SARBACHER/SMITH & "Fusion in Philadelphia?"

[Mark Culpepper]

The topic heading sort of sounds like a legal department. I thought that we might talk about these two gentlemen. I find it really odd that in this mass of secrets held so closely that Dr. Brown would keep any record of his association with Sarbacher if there was something that big going on.

And the second thing that is a puzzle is , If there is such a secret program going on why in the world would Sarbacher tell a Canadian (Smith) that anyway. I would think that he was definitely not on a need to know basis. Wouldn't divulging that sort of information to another country be treason?

Somehow I don't think that Dr. Brown would deal at all with a traitor so what the heck was going on? And there is an interesting time element too. Wasn't that quote about a second more secret than the HBomb comment, wasn't that made in 1950?

Where was Dr. Brown in 1950? Darn, Paul hasn't gotten to that year yet. Huh, we have......... eight more years to go? But at least there is this RUMOR going on about this big parallel project. This more secret project.

And what I have read Wilbur Smith must have taken Sarbacher seriously because he went back to Canada and started some kind of a UFO watch there, but that is confusing to me. Reserving my comments until I have read more. Besides you guys have kept me up too late and YAWN ... the mind might be racing but the body has pulled up lame.

Oh, to those of you who have wondered about Lisa and her horse. Thats why we have been quiet. Blinker has been lame for a few weeks, nothing serious and I am actually pleased at the way that Lisa has shouldered the responsibility for treating and caring for that big horse. You see folks, there is hope in our youngsters, really. Mark C.

[Trickfox]

Marc

I just thought that it would be a good idea to point out that Canadians and Americans enjoy a much closer relationship than anyone could ever have imagined. A great percentage of the original NASA engineers and technicians were recruited directly from the AVRO aviation company when the prime minister (Diefenbaker) folded the company and destroyed all the prototype reactor engines and jets.

I imagine that When Sir Stephenson (the quiet Canadian) decided to work with the United States, the same sort of relationship existed.

We Canadians have a habit of comming into the scene just in time to help our friends in the US. Perhaps that is also the reason why we don't need a passport or visa to travel in the US, and the courtesy extends on our side to US citizens as well.

I suspect at the highest levels of National Security with NORAD and everything, -that the "Treason" statutes are probably waved under the UK/USA agreements.

Just an un-informed opinion here.

Trickfox

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Or words to the effect " Remember the Canadians" has been a phrase that has come across our research more than once, trust me Trickfox. Paul will verify that. He hasn 't gotten to that part of the story but no, I am sure that the Canadian effort plays a big part. Maybe even bigger than most would expect.

Trickfox, how much do you know about the AVRO company, from your side of the border?

And your point about their being a "working relationship" is very well taken. Canada could hardly be called an actual "foreign" government, being our good sister to the north.

But of course FBIs Hoover might have taken issue with that. He was pretty upset with Stephensons operation when it was the BSC, as Paul has pointed out and from everything that I have read.

Though sometimes in my mind I turn the thought over ........ he can't have been that much of a fool to work against an obviously influential operation that would only expand his intelligence capabilities. Who knows? Hoover might have been doing that magic card trick a little too, making a fuss on this end, while working occasionally with the BSC on the other. Power and politics make very odd bedfellows and I understand that Hoover could have qualified on that score.)

Who knows how upset Hoover might have been in the fifties when people were worried about the Russians (and don't forget the "Korean "conflict") It was an unsettled world where world powers were shifting quickly and information was vitally important. And the getting of it was sometimes less important than the keeping of it. For someone to say ........ "There is a project more secret than ........" well .......... thats a pretty outrageous statement.

And if it had been a statement out in the open like that it would have been. But that statement wasn't out in the open. It was never meant to see the light of day. One of those strange quirks of fate that statment was a memo that Smith wrote up and had in his personal files. Most of those files were burned after his death (I think by his wife, following instructions, just as much of the BSC records were burned following Stephensons orders. Not much of anything has actually survived and I don't believe that memo was meant to survive either. Or was it? Strange that it did, anyway.)

