TWO STORIES, ONE BOOK

[Victoria Steele]

I am opening this thread because I have noticed how really important it is for Paul to tell the story of Townsend Brown by also telling the story of Morgan and Linda and actually there are two stories in this one book.

Quite frankly, I don't know which one is the one I love the most. No, wait, thats not really the truth. Yes I do. Oh, I love the science and the dedication of the story about Townsend Browns life and career but there is something really compelling about the story of Linda and Morgan, And I hafta say, I love it when you go in their direction.

But in the final book will you keep it like this, flipping back and forth> or maybe index it somehow so that folks that want to stay with Linda and Morgan can just pick the appropriate chapters to get a consistent storyline?

I think initially it might be a little confusing to your new readers but once they get the hang of it both stories aid their parallel side. Two, two, two books in one! Victoria

[Mark Culpepper]

Maybe there are three stories in this book. One might not get told but its there anyway, from what I can see.

Strangely too they are spaced about forty years apart.

The first love story, Townsend and Josephine .... first meeting and falling in love in 1927 or so. Forty years later we have Morgan and Lindas relationship ... about 1967 or so though I am not sure because Paul hasn't gotten there yet.

And the continuation of their relationship .... some forty years after they were together. An extension of the Linda and Morgan story. See, thats really the third part. But of course its tough enough getting through the first two stories. I am curious though to see why Morgan came back and why he is helping Paul with the book .... and what is happening now. Like I said .... there are three parts to this book. MarkC

[Martin Calloway]

"Button down types" Isn't that how Mr. Twigsnapper referrd to some of these CIA guys?

I don't remember what the context was, but LindaB came back with the comment that she didn't understand what he meant. He came back with " it was the style shirt " or something similar, but I think maybe that was just a concession. He knew she was too young to understand what one of the early CIA types was actually like and it was just easier to refer to the shirt than to try to explain the depth of the type in human nature.

I think that is going to be the problem with DeNiros " The Good Shepherd" DeNiro loves the age and he has done alot of studying but everyone else (most) ticket buyers have been so dumbed down (as far as that particular history goes,) most of them will not be able to follow the twists and turns. I know just a little about that age so I had some form of reference. I can see others getting glazed over.

There is so much of an age difference in what 80 percent of the audience will be .... not many will actually " GET" the movie. My coffee moneys worth on that but it will sad to see happen.

Although Matt Damon is about as " Buttoned down" as any individual can be! DeNiro made sure I think that what ever natural "bounce" that Matt had was "contained". People are going to appreciate his performance but I wonder if they will ever really understand what that containment costs in real life. What happens when that kind of life is thrust on an individual like Townsend Brown. The guy out sunbathing nude in the dunes? I'd like to see DeNiro try to capture that.

And of course the references to the CIA equating itself to God.... he gets a little heavy with that I think.. but they did think that then so I guess it was right to capture it.

I found the references to James Joyce interesting too. What is it with these intelligence types loving James Joyce? Perhaps its because he reached down past the language and caught something else? And they were the kind that saw what others around them didn't?

If Hollywood doesn't screw up with Dr. Browns story they will have something much more human to relate to. You see, Dr. Brown was operating in the same world but without the protection of that "button down" attitude". Which made him even more complicated, even more fascinating. He didn't have that to fall back on. And he had family support, 1000 percent. And they didn't demand to know what his secrets were before they put their faith in him. How many times do you find that?

I did notice one technical screw up. Old California plates on a car that is supposed to be somewhere in Africa? All that work on detail and that slides past. see, sometimes things get missed when they are in plain sight.

Martin

{moderator's note: we're discussing "The Good Shepherd" here:

viewtopic.php?p=3889#3889

... I hope...}

[Mikado14]

If Hollywood doesn't screw up with Dr. Browns story they will have something much more human to relate to. You see, Dr. Brown was operating in the same world but without the protection of that "button down" attitude". Which made him even more complicated, even more fascinating. He didn't have that to fall back on. And he had family support, 1000 percent. And they didn't demand to know what his secrets were before they put their faith in him. How many times do you find that?

Martin

Martin,

Well, I see you have gotten off to a good start so far with winter up there in Buffalo.

Your last paragraph says something below the surface.

I go to post a response and I see you edited the last paragraph.

You first post read:

"If Hollywood doesn't screw up with Dr. Browns story they will have something much more human to relate to. You see, Dr. Brown was operating in the same world but without the protection of that "button down" attitude".

Just reading that says that you just may have known the man in some capacity due to the structure of the sentence. Am I wrong or right?

Maybe just too too early for me.

