Chapter 42 - Your First Lesson

[Mikado14]

New guy here. Have been reading quite a bit in the forums, all 42 chapters sans one (39?). Never ever heard of Thomas Townsend Brown until about 10 years ago. I was sitting here one day about two weeks ago and just for the halibut, I did a Google on his name and found this site.

Well, I more than likely will ruffle a few feathers here but I will give a few empirical views of what I have seen.

As to the submarines using a silent drive, I can remember reading about this almost twenty years ago and it was referred to as a magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) drive. I believe that one of the Japanese companys built a ship maybe 15 or more years ago using this type of drive. If memory serves me correctly, it was not too terribly efficient and did not have a very high speed. Further, I believe that the US Navy and the Royal Navy have subs with this type of drive as an auxilliary and is used for stealth mode. However, again, the speed is slower. I might be wrong but I believe the gist is close, the old memory thing. More than likely, Clancy derived his "caterpillar drive" from a Popular Science article on the subject of the MHD. Again, just speculation for back in the eighties with the cold war and Reagan, stealth in anything, was the ticket, and this was supposed to revolutionize underwater warfare. In my humble opinion, I would just look for the magnetic anamolies created by the drive to detect, but then, I guess they could use mu metal (just a joke)to shield.

I do see a little bit of the conspiracy thing going on here. Are there phantoms, zephyrs and things that go boom in the night with no explanation? Yes, more than likely, but that is what makes life interesting, the unknown, the search for answers. All my life from my grandfather up to my professors and instructors, all tried to instill an inquisitiveness of things I didn't understand, to attempt to understand them, and to not jump to conclusions. I was always thankful to have had individuals in my life that drove me to go beyond and to listen to my gut. To have had the Internet 30 years ago. My mind races at the tool this generation has. They just have to shift between what the fly left and the pepper.

Has anyone here ever experienced any clandestine involvement or governmental influence in their life based upon actions or knowledge they have, either done or hold? More than likely not, with the exception of Mr. Twigsnapper. ( as a side note, a twigsnapper when I was in the Army was the guy that gave your position away to the VC, just had to throw that in from the previous posts). "they" (I intentionally lower case the word) can reach into areas you can't dream. For all intents and purpose, they can make your life........difficult.

As to "Silent Service", my father was an old Navy man and everytime that movie came on, his question would be, "You know where they got that saying?", "yeah Pop, you told me the last time we saw this", "well then, don't forget!" Believe me, it had nothing to do with espionage but with "those who serve silently beneath the waves". Are they used for clandestine manuevers? Yeah, you bet. However, the term is not an indication of espionage.

Before I close here let's look at it this way. When you think of Aviation, Orville and Wilbur come to mind. Did they invent the aeileron? Nope. I wonder if the average person does, but it sure made the control much better than wing warping (hint: you use a device invented by this person almost everyday if not everyday). The same may be said of T.T.Brown. The orginator, the developer. Do you really believe that he devolped the systems in use in the Seawolf class of sub or did he develop the principle?

I believe in giving credit where credit is due and this man deserves a lot. If not for him, there certainly would be a few things that would not be in use or thought of. Most scientist have a constipated way of looking at things. Remember 150 years ago, "You can never have a train move faster than 35 mph for a vacuum would be created and all would suffocate". Hmmm, a little bit of that constipated thinking. Conclusions based upon belief and not the scientific method. It takes someone with that childlike inquisitiveness and the gleam in the eye to dare to dream irregardless of academia's beliefs or regiments, that is how things are developed and discovered.

This has only been the ramblings of a new observer and are my humble opinions. If I have offended anyone......forgive me, I am not trying to, as I said, just throwing my opinion in.

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Welcome Mikado to our discussion!

Never worry about offending anyone on this forum!

Most of us are here to explore the possibilities involved and I think that we all know that we have to be free to go wherever that might take us mentally. We try not to be offensive, but at the same time its important for us all to speak our minds! So welcome! Elizabeth here.

You have made some good points about the old MHD drive systems. And you are probably right on target with some of your conclusions.

I have the nagging feeling however, that there might be more to the story than that which is represented by the articles that have bubbled to public
awareness.