You guys look into how all of that happened. I am just saying that Sarbachers name would NEVER have come up if it hadn't been for that slip up. That memo should have been ashes and that statement would never be even mentioned today. Or that Canadian connection either. As we have been told over and over "don't forget the Canadians." Elizabeth

[Chris Knight]

Elizabeth,

I too find it hard to believe the survival of such a memo is coincidence. It is such a pivotal memo - more important than the H-bom project.

So, how do you think it might have survived? It smells of purpose, but was it left as another level of smoke, or was it rescued as a clue for the future researcher to follow? If it were rescued, did the person(s) destroying the other documents have to read through all of the documents before coming across this one, or did it just "jump out" at them? Very odd.

Do you know anything else about the memo?

Andrew

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Andrew,

Timothy Good in his excellent "Above Top Secret The Worldwide UFO cover-up" devotes an entire chapter 8 to the Canadians and the first thing that he mentions on page 183 is that memo. I won't copy all of it because he uses it as the centerpoint of his entire book actually. That there was something going on regarding UFOs and that it was more secret than ANYTHING ELSE AT THE TIME. That lonely little memo, that SOMEHOW was saved. (for future researchers like us? Paul will agree with me when I say that we have seen that happen before.)

Good says in the first paragraph "One of the most important documents on UFOs to be released in Canada is a hitherto top secret memorandum from Wilbert B. Smith, senior radio engineer with the Canadian government Department of Transport at the time and a highly respected scientist who held a masters degree in electrical engineering and several patents. The memo dated 21, November 1950 was sent to the Controller of Telecommunications and recommended that a research project be set up to study the subject."

"We believe that we are on the track of something which may well prove to be the introduction of a new technology" Smith wrote " The existantce of a different technology is borne out by the investigations which are being carried out at the present time in relation to flying saucers. " Smith went on to state that through discreet inquiries made at the Canadian Embassy in Washington he had learned (from Dr. Robert Sarbacher) that

1) The matter is the most highly classified subject in the United States government, rating even higher tht the H-Bomb."........................ well, you guys read his book because once you get into it ............ its hard to put down.

And I understand from all of Pauls research that Dr. Brown MUST HAVE BEEN IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS SOMEWHERE. Tough thing to do now is to find out what his part was.

I know it is frustrating for Paul but I also know that he has far more assets in this search than anyone has ever had. And one of the most important asset that he has (and I know that he appreciates it , he has said so, is this forum. Mainly because the forum is like a living breathing thing in its own way and through us all it brings to itself what is needed. Don't ask me how all that works. I have just been noting it, And appreciating it.) Elizabeth

[Victoria Steele]

I agree with you Elizabeth. Its like the forum is some sort of magic windchime made up of all of us and we all make a certain tone when that invisible wind comes through. Our own particular observations and experiences seem to vibrate in a special way. Yes, I have noticed what has been happening. Its REALLY Wierd.

And this is my latest contribution.

Remember the movie Enigma? I think all of us have run out and gotten it because of the big discussion we had about Bletchely Park. Anyway I thought of the way that the officers would look down on the warboard, which was just a map showing where different ships and planes were, everything in motion and the girls with their long sticks pushing and changing things but all the action was being watched from the guys upstairs. THATS WHAT THIS FEELS LIKE! The only problem is that most of us are down on the stupid flat map and we can't see what else is happening! So how in the world can we get a good view of what Townsend Brown was doing? Hes just like one of those little pieces! Why does he go from point A to point B? How can you possibly know unless you see the whole board? I think others might give up and say its impossible but I don't believe that! We just have to figure out how to see all the pieces in action and then maybe we can figure what was really going on. Making sense or should I just go sit in the corner Paul? ........ Paul? ...... Victoria

[grinder]

I feel like I am getting information from all four directions here in this forum and I am standing in the middle. This is just great. The Nexus!

But from all that has been said I have to say. HOLD ON. You mean that Dr. Brown and this Dr. Sarbacher actually knew each other? You can PROVE that? What sort of evidence did you say you had, some sort of daybook? And when was this? 1962?

