Chapter 43 - For The Good Of The Service

Use this section for any discussion specifically related to the chapters posted online of the unfolding biography, "Defying Gravity: The Parallel Universe of T. Townsend Brown
twigsnapper
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48 states

Post by twigsnapper »

You are absolutely correct regarding the animosity between Hoover and Stephenson. The BSC was not supposed to hire Americans at all. Of course, that was an impossible restriction and Stephenson knew that right off. Dig around some, (or someone out there jump in and verify this for Paul), . The Americans "hired" carried the numbers 48 in their identification code ..... for forty eight states. There were actually many hundreds of them. Josephine Beale Brown was one of the best. Twigsnapper
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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but after the war?

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

I have a question for you Paul that maybe others can help out with.

I understand, thanks to Mr. Twigsnapper, that there was absolutely no love lost between Mr. Hoover and Mr. Stephenson. But the FBI reports are dated 1953 and hadn't Mr. Stephenson closed his BSC operations by then?

So we would not even be dealing then with an organization that had a name or an office .... Where did Mr. Stephenson go after the end of the war? What was he doing then? I know that the CIA was drawn up after the old OSS which it is generally agreed Mr. Stephenson had much to do with.

A man like that doesn't just pack his bags and head for some remote island. Or if he does, he has more on his plate than just getting a tan. Just my opinion here.

Thankyou for that 48 message Mr. Twigsnapper. I will try to follow up on that. And , why not ask it ..... Did Mr. Kitselman have a 48 number then too? And if he did, could he also have been a leak in the works? Seems to me that much information and disinformation came from Dr. Browns best friend. What else might he have been doing to have the FBI take a serious look in his direction? Elizabeth
Mark Culpepper
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excellent trail

Post by Mark Culpepper »

It occurs to me that its an excellent idea to get a good idea of what that Mr. Stephenson was doing, or at least what others thought he was doing.

I read somewhere that Hoover was quite relieved when the BSA closed down but I don't remember the date. In any case , if you look at the span of time from that moment (lets just say 45?) until he "happened" to be meeting Dr. Brown and the young Morgan in 1965. Thats just twenty years.

You have to be a youngster to think that twenty years is a long time! To me its like yesterday! A blink of an eye.

So here we have "Mr X" recruiting someone new for his "organization". I am connecting dots here and maybe I am again jumping to conclusions, but why not? Does not it make some sort of rational sense that the old BSA, its old job finished, just went into another mode? After all by then everyone was worried about the cold war with the Russians, so they talk to a red headed kid that spoke fluent Russian and had potential for the future. Someone said that this organization was "multigenerational". Is this how it works? Mark C.
Paul S.
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1943 AND 1953

Post by Paul S. »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:I understand, thanks to Mr. Twigsnapper, that there was absolutely no love lost between Mr. Hoover and Mr. Stephenson. But the FBI reports are dated 1953 and hadn't Mr. Stephenson closed his BSC operations by then?h
That's true, but the FBI synopsis that I was citing is dated 1943, not 1953. The G-men investigated Brown on some suspicion of fraud in the 1950s -- that must be the report that you're thinking of here.

But it appears that our man first came to the Feds attention in the 1940s, and while the evidence is all circumstantial (what else is new?), it seems reasonable to presume that his association with Stephenson could be a the root of that inquiry.

As Mr. Twigsnapper has reinforced, there was no love lost between Hoover and Stephenson, so surely any American citizen believed be in league with Stephenson would have drawn some suspicions.

'Zat answer your question, Elizabeth?

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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some questions answered

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Yes, you answered some. Thanks. Elizabeth
Victoria Steele
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maybe some help?

Post by Victoria Steele »

Paul probably has all of this but gee, this is fun.

Try this guys http://www.laughtergenealogy.com/bin/hi ... ltra1.html
and in that rather long article is this and I thought of your questions Mark and Linda.
"RECOGNITION

In 1945 Intrepid appeared before King George and was knighted, thus becoming SIR WILLIAM STEPHENSON. The following year President Harry Truman awarded Intrepid the Presidential Medal for Merit, the first non-American to receive the highest US honor for a civilian. Stephenson was the only one associated with ULTRA who was so honored!