Mikado

[Martin Calloway]

Good morning Mikado

Yes, I have had some experience with the "type"

I have been "private" for a long time. But I am familiar with operations dealing with resprayed tail numbers and tropical missions. I got a good laugh out of the grasshopper scene. And ya wonder why people hated us.

Editing as I go because I realized that you were asking if I had contact with Townsend Brown himself. And I can answer that.

Yes, on occasion. He was a charming gentleman who inspired the utmost in loyalty. Luckily I don't think the REALLY nasty side of " the business" ever was allowed close to him. Someone said here that he was like the kid looking happily for the decoder ring and I submit that it was up to others to keep that man and his decoder ring safe and isolated from those concerns so that his mind was free from those "constraints". Get Paul to put a picture of Charles out if he will and you will see the worries of that world on THAT mans face ....... while Dr. Brown seems ........ well. Dr. Brown!

I confine my activities now to reading and talking with old friends.

So again, good morning. Martin

[Mikado14]

Good morning Mikado


Yes, on occasion. He was a charming gentleman who inspired the utmost in loyalty. Luckily I don't think the REALLY nasty side of " the business" ever was allowed close to him. Someone said here that he was like the kid looking happily for the decoder ring and I submit that it was up to others to keep that man and his decoder ring safe and isolated from those concerns so that his mind was free from those "constraints". Get Paul to put a picture of Charles out if he will and you will see the worries of that world on THAT mans face ....... while Dr. Brown seems ........ well. Dr. Brown!

I confine my activities now to reading and talking with old friends.

So again, good morning. Martin

I would wager that you know Mr. Twigsnapper, or, at the very least, of him.

Oh hell, you don't have to answer that, to me, it is highly and probably apparent.

Ignore the man hiding behind the loden coat on <g>

Mikado

[Mikado14]

Maybe there are three stories in this book. One might not get told but its there anyway, from what I can see.

Strangely too they are spaced about forty years apart.

Just a passing thought.

Don't all well written stories (books) have subplots?

The oddity here is to have it within a biography, at least from my view.

But it is interesting.

Mikado

[Martin Calloway]

Oh, just another thing.

In the movie, when you see it, if you do .... when they are talking about the Bay of Pigs invasion there is mention of two B29s which were "shot down"

Those guys had trained in Nicaragua and were of course under CIA directives. Bissell on April 19th was ordered to the White House where Robert Kennedy got into his face and screamed " Those American pilots had better be goddamned dead" ............ Of course he was worried about his brothers public image if word got out and they were displayed as prisoners.

When faced with that sort of stuff .... it pays to have a button down attitude. Martin

[Victoria Steele]

Hey, I just saw the " Good Shepherd" too . I think talking about THAT movie here is an excellent idea because I think there are things to be learned here.

One thought I had. I wondered AFTER Morgan got drawn into his particular world ( which is alot like the Damons character ... we will call him " Edward") I wondered what romantic situations came in his direction then.

Look. Here you have a kid who was collecting naked girls during his high school years. Then he runs into Linda Brown. Well, I'll bet she was perhaps a more interesting naked girl in his head, but still.

Edward is faced with never being able to trust his bed partners. So what happens with a kid like Morgan, who I think happens to REALLY like women?

Someone recently told me that the only safe bedpartner is someone in the same business. So, if that was the case, couldn't Morgan and Linda just have been able to work together? Couldn't they have married like Dr. Brown and Josephine did, and still maintain the security that was important. Why was it so important for Linda to be kept out of the mix?

Well, maybe I just answered my own question. Perhaps if Morgans "job" was more like Townsend Browns had been ....... sort of sunshine and hopefulness ..... they would have been allowed to stay togethr. But I have always gotten the impression thats NOT why Morgan was pulled into the group. They needed a "Security man" and it chills me to think of it but thats what Morgan was destined to be. He was the brick wall put up to keep Dr. Brown safe. And I have learned that brick walls are just that. Nothing gets past them. Learning all the time. Victoria

{Moderators note: discussion of "The Good Shepherd" will continue here:
viewtopic.php?p=3889#3889}

[Martin Calloway]

Mikado,

This is a message for you and for Paul.

I had a friend once who was a damned good pilot. I happened to be along on one flight with an ops crew. (Oh, hello Mikado , you knew some of what it was like. We weren't sitting on our helmets but maybe we should have been. Came slipping in all smoke and bulletholes.) My friend managed to get us down and we all ran from the wreck as it burst into flames. He was "upset" that he had lost his plane, but the leader of the group (a young guy but with apparent invisible rank), came up and sat beside us. He asked why my friend was upset and something about " on his record came up, the loss of a ship. The guy said. "Don't worry about it. It didn't happen." You see, it was Cambodia and we weren't there.