And from another corner ( thanks to Mikado and Elizabeth mentioned "Tula" .... who is "Tula"? )you have a huge vacuum chamber in King of Prussia run by General Electric. But wasn't that just for satellites and stuff like that? and then the history that Dr. Brown had with these big chambers is brought up in France. And again I just KNOW that it is all connected but I could never explain that feeling to anybody who has not experienced it. You just know what you know. This is so odd. getting odder every moment.

What did Dr. Sarbacher actually do? Who did he work for? If he is meeting with Dr. Brown then there must be some sort of aa business connection. Dr. Brown moved so much and was so secretive I doubt that it was a socal connection but maybe I am wrong.

This is really cool stuff. Why do I get the feeling that the pace of this story has somehow picked up. Or are we all sharing that same strong coffee? grinder

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Grinder,

Its as if all of those little puzzle pieces that we have been worrying over for the past four years have all gotten their own voice suddenly and they are hopping up and down yelling "Me Next!, Me Next!"

Trickfox mentioned that the files and designs of the AVRO corporation were burned after the place was closed down. Something for me to look at harder Trickfox, thankyou! AVRO of course some time later announced the development of a pitiful hovering type craft which was their explaination of what all the hub bub had been about.(the AVROCAR they called it.) No one really bought the story (and I still don't)

And Victorias comment about the "warboard" with all of the pieces moving at the same time. Thats a valuable insight too. Thankyou Victoria. Thats whats happening now, can you see it. All we have to do now is figure out what the common movement was. (All, she says)

And Mikado, Thankyou for the tour of the Ashlawn area and its proximity to the GE facility. One of the things that we have known about Dr. Brown was that he had a tendency to "live on top of his work". I have the hunch that Ashlawn was chosen because of the GE plant but also because it supplied Linda with a social situation during her last two years of high school. Notice that nearly the minute that she had graduated ( well, by the next fall, the Browns were packed up and gone. Do you know anything at all about the company tht owns the place now? If not, OK, thanks for the name.

So many secrets! So little time! Elizabeth

[grinder]

Was it you Elizabeth who told us the "magic mule " story? I'd put this message with that. It doesn't really belong here, it doesn't really belong there but its going to be said anyway!

I believe at the time we were all talking about Remote Viewing and I am sure the story had something to do with remote viewers and the military. According to the story the "farmers" who had developed and used the mules dug a hole for them when they were finished and then tried to cover them up. They didn't want to admit having the benifit of those magic mules so they were going to get rid of them that way. Only the mules were alive (and magic anyway) so every pile of dirt that was heaped on their backs just got wiggled off and finally there was enough dirt on the floor of the hole, they just walked out.

Suddenly I see that Pauls story about Townsend Brown is alot like those magic mules. Don't you see? its like those magic mules! It can't be covered up. Now all it has to do is BE and all of the disinformation throughout the years will just fall away from the story and it will finally be free.

So right, wrong, finished, unfinished Paul. Your story is meant to be out there. Its meant TO BE.

Thats what I have been doing for the first real time in my life, thinking. grinder

[Paul S.]

This discussion is very interesting, perhaps central.

Like Jack Benny: "I'm thinking..."

Making sense or should I just go sit in the corner Paul? ........ Paul? ......

You can go sit in the corner if you want, Victoria, but don't expect to be there by yourself for long... the rest of us will be there with you shortly. May as well stay here.

--PS

[Paul S.]

But from all that has been said I have to say. HOLD ON. You mean that Dr. Brown and this Dr. Sarbacher actually knew each other? You can PROVE that? What sort of evidence did you say you had, some sort of daybook? And when was this? 1962?

Yes, folks, for once, there is actual EVIDENCE of what we're talking about. Sarbacher's name appears at least once in this 1962 "Daily Guide" that I have that Dr. B. kept. We call it the "Day Book."

An entry on June 15, 1962, at 11:30 AM says simply "Visit Sarbacher."

