Pearl Harbor Demonstration

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
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Victoria Steele
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Pearl Harbor Demonstration

Post by Victoria Steele »

New post for this subject!


Soooooo According to Beau Kitselmans little book "Hello Stupid" written in 1962, he was the person who set up the "Pearl Harbor Demonstration" as it has come to be called ?

"B. and I were separated for some years right after the war, but we kept in touch. When I was teaching calculus to a group of Navy men at Barbers Point (which is a part of Pearl Harbor), my students built and operated a 'gravitator' and we all became very enthusiastic. The FAWTUPAC Commander took an interest, B. was sent for, and finally no less a personage than CINCPAC Admiral Radford witnessed a demonstration. B. was well treated by his Navy acquaintances, who were of course immensely proud of him, but the demonstrations were still rather primitive, and no scientists appeared. We all thought the millennium was at hand, but it wasn't. Actually, this sort of thing had been going on for years, for even though B. was more of a shrinking violet than a bold promoter, every now and then his friends would try to get somebody interested."

this is from this site, which is drawn from Andrews website originally
http://www.flyingdisk.com/stupid.htm

Well, I am not sure, on rereading this, that he himself was responsible for setting up the demonstration but he definitely was aware of who was involved. Again Mr. Kittselman mentions "his friends" Who are they? Paul, do you know who he might be referring to? Victoria
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Post by Chris Knight »

There don't appear to be any changes to that copy, but the original copy made from the orginal is at: http://www.qualight.com/stress/hello.htm.

Andrew
grinder
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working unit??????

Post by grinder »

What?

Beau Kitselman says that in Hawaii (what year?) he and his "students? made a "gravitator" that worked? what?

" When I was teaching calculus to a group of Navy men at Barbers Point (which is a part of Pearl Harbor), my students built and operated a 'gravitator' and we all became very enthusiastic. The FAWTUPAC Commander took an interest, B. was sent for, and finally no less a personage than CINCPAC Admiral Radford witnessed a demonstration"


And so, what happened? A working thing to demonstrate the principle and NOTHING HAPPENED? Demonstrated in front of an Admiral and yet in the years that followed NOTHING HAPPENED? how could that have happened? I am registering as much astonishment as Mr. Kitselman did! grinder
grinder
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something strange here

Post by grinder »

This is really an interesting post. But there is something strange happening here folks. Do you see it?

Kitselman himself says of Dr. Brown that

He ran away and joined the Navy as a boot; he has never again, on his own initiative, made any bold attempt to present 'a demonstration of an electro-gravitational force'. Nevertheless, his native scientific ability caused Seaman B. to become Lieutenant B. by the middle of World War 11. He was placed in charge of the Norfolk radar school, worked too long and too hard, collapsed, and was retired from the Navy in the early nineteen-forties. After six months of rest at home, he came to Lockheed-Vega as an engineer, and that is where I met him."

Now, we know from what Paul has written that there was no "nervous breakdown" there was a letter of resignation to the Navy . The cause for the resignation was never spelled out by the Navy.

So, if Paul would post the next chapter ... we would know more about what happened when he reported almost directly from the Navy to Vega. Now thats a real mystery in itself!

But here we have a renowned math expert saying " thats where I met him. Vega in the 1942? So, I know I am jumping the traces here a little but does it make sense that Beau Kitselman might have been one of Townsend Browns "team" or assistants? Dr. Brown would have needed the math and others have said that was not his strong point. And Paul has hinted that through the years Dr. Brown and Beau Kitselman became good friends.

Now in the world that it is obvious Dr. Brown entered, how can you have a friend who is not directly in the same business? What was it that Mr. Twigsnapper said about one hut not knowing what the other hut was doing? Obviously Kitselman and Brown were in the same hut. Am I way off? Somebody set me right! grinder
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Re: working unit??????

Post by Paul S. »

grinder wrote:And so, what happened? A working thing to demonstrate the principle and NOTHING HAPPENED? Demonstrated in front of an Admiral and yet in the years that followed NOTHING HAPPENED? how could that have happened? I am registering as much astonishment as Mr. Kitselman did! grinder
Jeez, you guys are really nipping on my heels here!

You want the answer to that question.... meet me in Las Vegas.

Sorry to do that, but, c'mon, ya gotta leave me a LITTLE thunder!

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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friends

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

I find it interesting that Mr. Kitselman refers to people helping Dr. Brown as "friends" instead of "associates" or "partners"

According to the write up of "Hello Stupid" thats a phrase that he uses alot. And it does lead me to ask myslf, who is he referring to here?