Yes, I believe that you were right. They tried MHD , tied it to stealth propulsion, and perhaps found it wasn't very effective BUT does that mean that MHD was the end of it? Those storys now may just be serving as a way of dismissing rumors of a another propulsion system.

Are you familiar with EHD? The initials stand for "Electrohydrodynamics." Check with Paul on this but I believe that word was coined by Dr. Brown himself in one of his early patents. )

So do you see my point here? It is sometimes very easy to dismiss something when you are only given partial information. We may not even think that we are drawing the wrong conclusions. They are the RIGHT conclusions given the amount of information available to us ..... but .... this is not the way Townsend Browns world really worked .... there might indeed be other explanations.

I am hoping that considered opinions like your last post will be tossed back and forth on this forum . Maybe if we are lucky we will be able to add a goodly amount of that childlike enthusiasm for the subject. Perhaps then all of us will be able to sense where the truth is.

Your participation is most welcomed! Elizabeth

[Mark Culpepper]

Ah! There is life here on the forum after all! I thought that we were all taking a vacation! I don't know about you folks but in my neck of the woods school started quite awhile ago!

Welcome Mikado and hello again Elizabeth. You guys have opened up a whole new can of worms for me.

Whats this about EHD Elizabeth? I KNOW that you know what you are talking about but when I looked up "Electrohydrodynamics" first off it mentioned that it was basically an electrostatic effect and would NOT work in a vaccuum or in liquid, so how could it be applied in any way at all to sub propulsion?

Then suddenly I ran into another site that was very specific that it DID in fact work in oil and in a vacuum and there were references to Dr. Browns other work. So now I am completely confused and hoping that someone can give me some pointer to see through the flyshit as Mikado said.

Andrew? Are you still on vacation too? Some technical clarity here. Or another round Elizabeth please. Which is it? Does it work in space/oceans or not? Help!

And Mikado, you asked "Has anyone here ever experienced any clandestine involvement or governmental influence on their lives?" other than Mr. Twigsnapper of course. Your assumption was "Probably not"

Maybe because she keeps such a low profile in all of this you might not think of Linda Brown, but I would submit that Townsend Browns daughter is nearly a raging expert in clandestine involvement in a personal life.

As you read more of the history of this forum exchange you will notice that Paul is very careful to satisfy her wish for privacy. Even so, hers is a compelling story which is unfolding with each chapter written. So thats ONE answer to your question. Just one person. And I suspect as you get to know others in this forum you might discover that there are other sons and daughters of people who have been in that kind of world and speaking for myself, we have all been affected.

It was through this forum and through Mr. Twigsnappers help that I learned much about my Dads involvement in the OSS during WWII, so I would like to throw myself in that category too. Lindas story and mine ran an interesting set of similarities. We moved nearly constantly when we were kids. We were constantly the new kids in class though I believe I was out moved by Linda. she went to 48 different schools. Can you even imagine that? I did half of that and thought I was a nomad. We both lived long periods without having our Dads company and when he came home we learned not to ask where he had been or when he would be going away again. Linda was maybe luckier than I was because my parents divorced when I was a kid and her parents apparently stayed together. (though as of the last chapter they apparently divorced and Paul hasn't told us yet when they remarried. Josephine and Townsend DID remarry Paul, didn't they? ah, I guess I have to wait for him to get back off of vacation.)

Its good to have company in the wait. Sorry I got a little longwinded. Mark C.

[Chris Knight]

Mark,

Sure, go to http://www.soteria.com/hydro/ where I have an EHD document page.

Decent definitions (courtesy of Wikpedia) are:

Magnetohydrodynamics:

Magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) (magnetofluiddynamics or hydromagnetics) is the academic discipline which studies the dynamics of electrically conducting fluids. Examples of such fluids include plasmas, liquid metals, and salt water. The word magnetohydrodynamics (MHD) is derived from magneto- meaning magnetic field, and hydro- meaning fluid, and -dynamics meaning movement. The field of MHD was initiated by Hannes Alfvén[1], for which he received the Nobel Prize in 1970.