I believe the visit was in Washington, DC, as an entry at the end of the previous day says "Return to Wash" followed by "O/N Alexandria," which I suspect means "OverNight."

I seem to recall that there were other entries that mentioned "Sarbacher" but I'll have to thumb through the thing again to see for sure.

In any event, let the heavens rejoice. Evidence. Proof.

What did Dr. Sarbacher actually do? Who did he work for?

Whenever I've heard Sarbacher's name, the fields I've heard associated with it are "high frequency communications" and "missile guidance."

Now, that and 25c....

--PS

[Paul S.]

you have a huge vacuum chamber in King of Prussia run by General Electric. But wasn't that just for satellites and stuff like that?

Oh yeah, satellites. We haven't even talked about satellites.

I think they come right after "submarines" in the alphabet soup, right?

And you all wonder why my head explodes.

-PS

[Trickfox]

Dear lord
don't let your head explode
It hurts like hell!!
trickfox

[Mark Culpepper]

I sometimes told my kids that it was good in class to "let yourself go" mentally, "brainstorm" without worrying about this or that rule. Thats usually the way creative solutions to problems happen.

I see you Paul trying so diligently to find one piece after the other and make sure that those pieces fit to everyones satisfaction. But in a way you end up with your nose on the puzzled sort of. And this is TOO BIG a puzzle I think for that kind of treatment.

For example. I think that we can all agree that Townsend Brown had something to do with radar or radar detection and its been hinted about submarines more than once. And we already know that he was working with some of the early developers of communications and intelligence networks.( Loosening the bonds of having to prove every little step, fly with me.

Submarines, no good without communications, also very vunerable to being found so how exactly did they communicate with each other? And how did they keep from being found? I have been reading about these aircraft radar systems. They were mainly aimed at searching for and distroying subs. The FBI calls him a top dog in "radar detection", he declares he is gay, his friend says later he "had a mental breakdown' but nevertheless Townsend Brown ends up at Vega. Aircraft. two weeks later. Doing what? Do we know at all?

That "propulsion system without any moving parts looms up there .... but all I can remember is that line from red October. Early Townsend Brown stuff, perfect for submarines. So what is he doing working with aircraft, unless he is trying maybe to protect his own subs?

I know now that they have a whole fleet of satellites at their disposal but I don't remember when all that started. I could fairly well guess that GE would have been in the middle of it. So now here comes Dr. Brown doing , I don't know what he was doing. He seemed to have his "private personal project" with the "radiation" and then he had stuff like the fan precipitator and loudspeaker. Stuff he called ashtray products. And now he is meeting this Dr. Sarbacher in 1962. Overnight in Alexandria you said so that means they were probably in the Washington area. Missile guidence and high frequency expert. Gee thats beginning to sound like satellite communications to me. And THAT boy would have REALLY been classified in 1962.

OK and then freewheeling over into the REALLY secret stuff like SPY SATELLITES. Who was responsible for putting them up? I'll bet again that the facility in King of Prussia had something to do with it?

But wait folks, as I come crashing back down. We are assuming (Victorias favorite word) that this Sarbacher was THE Sarbacher. Maybe he was a rug merchant, maybe they were planning a round of tennis. Is there any other evidence that would link them together? I would bet on it being the same man, but I am just saying what someone else might say. Wheres your backup source? Is this what your Mr. Twigsnapper has said too. He says it, I'm good to go. Mark C

[Paul S.]

Excellent job of free-associating, Mark...

But wait folks, as I come crashing back down. We are assuming (Victorias favorite word)

Still? You think...??

Is there any other evidence that would link them together? .... Wheres your backup source? Is this what your Mr. Twigsnapper has said too. He says it, I'm good to go. [/quote]

Yes, there has been quite a bit of background discussion about "Sarbacher," and so I'm quite certain that the "Sarbacher" who shows up in the '62 day-book is the "Sarbacher" who talked to Wilbert Smith (not "Wibur, btw).

This Sarbacher character figures in one or two other interesting anecdotes. I'll get to them one of these days.

So, how're we doing, Teach?

--PS