Pearl Harbor Demonstration

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Andrew,

Interesting comment regarding Townsend Browns patent #3022430. It makes a sound?

Elizabeth

[Chris Knight]

Elizabeth,

I was just curious what anyone interested in this technology might expect an apparatus like that to sound like. Perhaps a hiss with the fuel input similar to an electrostatic hiss, or maybe a load, deep roar, which might be unexpected.

Andrew
Qualight, L.L.C.

[Chris Knight]

Grinder,

That's a lot of interesting information you've found !

Please let me hypothesize a situation in the direction I think you are going. Correct me if you think I'm way off base.

Around 1926-27 Townsend is associated with Dr. Biefeld in Zanesville. from Paul's notes, we find that there was, in fact, some strong association concerning Townsend's work.

However, Linda Brown once told me a conversation she had with her father in which he said under now uncertain terms (vehemently) that no German was to be spoken in their house. I recently asked her whether she felt that type of response might be generated from his time over in Germany, or perhaps the betrayal of someone trusted - she indicated the latter. Biefeld never acknowledged Townsend's work and even seemed to be disdainful of his work (according to Biefeld's son).

Forward to around 1936. Townsend is basically still in Zanesville after taking some interesting cruises. The whole scene of Townsend losing his finger comes up with some conflicting stories - one involving a lathe accident. From Mr. Twigsnapper, perhaps a more correct version, is that there is a "scuffle" where the scientist collapses into a chair, two men are shot, and a man steps out from the shadows, perhaps our Morgan (I think the identity was still up in the air). [I mean a "Morgan-type" - thank you Grinder for pointing out my mistake].

Next thing you know, Josephine and Townsend are divorced to be later remarried a few years later.

Also, Mr. Twigsnapper (I believe) once said that (in another situation) some rescued field agents went on to exact some revenge and some did not.

SO, I'd like to submit a hypothesis (I had help on this one):

We don't know much about Dr. Biefeld, his leanings, loyalties, or sympathies. The only German connection that I might suggest would be Brown's association with Biefeld. His and Biefeld's later respective reactions might be explained that way. Now, Townsend's continuation of calling the effect "The Biefeld-Brown Effect," would seem strange if that were the case.

Let's say two German agents jumped Townsend, their agency having become aware of Townsend's research and/or association with Stephenson through some conduit. That whole scene plays out.

Right after that, Townsend and Josephine get divorced. She goes off to Washington DC. Perhaps, going back to the "exacting revenge" comment, she was looking for someone's head to hang a hat on, for hurting Townsend. Now, I know that if someone tried to do me harm, LindaB would be a fiery wraith on their trail, and would do everything she could to drop them in their tracks. We already know they had a very special relationship. I wouldn't put it past Josephine either.

In any case, there is another scene where Townsend goes to Germany to find his colts (?) - the results of his research (now you know I am not a horse person). How might results of his research gotten there in the first place - maybe the same conduit ?

Andrew
Qualight, L.L.C.

[grinder]

Andrew,

Interesting thread but you don't actually mean "Morgan " here do you ?... just someone who maybe was doing the same type of job? A Carolyn security man? Yes, I can see that.

But I think you are reaching pretty good. Has anyone ever questioned Dr. Biefelds loyalties? I know I made the association but I don't think I had jumped to believing that he was a Nazi sympathizer. Its an interesting scenario though, for sure. How do you go about proving all that though?

It is interesting though that Mr. Twigsnapper told that story about the man slumped in the chair and the person stepping out of the shadow. What was his reason in telling that. I believe it was DavidB who made the comment that sometimes telling just bits and pieces gives the proper understanding without divulging the totality of the situation, so maybe thats what he was doing with us on the forum. Why else would he bother to tell us that story? I have the strongest impression that he doesn't write something without having a reason. So what did he mean for us to get from it? grinder

[Chris Knight]

Grinder,

Yes, I meant "Morgan-type." Thank you for pointing that out.

I apparently have my own time-slip problems.

In any case, I can't prove anything that I said there except the facts as pointed out (hence my "weasel words" - maybe, perhaps, etc.) and the rest is entirely supposition. Throwing isolated facts together in a hypothetical situation and discussing the strengths and flaws of the theory is sometimes the best we can do.

Also, I don't know much about Dr. Biefeld at all. After seeing "The Good Shepherd" with LindaB the other night, it was pretty obvious that situations can become quite complicated. Do we know anything about Dr. Biefeld?

