and then explain to me how you came to the conclusion that they paid 27.00 for the room.

The two dollars is accounted for in the original problem ....... three dollars (one each to the cowboys,) two dollars to the clerk ..... is a five dollar return on an overpayment of 30.00. The room was 25.00 and they paid thirty, got five dollars back .... one for each of them and two for the clerk. HOW SIMPLE DOES THAT NEED TO BE TO BE CORRECT? Others out there please read what I have written above. Where in that do I go wrong???? This is part one of the problem and lets just stick with this for the moment.

I can not reconcile in my mind how you can come back with the justification that you reached OTHER THAN you actually needed to make it right when in actuality there is no solution. I know that all of you are going to come up with all kinds of negative responses to my logic. (Paul went so far as to simply discount it as not even logic or math. But someone show me how I am actually wrong .... because I don't buy into either of your explanations.

I know that you THINK you are showing me where I went wrong ..... but are you sure?

If this is such an easy math problem that can be solved by simple addition or subtraction, ( and the fact that there is an anomaly here so impossible to grasp) why would it then, as LindaB suggested .... be discussed in a philosophy class?

If there is anyone out there who actually agrees me with the above situation ......... then we can talk about the other side of this .. and you guys show me where I am wrong on this side.

If each of the guys got a dollar back for the money he paid out ...... and recognizing that there is a tip that has already been paid from their original overpayment of 30.00 ..... a two dollar tip indeed (We have found the five dollars, right folks .... one each to the three cowboys, two to the clerk ... theres the five dollars .... right?)

Just how then did you figure they had paid 27.00 for the room (You included the tip? Is that how you did it?) All very rational?

Elizabeth

[Rocky]

Elizabeth,

The real error is the misdirection in the riddle. The cowboy who is pondering the issue is adding an additional two dollars when he is thinking about the question. They actually only paid 25 dollars for the room, then they tipped the clerk 2 dollars and put the rest in their pockets. The misdirection is in the riddle when it says…â€

[grinder]

LindaB.

I noticed that you decided to repsond to Victoria/Elizabeth and Linda Browns math problem by delaying your answer until you had a chance to discuss it with your husband?

Now I find that disconcerting from a woman who is considering primes just for the heck of it! So I am really interested to see what your response is going to be to all of this.

On one side we seem to have a camp that believes that it is a simple mistake caused by not seeing the problem correctly. I like that actually because it is easier. But I get the nagging feeling that there is more to this.

Last time we went through this Trickfox wanted to call the whole thing off by going to a credit card machine and not cash! , Victoria stalked off saying that she was giving Paul and the others the field (and you actually believed her?) but this time around LindaBs first reaction was a deflection ( how did the cowboys find a room for $30.00?) And I am not entirely sure that Rocky hasn't put his answer forward knowing that others would rise to the discussion, and right now he is probably grinning at us.

But back to you, LindaB .... you are not in your martial arts class here! Deflecting won't work. The cowboys were charged 30.00. They were refunded 5.00. they gave 2.00 of that five to the clerk. They kept the other three dollars, each cowboy keeping one. Have I mis -stated anything?

So why does it fall apart if I would say then ...... that each cowboy could consider that (after paying the 2.00 tip) he had a nine dollar investment in his share of the room. The tip IS accounted for. ....... but why then ..... three times nine is twentyseven ....... and you say that the two dollars that the clerk has should be ....... SUBTRACTED? ...... well, yes .... suddenly .... I can see that ..... then you would come up with the 25.00 that they actually paid. But why is it so hard to see that you need to subtract? I did it just then because I knew that I had to come up with 25.00 ...... but there is still something really wrong with this.

I too wonder what your answer Linda , is going to be, since numbers mean so much to you! And anyone else out there. Impressions? grinder

[kevin.b]

We need to think in nines, count in nines not tens.
The way nature works is in sequence, not reguler.

The nines table rises and falls both sides of the addition and subtraction.
This counting in tens is the con.
The sum is simple , the con was simple, so simple it baffles you.

All of present science is been conned, very simply conned.
We need to copy nature, be at one with how it operates, not some bunch of robbing bankers who are good at maths.

Glad I am learning to spell words correctly.
Kevin

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Rocky,

I am working hard now at trying to figure why it is that my mind just refuses to see this problem.

I think that you have an entirely valid point here, There is just something about this math problem that makes it a wonderful example of, as you say ..... misdirection and this process probably WAS used by Dr. Brown. Wonderfully effectively I think.

You say the cowboys paid 27.00 for the room. Twenty five for the room and a two dollar tip. OK

Physically I was just trying to see it in my mind .... three dollars in their pockets .... two walking down the hall with the clerk. Why shouldn't I add those to come up with the five dollars refund? I could do that ..... grab the three from them, the two from the clerk and I would have the five dollars which would adjust their payment for the room to 25.00. That works for me......

You say that the cowboys paid 27.00 for the room. Nine dollars each .......OK, I can see that But I have to get there by simply recognizing that they paid 27.00 FIRST and then dividing by three. But to get there I have to see that 27.00 first. I was so busy constructing and reconstructing that five dollars to make twenty five I couldn’t see that twenty seven.

The problem I have had is that it is nearly impossible for me to get that image of those two dollars going down the hall, and the three dollars with the cowboys out of my head. That’s the truth too, isn’t it. Isn’t that what happened? And once you have that image in your head ....... its hard to realize that you have to look at everything differently. And it doesn’t help quite frankly when others try to break it down into fractions to make things more clear to you. When they do that they don’t realize what you are dealing with ..... and fractions are in their own way a sleight of hand that in my minds eye were just a silly distraction...

And this is what has been happening with Dr. Browns work. You are quite right. Material I think was presented in such a way so that once the public got a hold of it in their mind .... it created its own diversion. When you KNOW that things add up in one direction you fail to see the other. Thank you so much Rocky for the insight. I can drop the rag doll now. Elizabeth