After the war, Sir William and Lady Mary moved to the Caribbean, settling first in Jamaica. Working with the Governor, Stephenson started a regional cement industry and spearheaded world-wide investments to boost the economies of underdeveloped countries. He then retired to Bermuda with Lady Mary.

Writer Tim Lawson wrote a biography on Stephenson titled The Quiet Canadian and visited with him and Lady Mary on Bermuda in 1985. Said Lawson,

He showed me how an individual could make a difference. Even then, at the age of 89, he was brilliant. At any given moment he could tell you how many troops the Cubans had sent the previous week to Angola or how many tanks the Soviets had sent to Nicaragua, because his global intelligence system was still fully operational. Congressmen and Senators were constantly calling for advice.

Intrepid died on Bermuda in 1989 at the age of 93."

There you have one persons account of what else SIR William Stephenson was doing. Just gets more and more fascinating!

Paul your book is going to turn into a watershed of information for other writers. So much is coming to the surface. All we have to do (ha ha ha ) is collectively connect the dots! Victoria
grinder
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Thankyou Victoria

Post by grinder »

Thank you for pointing those words out, Of course there are many who have stepped up and tried to discredit Tim Lawsons words but still , considering the other outside agendas out there you just have to at some point decide who you are going to believe regarding stuff like this. And look what he said from his personal visit with the man . Look again

He showed me how an individual could make a difference. Even then, at the age of 89, he was brilliant. At any given moment he could tell you how many troops the Cubans had sent the previous week to Angola or how many tanks the Soviets had sent to Nicaragua, BECAUSE HIS GLOBAL INTELLIGENCE SYSTEM WAS STILL FULLY OPERATIONAL. Congressmen and Senators were constantly calling for advice


GEE. THE PLOT THICKENS.

Great words by the way Paul, WANT MORE! grinder
Paul S.
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Tim Lawson / Timberholme

Post by Paul S. »

Victoria Steele wrote:Writer Tim Lawson wrote a biography on Stephenson titled The Quiet Canadian and visited with him and Lady Mary on Bermuda in 1985.
Well, almost-n-sorta...

"The Quiet Canadian" was the name of a bio of Stephenson written by H. Montgomery Hyde and published Britain in 1962.

Tim Lawson is a singer/songwriter from Bristish Columbia. In that capacity, he produced and released a CD called "The Quiet Canadian." The title track is an ode to Sir William and Lady Mary.

Lawson also operates a publishing company, Timberholme Books, which published "The True Intrepid: Sir William Stephenson and the Unknown Agents" by Bill MacDonald in 1998.

I have used all of these books as references, and think rather highly of Mr. Lawson's CD as well.

http://www.timberholme.com/

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
twigsnapper
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back to 1940

Post by twigsnapper »

So, what was it again that you figured that Townsend Brown was doing in 1940?

In July of that year several men met to form what would eventually be called Division 14 of the Defense Research Committee. ( otherwise known as the Radar Division) The most luminary of the lot was Alfred Loomis, whose name you might have come across before. Hugh Willis, Ralph Bowen .... E.L. Bowles also. You might take a moment to look in that direction . And Victoria, you might have fun with that too? Twigsnapper
LongboardLOVELY
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Re: back to 1940

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

twigsnapper wrote:So, what was it again that you figured that Townsend Brown was doing in 1940?

In July of that year several men met to form what would eventually be called Division 14 of the Defense Research Committee. ( otherwise known as the Radar Division) The most luminary of the lot was Alfred Loomis, whose name you might have come across before. Hugh Willis, Ralph Bowen .... E.L. Bowles also. You might take a moment to look in that direction . And Victoria, you might have fun with that too? Twigsnapper
I googled that Division 14 because I recall reading something a few months back about that when "radar" became a topic of interest in this circle of friends.