This is from Wikpedia:

"Paul Alfred Biefeld (22 March 1867 – 1940) was born in Königswalde, Germany, trained in Switzerland, and emigrated to the United States. He was an astronomer and physicist. At points in his career, he taught at Denison University in Granville, Ohio and the California Institute of Technology. He is best known for research into the Biefeld-Brown effect with Thomas Townsend Brown."

I notice it says he taught at CalTech (I don't have any dates). I wonder if there was any connection between that and Townsend's brief stint there.

Andrew
Qualight, L.L.C.

{Moderators note: discussion of "The Good Shepherd" will continue here:
viewtopic.php?p=3889#3889}

[Paul S.]

This is from Wikpedia:

"Paul Alfred Biefeld (22 March 1867 – 1940) was born in Königswalde, Germany, trained in Switzerland, and emigrated to the United States. He was an astronomer and physicist. At points in his career, he taught at Denison University in Granville, Ohio and the California Institute of Technology. He is best known for research into the Biefeld-Brown effect with Thomas Townsend Brown."

Born in Germany, eh? That one's a surprise to me. I thought he was a born American, but will have to go back to my own files to verify that. I did a brief Biefeld bio in Chapter 12:

- - -

https://www.ttbrown.com/defying_gravity ... brown.html

Dr. Paul Alfred Biefeld was appointed the first director of the new Swazey Observatory at Denison University in Granville, Ohio, when it opened in 1911, and simultaneously assumed the post of Chairman of the University’s equally new Department of Astronomy. Prior to his arrival in Granville, Biefeld had received his B.S. degree in Electrical Engineering from the University of Wisconsin in 1894 and — following the trail of Robert Millikan and other Americans to Europe — went to Switzerland and received his doctorate from the Polytechnic University in Zurich in 1900.

- - - -

I'll have to see what else I've got in the morning.

--PS

[Victoria Steele]

I guess that quite a few of us have seen that movie " The Good Shepherd".

It helped me a little trying to imagine what it was like for Townsend Brown on board the Caroline. It looked just like those fancy "retreat dinner parties" that the " Society" kept having. out there where they could be alone with others like them. Look at the party on the yacht. Does it seem the same.

And I'll just bet that when Stephenson stepped on board there were hushed conversations about " that Hitler" and how they could set up against his growing interests in the world.

Also reminded me that was a tough time with spies and counterspies and getting information was of primary imortance. And there was our dear Dr. Brown. I keep thinking that he was so gentle and innocent but he couldn't have been. Underneath all that he had to be one tough cookie.

But this was an age when Hitler was trying hard to glean as much information as possible and technology was at the top of the list. I realize now that it would have NOT been a surprise to find Dr. Biefeld reporting to some " german friends" about this bright and promising student ..... who happened to have this unique idea. What was it that Bielfeld said about the promise of this technology? You wrote about it Paul in that chapter where you mentioned your visit to the Denison library. I can't find it now ... but Biefeld had said something very complimentary about the promise and importance of such technology. "is novel and valuable leading to probable indentification and measurement of forces hitherto not recognized".......... and then he made no mention of working with Townsend Brown at all. In fact even discounted knowing him?

I smell a rat.

Or maybe he just innocently mentioned this bright student to some German friends ...... and they did the rest? Victoria

{Moderators note: discussion of "The Good Shepherd" will continue here:
viewtopic.php?p=3889#3889}

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Could it be that we are missing how such important developments "come to" receptive minds. The one scenario painted above was that perhaps Townsend Brown was the originator of the "idea' then the information was "leaked" to Germany.

Perhaps too information "flowed" in the other direction, through Dr. Biefeld to a receptive Townsend Brown.

But remember what Paul has written ? That Dr. Brown already had the concept in his head and that Dr. Biefeld confirmed his thoughts. "
The Capacitor! was the common word.

It strikes me suddenly that we are looking at something we just learned on another side of this forum. A natural avoidance of "either / or". There the discussion of "flow" came up. Where things in the Universe could perhaps happen in BOTH DIRECTIONS SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Perhaps that is how inspiration and yes, communication with this "other intelligence" happens. Perhaps it strikes everywhere at the same time? So the kid in Zanesville and others are having exactly the same inspired thought. Its just that some "seeds' flourish and some do not. So the " German Flying Saucer program" didn't have to necessarily be " stolen" from Dr. Browns early work. It could have generated separately. But it is essentially the same "idea".