"Finally B's friends began to get under way. They rang doorbells all over the country for him - in the academic world, in the business world, and in Washington. B. gave demonstrations by the dozen"

"Finally, since scientists in America seemed to be in the state of the walking dead, it was arranged for B. to go to England and France and continue his search for a conscious scientist. He had a pleasant trip, received some encouragement, and was 'written up' in international air-and-space magazines." (it was ARRANGED? BY HIS "FRIENDS?")

I find it interesting that the air and space magazines comment was probably a reference to Iner-Avia, which kick started some of Nick Cooks interest.

All in all . VERY INTERESTING! Thanks Andrew for making "Hello Stupid" so available for our research. Elizabeth
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its "after Vegas"

Post by grinder »

OK Paul,

I know that you said it would be "after the first of the year" before you got back on track. So I am sending this sort of like a message slipped under your door. Meant to be waiting for you when you get home.

If you happen to switch back to the story of the Browns going cross country in 1942 ???? ....

Seems to me that with this sort of blazing vision Dr. Brown would still have to translate this somehow to the team that is supposed to be working with him
.
He would have needed engineers probably and mathematicians and other physicists and electrical engineers I would guess. And they all seem to be ending up in California? At a facility that is ALREADY a classified site. Boy thats ..... convenient.

Who was this Beau Kitselman then and what has he been doing all this time? What did he do after the " Pearl Harbor Demonstration".

We were supposed to wait until " After Vegas" but now the topic has gotten even more complicated. Russian spies, a mole in the demonstration? WHAT????? Not that you didn't already have my attention!

and ... you said at Vegas that he took his family (including the grandmother?) to Hawaii to keep them safe from " the bomb" .... but when did the Russians explode their first bomb ...... wasn't that in 1950? If so , is that why Dr. Browns "Group" was showing this technology to the Navy? To stay ahead of the Russians? And then, Oh shit, to discover that there was a mole in the proceedings. Reminds me of Murphys law. Whatever can go wrong ... will go wrong. grinder
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Italian UFO? ? tt brown?

Post by grinder »

Can anybody give me more information on this?

http://missilegate.com/rfz/rocket.htm

especially noting that the date is 1947. Lets see ........ where is Brown?

Its actually funny. The standard question. UFO reports over LA ..... where is Brown? ....... UFO reports over Washington DC .... where is Brown?

Nobody has ever really asked those questions I think. And until Pauls entrance with his careful collection of facts on the man, no one has even known where he was. Just knowing that sometimes is sure helpful.

For those of you who have not read the above yet, I posted it because of this section:

"In analyzing the means by which the KM-2 device flew, it must be noted that gravitational force can be overcome through the use of a strong electrostatic charge as shown by the work of T. Townsend Brown beginning in the 1920s. This is sometimes referred to as the Biefield-Brown Effect. Imagine a torpedo-shaped model with a dielectric center section suspended by a string from the ceiling. If this model were charged with high voltage, one end would become positive and the other end would become negative.Movement would occur toward the positively charged direction if the voltage was sufficient and the charged ends remained separated by the dielectric (5).
This dielectric is an insulating material which can keep positive and negative charges from interacting with each other and so canceling each other out. They are commonly used in capacitors or condensers which have a positive charge on one side while retaining a negative charge on the other. If the charge can be contained by the non-conducting dielectric, a force is exerted in the direction of the positive side with the application of 75,000 to 300,000 volts. One way to conceive of this action is to imagine a gravity hill whose slope increases with the intensity of the ion charge. The craft being powered simply slides down the gravity gradient like a surfboard on a wave (6).

This concept is a new, non-conventional form of flight. It is non-aerodynamic method of flight. All previous conventional flight had either been through the use of lighter than air balloons, winged craft powered by propellers, jets or rockets or the brute force of rockets themselves. Using this method, Brown advocated defeating gravity by generating another form of energy over which gravity could be surfed. It is a form of field propulsion."

I have read those exact words before so where did this information come from originally? This is wierd. Like you meet yourself coming and going.

and then this wierder part: " T. Townsend Brown demonstrated this means of propulsion to the American military during the 1950s. He used a saucer-shaped model tethered only by a high voltage line supplying the charge to the model (7). During that decade Brown built increasingly larger, faster models using this method. Brown found that a saucer or a triangle was the best shape for this type of flying craft. A secret proposal, code-named Winterhaven, was to develop a Mach 3 anti gravity saucer interceptor was put forth to the U.S.Air Force (8). This project was further developed through the1960s but after this all traces of this concept seem to disappear."

