Chapter 40 - The Golden Galleon

Use this section for any discussion specifically related to the chapters posted online of the unfolding biography, "Defying Gravity: The Parallel Universe of T. Townsend Brown
Chris Knight
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Post by Chris Knight »

The British Empire controlled about 25% of the world's land and population by the end of WWI. They had flipped off the gold-standard a couple of times by WWII, going off the gold-standard for the final time in 1931 after (I think) about 6 years.

India is not really all that great of a gold producer, but South Africa and Austrailia were (I seem to remember that Britain initially took interest in Austrailia after losing the ability to dump convicts, etc. in America after the Revolutionary War). So in order to pay for the expansion of the empire (which incidentally lasted about as long as the Roman Empire), gold would have been required to back (print) more money.

Since Britain had just come off of the gold-standard, and the pound was the reserve currency of the world prior to that time, I suspect their reserves of gold were a result of their economic position relative to the rest of the world and also coming from their colonial holdings.

Look at the fiat-dollar today. While it is weak, and the world seems to be wanting to move to the Euro, according to the media, approximately 2 billion dollars of foreign investment are required, per day, to keep the US economy afloat. If we were on the gold-standard, that would mean an equal value of gold coming into the US every day. That would add up after awhile.

Remember that prior to our fiat-backed currencies, economic inbalances between counties were corrected by the movement of actual physical gold.

Andrew
grinder
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ebb and flow

Post by grinder »

Thank you so much Andrew for the in depth look at the way gold has been used through the years. I was struck of course with the ebb and flow of it. So is this what we are saying here? That this shipment might have been just the standard flow back and forth between countries? And maybe Townsend Brown just happened to be there to witness the event?

Or maybe it was indeed a shipment of "Caroline Gold" going off right under evreybodys noses .... as a standard gold shipment. So I guess the only way to follow up on that is to find what it might have funded? I can sense the frustration that Paul has been facing. You can suspect a whole lot but how do you prove any of this?

And I am still puzzled why Linda B mentioned that the gold might have come from India, though Andrew seems to sort of discount that.

The reason that India looms in my mind is that I have been reading some strange accounts about how the Nazis were staging trips to India and Tibet during this time. Sanskrit came up and I notice that it has come up here too in the code breaking side of these discussions, and I don't know why yet but that all seems to have some sort of connections, or maybe I have seen too many Indiana Jones episodes! grinder
LongboardLOVELY
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India and Gold Movements

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

grinder wrote: ...

And I am still puzzled why Linda B mentioned that the gold might have come from India, though Andrew seems to sort of discount that.

The reason that India looms in my mind is that I have been reading some strange accounts about how the Nazis were staging trips to India and Tibet during this time. Sanskrit came up and I notice that it has come up here too in the code breaking side of these discussions, and I don't know why yet but that all seems to have some sort of connections, or maybe I have seen too many Indiana Jones episodes! grinder

Much of Southeast Asia in the late 18th, 19th centuries had established direct navigation across the Bay of Bengal to India and Ceylon. Only in part was this a fruit of the development of navigational knowledge on the part of Malay and Indian sailors. It resulted also from a demand in India and the West (i.e., the Roman Empire) for Southeast Asian produce. The earliest items in this commerce may have been gold, for Indian and Mediterranean references to Southeast Asia in this period frequently refer to that precious metal, and there is probably more than coincidence in the fact that the first gold-mining operations in Southeast Asia (on the coast of Borneo) began at about the time India gold deposits were depleted, and Indian mining and processing technology came then to be employed in Southeast Asia. Other trade items included frankincense and myrrh (forest produce), spices and medicinal herbs.

A good way to tell where the boxes of gold came from is the stamp on the box, that Brown noted in his autobiography/diary. If you can tell what the stamp is, then you could tell where the gold probably came from. Southeast Asia, India, and all the colonies in the area were great staging areas for the axis armies. Control of the passageways between China and Europe equalled control of a large amount of trade and commerce.

But of course, all of these things I am spouting are a good guess at best.