As far as recognizing your " colts in the corral". I think that Mr. Twigsnapper said something like recognizing BLOODLINES. Which is a little different than having a particular colt stolen and then retreived.

Its early. Did I just make any sense to anybody? Elizabeth

[Paul S.]

I can see you guys have been busy busy busy while I've been goofing off over the holidays... I see there is a LOT I need to study and address... I just seem to be jumping in here...

Who was this Beau Kitselman then and what has he been doing all this time? What did he do after the " Pearl Harbor Demonstration".

We have had some (minimal) contact with the Kitselman family. Our experience so far suggests that his heirs don't know a whole lot more about their father's coming and goings than Linda Brown knew about hers until certain individuals with first-hand knowledge started to show up and fill in some of the blanks (and create whole reams of new ones...). Nevertheless, I am going to renew those contacts with the Kitselman family in the coming week(s) and see if we can get any answers to those kinds of questions.

and ... you said at Vegas that he took his family (including the grandmother?) to Hawaii to keep them safe from " the bomb" .... but when did the Russians explode their first bomb ...... wasn't that in 1950?

1949, actually, but in either case, the Russians set off their first nukes at least two years AFTER Brown stashed his family in the jungles of Kauai. I think the "keep them safe from the bomb" angle is a story that actually came up AFTER he returned to the mainland in 1950 (or maybe it was 1951). That was the story that I heard from some folks who knew the Browns when they lived in Catalina; I honestly don't know WHAT the story was when he told Josephine and Joseph (who was then a teenager) that they would all be moving to Hawaii; and unfortunately, Linda was only like two years old, so she certainly doesn't remember, either.

If so , is that why Dr. Browns "Group" was showing this technology to the Navy? To stay ahead of the Russians?

Yes, that's the way I understand it; when the Ruskies detonated their first nuke, the "balance of power" was restored; the technology that was demonstrated at Pearl Harbor was intended to shift the balance back in favor of the U.S. and the West.

And then, Oh shit, to discover that there was a mole in the proceedings. Reminds me of Murphy's law. Whatever can go wrong ... will go wrong.

The thing that still mystifies me is that the "disinformation campaign" that Brown embarked on after Pearl Harbor might have actually worked, i.e. driven the Russians off the trail of whatever Brown had demonstrated at Pearl. And then, of course, there are suggestions that the Russians had their own clandestine efforts to develop things (read: Kozyrev).

I suspect that "Murphy's Law" is the least of it.

--PS

[Paul S.]

Can anybody give me more information on this?

http://missilegate.com/rfz/rocket.htm

grinder, did you find that link through the Yahoo Lifters group? Or did you somehow find it on your own? Curious in either case that it would suddenly show up, because I've not seen it before this week.

Which is ironic, because the material linked here is a chapter from a book called "Hitler's Flying Saucers" which is just one of many books I have on my shelf that I have opened but not made it entirely through (I wish I'd done better in those "speed reading" courses I took years ago...). This material appears on pages 129-138.

especially noting that the date is 1947. Lets see ........ where is Brown?...UFO reports over LA ..... where is Brown? ....... UFO reports over Washington DC .... where is Brown?

That would require correlating exact dates with exact dates. There is something fishy about that UFO flap over DC in 1952, though. Jeez, I hope I can find it... but there is a reference in some UFO book to a "scientist" who predicted that flap in '52, and while he's not identified in that book, "my sources" tell me the 'scientist' in this instance was you-know-who.

Nobody has ever really asked those questions I think. And until Pauls entrance with his careful collection of facts on the man, no one has even known where he was. Just knowing that sometimes is sure helpful.

Yeah, and even I have a hard time remembering the wheres and whens. It's not like the guy ever stayed in one place for long. Definitely a moving target. That's why it's not enough to mention a year. Ya gotta know at least what month, if not what day or minute, to get any kind of correlation.

More in a minute...

--PS

[Paul S.]

So, can you tell us Mr. Twigsnapper if this was actually a "Carolyn Group" operation"

FYI, it's "Caroline," not "Carolyn." As for Mr. Twigsnapper, well he's been quiet for a few days... which leads me to believe that he's lying on a beach somewhere soaking up some rays...

I find it very interesting that the " flame jet generator" is mentioned in this article. Who is this guy?