YEAH, WELL. GUESS WHAT. PAUL KNOWS. CAN'T WAIT TO GET TO THAT DEMONSTRATION IN 1950 PAUL. grinder
Victoria Steele
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yeah but, don't rush

Post by Victoria Steele »

Currently we have Dr. Brown with his family, moving to California to become involved Paul says, in a super secret project. The location is Vega Aircraft in Burbank but I am getting the impression that though most of Vegas work was classified even THEY didn't really know what Dr. Brown was up to. It seems that the " Carolyn Group" or whatever it is called in the forties now , seems to be able to work right alongside certain military and civilian situations without even being noticed. Hiding in plain sight. Its brilliant actually.

So if we rush to the demonstration in 1950 what have we missed?

Well, for one thing. How about Mr. Twigsnappers account of Dr. Brown being with him in GERMANY. That was certainly just at the end of the war so that is BEFORE 1950.

And Paul said something in Vegas about Dr. Brown moving his entire family (including his older Mother) to some remote field station in Hawaii. What was that all about. And Linda was there so I guess that was about 1947?

And then the article that grinder just posted dated in 1947.

What else happened in 1947. The Air Force came into existance in its own right I think. And the CIA was established. And if you guys havenet seen " The Good Shepherd" yet you really ought to go see it. If for no other reason than to see what a BETTER story is here about Townsend Brown.

I mean .... I really CARE about this kind sweet man and I never met him. So people are going to care about his story.

So Paul ..... the Thursday after the first?

Oh, having some pictures developed soon and will send them to you. My doggie and me !

So, Huh? Huh? Victoria

{Moderators note: discussion of "The Good Shepherd" will continue here:
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Victoria Steele
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separated?

Post by Victoria Steele »

Beau Kitselman makes the statement that he and Brown first met at Vega ( so that had to have been 1942-1943? The he says that they were "separated " for a few years and "happened" to meet up again in 1950 in Hawaii.

So, Paul, has the Kitselman family been able to shed any light on what Mr. Kitselman was doing in those years he was "separated" from Dr. Brown.? If he was a member of the Carolyn Group as I figure Dr. Brown was then wherever he was working was ALSO in their behalf. huh? So maybe it would help knowing what he was doing during this time frame. Victoria
Last edited by Victoria Steele on Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Victoria Steele
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how did that happen?

Post by Victoria Steele »

Paul,

Your message just came in under Elizabeths banner. How did that happen?
Your "friends" playing with your stuffed up head? Victoria
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A Carolyn Group operation?

Post by grinder »

So, can you tell us Mr. Twigsnapper if this was actually a "Carolyn Group" operation"

I find it very intersting that the " flame jet generator" is mentioned in this article. Who is this guy?

http://missilegate.com/rfz/rocket.htm


The KM-2 Rocket

Post-War German science for Generalissimo Francisco Franco. This is from the Denver Post, November 9, 1947, four months after flying saucers were seen all over the USA.




A shred of evidence comes down to us though the years in the form of a newspaper article by Lionel Shapiro in the Denver Post, dated November 9, 1947, and titled "Spies Bid for Franco's Weapons". (Please refer to a copy of that article). It should be noted that this was a few months after the summer of 1947, the first and largest UFO flap in history, which included the Kenneth Arnold sighting and the flying saucer activity of Roswell. It should also be noted that the Denver Post was nor is not a tabloid publication.

In doing research, this newspaper was contacted in an attempt to learn the whereabouts of the author, Lionel Shapiro. Unlike so many newspapers in the United States which have been purchased and merged by conglomerates, this newspaper is still intact and in existence. Unfortunately, no record could be found of Mr.Shapiro in their personnel files although they did maintain files going back that far. Also, no record could be found in their sister publication, The Rocky Mountain News. It was suggested that Mr. Shapiro was "a stringer", that is, a writer who did not work directly for the newspaper and whose work was purchased on apiece by piece basis. His work seems to have been channeled through the North American Newspaper Alliance. More of Mr.Shapiro's history and connections will unfold as the tale progresses.

This article describes two devices. The first is an "electromagnetic rocket", sometimes referred to later as the "KM- 2 rocket" in other literature. The second is a nuclear warhead small enough to be fired by an artillery piece. The nuclear,warhead which is affixed to a cannon projectile, is novel at this time and is interesting since such devices were built and fired shortly thereafter by the United States military. The article's description of the nuclear cannon is correct. This was a German invention and was under development in Germany during the latter stages of the war. A prototype was even built and it carried the German designation of DKM 44 (1). This very cannon was copied by the Americans and became the T-131 which fired a nuclear warhead (2).