The set of equations which describe MHD are a combination of the Navier-Stokes equations of fluid dynamics and Maxwell's equations of electromagnetism. These differential equations have to be solved simultaneously. This is too complex or impossible to do symbolically in most cases, but there are important classes of analytical solutions (for example, the Solov'ev equilibria). For real-world problems in complex geometries, numeric solutions are found using computers. Because MHD is a fluid theory, it cannot treat kinetic phenomena, i.e., those in which the existence of discrete particles, or of a non-thermal distribution of their velocities, is important.

And electrohydrodynamics:

Electrohydrodynamics (EHD), also known as electro-fluid-dynamics (EFD) or electrokinetics, is the study of the dynamics of electrically conducting fluid. It is the study of the motions of ionised particles or molecules and their interactions with electric fields and the surrounding fluid. The term may be considered to be synonymous with the rather elaborate electrostrictive hydrodynamics. EHD covers Electrophoresis, dielectrophoresis, electro-osmosis, and electrorotation. In general, the phenomena relate to the direct conversion of electrical energy into kinetic energy, and vice versa.

In the first instance, shaped electrostatic fields create hydrostatic pressure (or motion) in dielectric media. When such media are fluids, a flow is produced. If the dielectric is a vacuum or a solid, no flow is produced. Such flow can be directed against the electrodes, generally to move the electrodes. In such case, the moving structure acts as an electric motor. Practical fields of interest of EHD are the common air ioniser, Electrohydrodynamic thrusters and EHD cooling systems.

In the second instance, the converse takes place. A powered flow of medium within a shaped electrostatic field adds energy to the system which is picked up as a potential difference by electrodes. In such case, the structure acts as an electrical generator.

Andrew

[Victoria Steele]

OK. Thankyou Andrew. There are those out there who are nodding and appreciating everything that you so carefully laid out there. But me?

I love ya to death! But what the heck did you just say? If I ever got you and Trickfox together in the same damned room I might as well just walk a plank somewhere!

So boiled down to something I can understand ..... EHD would concievably then move a sub? Huh? Or the theory and the fact meets somewhere? huh? Take pity on me! Victoria

[Chris Knight]

Victoria,

Well, if it's any consolation, Trickfox leaves me in the dust as well.

For a simple analogy, magnetohydrodynamics is the interaction between an electrically conducting fluid medium (air, water, oil, dust, etc.) and a shaped magnetic field, while electrohydrodynamics is the interaction between the fluid medium and a shaped electrical field.

Andrew

[Mikado14]

From what has been posted and what I understand, or thought I understood about this topic is that it will not work if the fluid medium is water. Electrolysis more than likely would take place. Ergo, a submarine drive?

Please correct me,,,,anyone?

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Mikado,

Try looking at Chapter 27 again and note that the date of most of that material drawn from is 1932 or so. Paul has set out an interesting outline of the work that Townsend Brown had accomplished and was proposing at the time. He covers the material far better than I could. https://www.ttbrown.com/defying_gravity ... ystem.html

Paul ends the chapter by writing " At last, somebody was taking Townsend Brown seriously." Perhaps someone in the Navy took him VERY seriously. Its a thought to consider.

Elizabeth

[Chris Knight]

That was a simple analogy, but:

Yes, electrolysis of water (separation into H2 and O2) requires a dissolved electrolyte, such as NaCl and other ions (seawater) in order to observe an effect. Pure water isn't all that great of a conductor, and you need an electric current.

However, electrohydrodynamics is partially dependent on the dielectric characteristics (a function of the dipole moment) of a material. Water (pure H20) is a fairly decent dielectric in itself (Ke=80.4), although it tends to dissolve its container, creating ions, which increases its conductivity, leading to a lowered breakdown voltage and arcing. Then you have a current, and can have electrolysis. You don't see it used much as a dielectric.

Air has a dielectric constant just above 1 (vacuum has a Ke=1), and many other materials have much higher Ke's. Oil is typically used as a transformer dielectric insulator because it can have a high breakdown voltage as well as a reasonable Ke. In any case, electrohydrodynamics will work on any dielectric material.

In EHD, the effect is lessened, if not eliminated once the breakdown voltage is exceeded and a significant current is created. It is the stresses of imbalance, or asymmetric fields as they are called, that makes EHD possible.