"This guy" is Henry Stevens, author of "Hitler's Flying Saucers." You now know as much about him as I do. But I will also add, with some trepdiation, that this book, "Hitler's Flying Saucers," is published by Adventures Unlimited Press -- the same folks who brought you Gerry Vassilatos' "Lost Science." Guilt by association? I report... YOU decide...<g>

Top: T.T. Brown's Top: T.T. Brown's flame-jet generator, capable of supplying millions of volts.

I think the operative expression here is "millions of VOLTS." I think we've pretty well established that it takes lots of voltage to make a gravitator-type device work efficiently. Note, we're talking about voltage here, NOT current. And apparently, it's a neat trick to generate megavolts without also producing substantial currents (amps).

Is this the same device that disappears from view in the 60s ?

Yes.

Did he demonstrate this to the Navy at Pearl?

I don't believe so. As I understand it, as I stated in Las Vegas, what was demonstrated at Pearl in 1950 consisted of two components, a propulsion device (tethered saucers) and a communications device (presumably "electro-gravitic" communications). I don't think the flame-jet generator showed up until some years later.

The whole subject of the "flame jet generator" is a big dark rabbit hole in its own right. I recall asking Morgan about that early in our correspondence and if memory serves me, he basically said I would not be able to find out a whole lot about it. There is an inference that he walked away from the FJG after developing it for "The Meadville Group" in 1961/62; apparently was willing to let the FJG go because he found something even better, which takes us to this discussion:

viewtopic.php?t=329

...and 'round and 'round she goes.

--PS

[Paul S.]

"Don't rush." Is that like "take all the time you need.... is it ready yet?"

It seems that the " Carolyn Group" or whatever it is called in the forties now , seems to be able to work right alongside certain military and civilian situations without even being noticed. Hiding in plain sight. Its brilliant actually.

Caroline. Caro-LINE, not Caro-lin. Sorry to be such a stickler....

As for brilliant, yeah, quite. My theory is that these secret organizations actually use the internecine workings of the intelligence / nat'l security apparatus to wrap themselves in a "cloak of invisibility." Harry Potter's got nuthin' on these guys...

So if we rush to the demonstration in 1950 what have we missed....How about Mr. Twigsnappers account of Dr. Brown being with him in GERMANY ... And Paul said something in Vegas about Dr. Brown moving his entire family (including his older Mother) to some remote field station in Hawaii. ...about 1947?

Yes, that is the essential chronology. There are a couple of very important nodes we have to get through before we get to Pearl Harbor in 1950.

so Paul ..... the Thursday after the first?

I hope so as much as you do, believe me.

Oh, having some pictures developed soon and will send them to you. My doggie and me !

I could swear I've heard that promise before, too.... huh...huh?

--PS

[Martin Calloway]

I thought that I might volunteer to bring this particular thread to the top of our conciousness now! Dr. Brown is headed for Hawaii I guess. I have heard a little bit of that story from a friend who happen to know Dr. Brown and Josephine. From the sound of it he really went Robinson Crusoe on everybody.

Do you think that was a reflection of his injury, or maybe having a little girl? You know, having a son is great, but man those little girls. They bring up all the protective instincts, my exerience.

So do you think that he went to Hawaii especially for this meeting? Or did the Admirals flock to Pearl because he was there already? And finally will we learn more about Mr. Beau Kitselman? Martin

[twigsnapper]

You all might look again at Beau Kitselmans exact words. Just what was it that he has said?

"B. and I were separated for some years right after the war, but we kept in touch. When I was teaching calculus to a group of Navy men at Barbers Point (which is a part of Pearl Harbor), my students built and operated a 'gravitator' and we all became very enthusiastic. The FAWTUPAC Commander took an interest, B. was sent for, and finally no less a personage than CINCPAC Admiral Radford witnessed a demonstration. B. was well treated by his Navy acquaintances, who were of course immensely proud of him"

B. was sent for (which means that Beau was there first.) Who are these "group of Navy men at Barbers point"? Beau says he was teaching them calculus but they built and operated a "gravitator" so this was not your normal classroom. And probably not your normal Math either. Group of Navy men .... is an interesting choice of words. twigsnapper

[kevin.b]

Has Mr Twigsnapper has gravitated ourselves back to the gravitator, I find this link clear and helpfull in comprehending this device.
http://www.rexresearch.com/gravitor/gravitor.htm
kevin