The discussion of the nuclear cannon is really beyond the scope of this book but what is important to bear in mind concerning this discussion is that if fifty percent of this article has proven to be accurate. The nuclear cannon was built and it stemmed from a German prototype. Does this not at least raise the possibility that the other fifty percent is accurate also?

Returning to the electromagnetic rocket itself, this device is right on point for the discussion of field propulsion. Some points are ascertained in reading this article. Its description as a "rocket" would lead one to believe it was cylindrical in shape rather than saucer-shaped. It is suggested that this device was responsible for the flying saucer sightings over the USA that previous summer. This speaks for its operational range.It was said to have been tested off Malaga while Franco watched.The device was constructed in the town of Marbella, east of Gibraltar. Finally, it was said to have been of German origin,even naming the German scientists who built it.

Even Spain itself is of some interest here since this country's ruler, Generalissimo Francisco Franco, was openly sympathetic to the Nazis. The Nazis had assisted Franco militarily in the Spanish Civil War during the 1930s and were instrumental in his retention of power. During the final stages of the Second World War and afterward Spain was seen, by the Germans as a safe haven for all those things they wished to keep out of Allied hands, including secret weapons. Many shipments of gold, secret blueprints, specialty steel, machine tools, scientists and high ranking Nazis were sent to Spain (3). Colonel Otto Skorzeny,head of several SS post-war, self-help organizations even set up his headquarters in Madrid (4). Spain served as a home-away- from-home for the SS after the war.

In analyzing the means by which the KM-2 device flew, it must be noted that gravitational force can be overcome through the use of a strong electrostatic charge as shown by the work of T. Townsend Brown beginning in the 1920s. This is sometimes referred to as the Biefield-Brown Effect. Imagine a torpedo-shaped model with a dielectric center section suspended by a string from the ceiling. If this model were charged with high voltage, one end would become positive and the other end would become negative.Movement would occur toward the positively charged direction if the voltage was sufficient and the charged ends remained separated by the dielectric (5).

This dielectric is an insulating material which can keep positive and negative charges from interacting with each other and so canceling each other out. They are commonly used in capacitors or condensers which have a positive charge on one side while retaining a negative charge on the other. If the charge can be contained by the non-conducting dielectric, a force is exerted in the direction of the positive side with the application of 75,000 to 300,000 volts. One way to conceive of this action is to imagine a gravity hill whose slope increases with the intensity of the ion charge. The craft being powered simply slides down the gravity gradient like a surfboard on a wave (6).

This concept is a new, non-conventional form of flight. It is non-aerodynamic method of flight. All previous conventional flight had either been through the use of lighter than air balloons, winged craft powered by propellers, jets or rockets or the brute force of rockets themselves. Using this method, Brown advocated defeating gravity by generating another form of energy over which gravity could be surfed. It is a form of field propulsion.

132

Electric Charge And Propulsion




T.T. Brown found that when strong electric charges are separated by a dielectric, movement occurs towards the positive charge as if gravity were reduced on the positive side or as if the charged object were sliding down a hill.

133

T. Townsend Brown demonstrated this means of propulsion to the American military during the 1950s. He used a saucer-shaped model tethered only by a high voltage line supplying the charge to the model (7). During that decade Brown built increasingly larger, faster models using this method. Brown found that a saucer or a triangle was the best shape for this type of flying craft. A secret proposal, code-named Winterhaven, was to develop a Mach 3 anti gravity saucer interceptor was put forth to the U.S.Air Force (8). This project was further developed through the1960s but after this all traces of this concept seem to disappear.

But where Brown is overlooked is not only did he have a method of electrostatic propulsion but he also had a self-contained method to impart this charge to a flying craft. He invented a flame-jet generator or electrokenetic generator which supplied the necessary high voltage in a light weight, compact manner (9).

The flame-jet generator utilized a jet engine with an electrified needle mounted in the exhaust nozzle to inject negative ions in the jet's exhaust stream. A corresponding but positive charge is automatically built up upon the leading front edge of the craft.As long as there is no leakage through the dielectric or insulating material, in this case through the wings and body ofthe craft, propulsive force is generated in proportion to the strength of the charge attained. Brown estimated that such aflame-jet generator could produce potentials as high as 15 million volts of potential (10).