Interestingly enough, though, Brown found that in some cases, the flow of current WAS necessary. For example, his oil pump required a leaky, dielectric oil in order to show the pumping effect. I'll plead the 5th there, but I do know that some de minimis electrical current was required in other apparatuses - if only to offset internal heat losses and external corona losses.

Hope that clarifies a bit.

Andrew

[Mikado14]

Thanks for the quick reply Chris or Andrew but I believe I need a little clarification again, it's that age thing going on (that's a joke...or then again, maybe not).

Water is broken down in electrolysis, I thought the result was H2 + 1/2 O2 (1 mole of Hydrogen and 1/2 mole of Oxygen), otherwise there is an extra oxygen. Where is this coming from?

When it comes to dielectric constants, you mentioned water. I thought the constant of water was dependent upon temperature as well as quite a few other materials. Also, I thought K was for constant, is the sub e different due to application?

I don't mean to be picayune but the devil is in the details and I wish to understand.

[Chris Knight]

Mikado,

No worries, it's important that someone questions my answers, so I don't make mistakes. I tend to simplify, so I apologize. If you had one molecule of H2, if would break down into one (1) H2 molecule and one (1) 1 O atom. However, the (balanced) stochiometric formula is:

2H2O(l) --> 2H2(g) + O2(g)

since single-atom gases tend to pair up due to their valence electrons. The monatomic (inert) gases (He, Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe, and Rn) have a zero valence charge, so don't feel the need to pair up together.

As far as the dilectric constant goes; from Wikpedia:

"The relative dielectric constant of a material under given conditions is a measure of the extent to which it concentrates electrostatic lines of flux. It is the ratio of the amount of stored electrical energy when a potential is applied, relative to the permittivity of a vacuum. It is also called relative permittivity."

The dielectric constant goes is a function of the temperature, humidity, and several other variables. The notation for dielectric constant is k or K, and the notation for relative permittivity is in my mind, looks like a small "e," so it is absolutely incorrect to write Ke - it's just the way I have written it over the years in my notes. I'll try to be more succint in the future.



Andrew

[Trickfox]

Gee

I was just left in the dust By Chris Knight!!!!!

Please don't underestimate your knowledge Andrew. I hated chemistry and I may know a lot about information theory but I assure you, YOU are the most knowledgeable person on Electrohydrodynamics here!!

I have some understanding of what you have just explained, however I would certainly trust your opinion over mine in this case.

It is true that we should be working together however and I think this may still be possible eventually.

Nice to see the forum waking up again, I wonder if anybody else here was invited to join the LIGHT BALL forum a few days ago.


Trickfox

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

I love this conversation and will not muddy it with my lack of knowledge in the sciences! I just wanted to point one thing out.

There is room enough in the story of Townsend Brown for everybody.

I believe that the scientific discussions that his work will generate will go on for a very long time and will be fruitful and exciting for those with the skill and the outlook to appreciate them.

But thats not ALL that is invested in this story. There are the other stories, well insulated from the formulas and the theories of the science, many stories, each one of them different and each one of them with subjects which have generated an active following.

I am thinking of Victoria as an example. (hello Victoria). She has made no bones at all, from the very first, that she is a romantic at heart and what most interests her in the story of Townsend Brown is the interaction between the two couples highlighted in the story. Dr. Brown and his wife and Linda and the fellow Victoria has taken to calling "My man Morgan".
(she admitted that she likes colorful, dangerous characters and I guess that he fit the bill.)

And Mark C. has an interest in history and has tailored his questions to match that. I know that I have learned alot about various special services operations just trying to keep up with the discussions generated.

Others who have joined us have their own particular slant of questions. Our friend from Canada Trickfox knows a WHOLE LOT about complicated informational theories which leave some of us scratching our heads about the little pea dropping in the ocean and all the possibilities that science says is available in all the realms .... and then Neenie comes along and confounds all of our deep thoughts with the guestion ...."But what if a fish eats it?. Back to the drawing boards folks!

Neenie and Pat contributed personal asides about "Doc" and Mrs Brown. How they were such a great team together and how much Dr. Brown liked his peanut butter .....

Mr. Twigsnapper has stepped forward with memories of times that he spent moments with Dr. Brown. One senses that he is not telling us everything but what he has managed to tell us would be worth a book in itself. I think particularly of his story of collapsing on his knees in the mud of Germany after finding the body of a little girl left behind. I am still wondering what it was that Dr. Brown said to the man that made such a difference in his life.