This is an excerpt from the archives.gov website. Mark, you may be familiar with the site. It has enumerable references to just about everything you could ever want. Here's what I found in the records of the OSRD from 1939-1950

Ten references to Radar, 3 or 4 references to Division 14. Here are a few of them.

1] 227.10.1 Records of the Radiation Laboratory (RL), Massachusetts
Institute of Technology (MIT)

2] 227.2.2 Records of support units
Textual Records: Records of the Office of the Historian, consisting of subject files, 1943-46; issuances of various OSRD units, 1943-46; and an unpublished manuscript, "Radar in World War II," by Henry Guerlac, 1947. Case files of the Committee on OSRD Publications, 1944-47.

3] 227.7.1 General records
Textual Records: Subject-numeric correspondence, 1940-46. Subject-numeric policy and procedure files, 1941-46. Correspondence concerning the receipt and distribution of British reports, 1941-45. Correspondence, requisitions, and receipts relating to radar equipment sent to the United Kingdom under the lend-lease program, 1942-45. Records, and microfilm copy of records, relating to a commercial radar exchange agreement, 1942-45 (12 rolls). Field office correspondence, 1944-45.

Somewhere on that page there was also a patent record, but I can't find it now.

I'm going to try to dig up that Guerlac figure, see if there's anything to that name.

Oh, and you were right, Paul, Tuxedo Park is an interesting read!

Linda
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
twigsnapper
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and tea at four

Post by twigsnapper »

Oh and well done longboardLOVELY. So nice to hear from you.

My best regards.

Strange notes survive the weeding process.

Notations that no one else would consider important. Silly things like "Earl Grey" at four. (Everything stopped for that, by the way) Look for that. And the company of a man Dr. Brown only mentioned to his daughter once as " I had a friend once, A Cossack who developed a powder ...... that we sold to the Chinese to use against the Japanese." Paul can confirm that quote.

I thought that you might personally find that information fun. Twigsnapper
Last edited by twigsnapper on Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paul S.
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Re: and tea at four

Post by Paul S. »

twigsnapper wrote:" I had a friend once, A Cossack who developed a powder ...... that we sold to the Chinese to use against the Japanese."
Kistiakowski

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
twigsnapper
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ah, the Navy

Post by twigsnapper »

Ah! Good morning Paul!

You might try this shoe on for size.

The SCR602 Type 8.

Navy name AN/TPS3

I'll translate a little

T: transportable P: radar S: Search

lightweight units airborne.

Ah, the hunt gathers. (We have one fox that has already found his kitten so all are safe in that direction). All other fox information out there I would say with the sound of the early horn ......... Gone Away, Gone away! Twigsnapper
grinder
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students of history

Post by grinder »

Damned Paul. Your book is going to turn us all into students of history as it has been written. With an eye for that which has not!

LindaB. You experience on mines was just like me. I just read what Mr. Twigsnapper wrote and looked up the book I have been reading with sort of an amazement. ( The War, A concise History 1939-1945 by Louis L. Snyder) and just look people! what he says on page138. Hey Paul, do I get honorable mention as a researcher? Does it count when you just "stumble upon" information. But then, was this an accident. This is spooky ground here!

"UNTIL JUNE 1942 German Uboat commanders regarded it as safe to surface during the night to recharge batteries or attack a convoy, But now they were mystified when Allied aircraft HAD NO DIFFICULTY in spotting them, playing searchlights on them and then attacking them. In July a dozen U-boats were sunk, in August another 15, most by sudden air attacks. The Germans soon established that the attacking planes were emitting pulses while searching for their targets. Obviously they were using radar but how in the world did they find room on the planes for those huge sets and screen arerials?

What did you say again Mr. Twigsnapper. I am suddenly all ears! grinder
LongboardLOVELY
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Re: and tea at four

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

Paul S. wrote:
twigsnapper wrote:" I had a friend once, A Cossack who developed a powder ...... that we sold to the Chinese to use against the Japanese."
Kistiakowski

--PS
Hm

Kristiakowski - the russian mentioned in Tuxedo Park a few times; friend of Loomis.

Right?

LB
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
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