Ionized air molecules on the leading edge of the craft's surface had other positive benefits. The positive electrical field on the wing's leading edge reduced air friction so that drag caused by air molecules was reduced. This was because individual air molecules on the wing's leading edge were repelled from each other by their like charges (11). Frictional heating was reduced. The sonic boom of such a craft was softened (12). And finally, any returning radar signal was greatly reduced (13).Dr. Paul La Violette has made the argument that all these characteristics are incorporated into the American B-2 bomber,concluding that the B-2 bomber is in reality an anti-gravity aircraft (14).

As Brown repeatedly points out in his Electrokinetic Generator patent, any fluid stream can be substituted for the jet engine's fuel and air (15). This means that hot water vapor or steam itself would be suitable for this purpose.

If T. Townsend Brown had been working on this form of flight since the 1920s, is it not conceivable that others were also?Remember that the KM-2 device is described as an "electromagnetic rocket". If a combination design is considered, one which combines the electrokinetic apparatus with the electrokinetic generator, a picture emerges which would seem to fulfill the description given to the KM-2 "electromagnetic rocket".

134

The real question may be if the flow of this knowledge went from Brown to the Germans or from the Germans to Brown as was the case with so much high technology in the post-war years. T. T.Brown's early collaborator and mentor was a Dr. Paul Biefield a Professor of Physics and Astronomy at Dennison University. Dr.Biefield was a German speaker who was a fellow student of Albert Einstein in Switzerland. Physicists share information across international boundaries. There is no reason for German scientists not to have followed developments in this Biefield-Brown Effect, as it is sometimes called, for the twenty years leading up to World War Two.

Before leaving the KM-2 discussion, perhaps we should return to the reporter who originally broke this story of the German"Electromagnetic Rocket" in 1947, Lionel Shapiro for a closer look at who he really was. It seems this reporter does have a history of breaking or leaking stories through the North American Newspaper Alliance. These stories which, prior to his involvement, could only be classified as "secret". The point in question is a 1946 report, brought to our attention though the extensive research of Dr. Milos Jesensky and Mr. Robert Lesniakiewicz and translated into English for me by Milos Vnenk. This account is of post-wartime intrigue can only be outlined here.

On October 13, 1945, over five months after the hostilities in Europe had ended, the French embassy in Prag notified the Czechoslovakian Foreign Ministry that an SS officer in a French detention camp had given them information that a cache of secret documents existed near Prag. This cache took the form of a tunnel in which 32 boxes of secret documents were hidden and were wired with explosives before being sealed at its opening. The French offered their services and the information given to them by the SS officer in question, Guenther Achenbach. But even after three months of waiting, no response was received by the French from the Czechoslovakian Foreign Ministry (16).

Somehow the Americans got wind of this information. Incredibly,the Americans on February 13, 1946 mounted an armed incursion into Czechoslovakia which was in the Soviet sphere of occupation,retrieved this hoard of information and escaped back into occupied Germany. Naturally the Czechoslovakians were furious and demanded and got an apology from the Americans. They also demanded the return of the German documents stolen from their sovereign territory. The Americans did return documents but probably not those sensitive documents for which the expedition was mounted (17).

Of course the article goes on and then this comes up:


for some reason I can't copy the graphics. please look it up folks, pretty interesting.


Top: T.T. Brown's Top: T.T. Brown's flame-jet generator, capable of supplying millions of volts. Middle: Brown's saucer design which is definitely food for thought. Bottom: Brown's electric rocket incorporating flame-jet generator. The KM-2 rocket must have been a very similar device. "

No shit Sherlock, as Paul likes to say. Is this the same device that disappears from view in the 60s ? Did he demonstrate this to the Navy at Pearl? who are these guys who were "leaking" this kind of information. Its like it has just been lying there waiting for Paul to come along and pick it up. This is giving me goose bumps. grinder
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Post by Chris Knight »

For those interested, a list of Townsend Brown's unclassified patents are here: http://www.qualight.com/general/patents.htm.

The patent number for the Electrokinetic Generator is U.S. 3,022,430 awarded to Whitehall Rand, Inc. (applicant) in February 20, 1962, and a PDF of the original document can be found here: http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?IDX=US3 ... &DB=EPODOC at the European Patent office website.

A pretty apparatus. Has anyone had the pleasure of hearing the sound it makes ?

Andrew
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Server Glitch

Post by Paul S. »

Victoria Steele wrote:Your message just came in under Elizabeths banner. How did that happen?
I think that's what Trickfox calls "a hiccup."

Let me try this again...
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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Ungh

Post by Paul S. »

Well, I'm back from X in TX, but a nasty headcold followed me home and I feel like the proverbial 8 pounds in a 5 pound sack.

I'll try to address all these questions (and all the others) when I start to feel like myself again.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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