I am just mentioning this to remind all of us that this is a multifaceted story. You don't have to be a scientist to appreciate what this man did. You don't even have to understand at all the importance of his work in the lab to appreciate the human drama that surrounded him for his entire life.

I say this because I know that there might be others out there who are thinking ......" Well, gee .... I don't even come close to understanding all this physics or chemistry .... so how could I possibly be able to add to the discussion? "

I just wanted to say to you. " Don't worry. Just hang in there with us! Somewhere along the line there will be some element of this story that will reach out and touch a thread of interest that you carry with you.
And when that happens, please, please .... remember that you are invited to join this discussion, because each thought generated in that way is extremely important to the whole.

OK..... enough said. And other than saying "HUH?" I can't really ad much more to the above scientific discussion. (other than to say that I am pleased that it is going on) and to mention that I am just happy those scientific gentlemen (and ladies) are out there! Elizabeth

[Mikado14]

Ok Chris Andrew, so far, fair enough, now back to the original discussion a few posts past.

Somehow, and I am not sure where, I asked that if EHD, as a submarine drive in sea water, wouldn't the result be some amount of Electrolysis?

As I see the situation, electrolysis would have to occur since there is a modicum, if not more, of NaCl in sea water (without looking it up, memory says something like 2 to 3%?, not sure). This amount of course would vary with temperature, now therefore if the salinity of the seawater is variable, temperature is variable as well as the oxygen content the dielectric constant will vary.

If the dielectric Constant of the fluid is a variable in the equation for the construction of an EHD and we have the dielectric of the seawater undergoing changes dependent upon outside variables that are out of the designers control, how do you compensate?


I have a good idea how I would go about it but I believe it would not be efficient. How ever I am beginning to wonder, as in some other areas, if the laws of the conservation of energy even apply here.......

I'm stopping for now, I won't go there, leave that for another moment in time, therefore, forget the previous paragraph. But don't forget that thought.

Peace

[Chris Knight]

Well, I don't know. I can throw out a few pieces of information, though.

1. Water has a rather strong disassociative power to splits dissolved material into electrically charged ions, and as we pointed out, dissolved material greatly increases the electrical conductivity of water.

2. Pure H2O has a relatively low conductivity, but that of sea water is midway between pure water and copper. For example, at 20°C, the resistance of sea water with a 3.5% salt content over 1.3 km roughly equals that of pure water over 1 mm, so you can see there's quite a difference in conductivity.

3. Conductivity of sea water depends on the salinity, temperature, and density.

4. Electrolysis requires a current, while

5. EHD requires relatively high electric fields.

6. Electric fields are not attenuated (distorted) by non-conductive materials such as plastics (they go through), while electric current is. For example, conductive cages like a Faraday cages, are used to protect sensitive equipment from stray electric fields and EMPs (in the case of military applications).

7. EHD requires a material with a dipole moment (dielectric constant), or polar material.

8. Water is a polar molecule (with the O atom in the center and the two H atoms off at an angle of about 105 degrees from the linear).

So, if some leakage current is required or there was an imperfectly insulated electrodes, I suspect there would be some electrolysis due to the current. If everything was completely insulated by a non-conducting material, then there would not be any electrolysis.

One thought I have about electrolysis at depths is cavitation. Cavitation is the formation and instant collapse of tiny bubbles caused by rapid pressure changes. It can be very destructive to equipment and I suspect very noisy. I don't know if any bubbles of H2 or O2 formed by electrolysis would be recombining quickly or whether they would just rise to the surface.

In either case, I would wonder if the creation of bubbles from any electrolysis would make a significant amount of noise that could be picked up at a distance.

As far as the dielectric constant changing with the characteristics of the sea water - yes, that is correct. A simple fuzzy logic feedback could be designed into the system. For example, the simplest design would be two small, conducting plates of a known area and separation distance. One would only have to have to keep the plates exposed to the surrounding sea water, say through a small inlet and outlet stream. Since the area and separation distance between the plates is constant, the capacitance between the two plates would show the varying dielectric constant of the
sea water, which would be fed back into the system to adjust the engine.

Andrew