After this incident my friend earned the respected handle "Bentfeather". and I believe that he and Paul have had the occasion or two to get to know each other. And to answer your question re Mr. Twigsnapper. He likes to fly and it takes a crew. Martin

[Mikado14]

Mikado,

This is a message for you and for Paul.

(Oh, hello Mikado , you knew some of what it was like. We weren't sitting on our helmets but maybe we should have been. Came slipping in all smoke and bulletholes.)

Only from the side of a UH-1 holding on to a 50 cal, of all places, Fort Gordon, Ga.

Now everyone nows I was stationed there.

Best,.

Mikado

PS: Is Mr. Twigsnapper any good at chess? Or does he think he is? (I bet this gets a rise out that Irishman <g> How about you Martin?

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Hello everyone,

Interesting discussion. I should be taking a vacation from all this but I can't stay away!

I just saw that movie last night too and I totally agree with you Martin. I think that DeNiro likes the subject so much and knows it so well that he has forgotten that most of the audience is just not going to be up to speed.

I enjoyed it of course because I have had sort of an insiders view, being able to talk with Mr. Twigsnapper about that age. What makes it confusing to me though is they sort of "blended " personalities for this " Edward" character. I saw an interview where DeNiro said that was intentional because he didn't want to be painted into a strict biography and wanted a little more freedom to tell the story.

Was it just me or did anyone else have trouble just keeping track of the caracters? They all looked so alike to me, these early OSS guys, fraternity brothers, white, repbublican, wealthy , priveledged and well connected. They all look alike. The phrase I first heard from Mr. Twigsnapper was "the Oh So Social" for the OSS.

And " Edward is living in such confinement. Even the film concentrates on closeup details. The "outside" is also tightened and constructed. Either Berlin city streets with them in the middle ... Or Washington DC buildings that sort of tower above the characters .... or crowded buses .... stifling dinner parties .... its all so CLOSE. So DeNiro has done a good job of translating that but I just wonder if the audience will even get it.

Good luck trying to jam Townsend Browns story into that sort of setting. We got sunshine and palm trees and seaplanes, yachts ...... a constant change of scene. Its got to be an entirely different movie thats for sure. Elizabeth

{moderator's note: we're discussing "The Good Shepherd" here:

viewtopic.php?p=3889#3889

--PS}

[twigsnapper]

Mikado,
Oh, I STILL think that I can do just about anything. As was the drill when I was a kid. Said I could swim then. Nobody asked me how long. Same situation here. I can do ANYTHING. For a moment. <g>
twigsnapper

[Mikado14]

Mikado,
Oh, I STILL think that I can do just about anything. As was the drill when I was a kid. Said I could swim then. Nobody asked me how long. Same situation here. I can do ANYTHING. For a moment. <g>
twigsnapper

So how long did you swim for? I would wager that it was much like my sister......a rock.

I do have a question, as always and I know that it will not be answered and if it is, it is by parable.

You are old enough to be my father but yet your clarity of vision belies your age. If what you say is true, you were born approximately in '25, maybe '26. Are you really who you say you are? And if so, when?

Here's a hoot, I would bet navy beans to dollars that our mercurial Morgan is an active viewer if not poster on this forum. Much like a drover. Care to wager? and on whom?

Just another........Mikado thought or whatever,

Mikado

[twigsnapper]

Mikado,

You and I must share many things. Curiosity for one.

Am I who I have said I am? Who have I said I am? The next phrase should be something about green eggs and ham.

How old do I look in Paris in 1956?

The weather must be as bad in your neighborhood as it is in mine at the moment .... or you and I would be out doing something else besides trading riddles.

Here is one for you. I was about the same age as Morgan when Dr. Brown put his hand on my shoulder when I was crying, and on my knees in mud. I don't think Morgan was actually crying the same way I was but he needed that hand on his shoulder. He was too smart for his own good in a world that would have never offered him enough challenges. Dr. Brown did that, and for me too. I was a nasty kid. Overshadowed Morgans escapades by a big length and I had nowhere to go and no reason to go anywhere but worse.

I look back and I see that men like Morgan have indeed made a difference for the better. No one will ever know and it is supposed to be that way. But if it takes men like Morgan to safeguard the flame that was Dr. Brown then I would say that we have all served a good purpose. Spoken of, or not.

Is Morgan a "drover" on this forum. No. Try again. twigsnapper