Linda B
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
Martin Calloway
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links to India

Post by Martin Calloway »

Hello folks,
I see everybody has been busy.

This is an interesting discussion about gold! Its good that you have the aid of Andrew and Linda B. who seem to know just a little more than the average about gold. Thats a great help.

So is that maybe where you are going here Paul? That the 50 million was used in some manner in Townsend Browns direction? Would that have been in his lab, do you think , or was that set aside momentarily to establish this "intelligence network".

I do understand from what little reading I have done that previous to the war there were many Nazi sympathizers and they were a great concern to William Stephenson, who seemed to recognize the dangers far more clearly than the American public or government.

You mentioned J. Paul Getty. Now, I am not up to speed on his affiliations but I do recall that he was finally called on his association selling oil to Spain, which was a very transparent sale then to Nazi Germany. There were probably many, many others.

Many BIG Amercian businesses had dealings with Germany and even with England at war, they were trying to maintain business ties. I am sure that Hitler knew what his plans were and if Stephenson was busy recruiting intelligence officers it was probably only to match the flood of German agents in the United States already.

I would imagine that it takes alot of years to get an effective agent in place and working. And though the FBI was active I don't think it had a clue to the dangers involved in the German agent buildup.

I imagine the years from 1933 when your young Townsend Brown stepped off the Johnsons yacht, until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and the United States was officially IN the war .... a span of eight years ... that must have been a headlong rush to "get prepared" for what some knew was coming. It seems rational, given his early ties with Stephenson, that Townsend Brown would have been involved.

Your story started out interesting and is getting better and better! Martin
Victoria Steele
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hidden agents

Post by Victoria Steele »

Paul,

You know, what Martin says raises a very interesting question. How many German agents do you think WERE in this country before we entered the war?

I can see that Hitler would have certainly been interested in collecting as much information in the business and military chnology, anything that would be useful toward the furetherance of his plans in the world.

And who was out there to locate these enemy agents and protect against them? The CIA wasn't up and running yet. So who would have been charged with that sort of responsibility? The FBI? Somebody help me out here. Was there something like an early "homeland security" agency in operation ?

I have read somewhere that Stephenson was rumored to be really rough on Nazi agents that he happened to catch and in fact,(I wish I could remember where I read this,)he was said to have actually murdered someone he felt was a dangerous Nazi agent. I'll look harder so that I am not just adding to the rumor but it comes to mind. I just got the impression that Stephenson was really playing for keeps in all of this.

Its just so strange that Dr. Brown has gotten wound up in this sort of desperate struggle.

You know, like we said, his personality strikes me more as the gentle kid who is just trying to find his special decoder ring.

Alot of people are still around who actually knew Dr. Brown. Have you asked them Paul,if they thought it at all possible that he had the sort of character that was in line with this sort of profession? Could he be the sort of ruthless character that we all associate with this sort of activity? Victoria
twigsnapper
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taking care of Dr. Brown

Post by twigsnapper »

Victoria,

My, its hard to get away from that dangerous, hard as steel, James Bond image, isn't it?

I have titled this post "Taking Care of Dr. Brown" because I hope that it will give you an idea of his true character. He would not have been the dangerous fellow in the shadows. He generally was able to leave that to others.

Dr. Brown was the smiling, totally charming, somewhat vunerable individual that just indeared himself to the people around him. He could demonstrate an impish sense of humor which would sometimes take you by surprise because it would spring unbidden seemingly in a very serious environment.

The ladies simply adored him. I have seen ridiculously tough executive secretaries for important individuals just melt away all their reserves when it came to Townsend Brown. Sometimes they would even forget what they were doing. And all of them wanted to Mother the man in the absolutely most shameful way. He, to them, seemed so in need of their feminine charms and protection.

He was the consumate gentleman. He asked carefully constructed questions .... as in " Good Morning Grace. Is your Mother better this month? Did she get a chance to see that specialist?" And then he would listen to her every word, totally absorbed in her story of what problems her mother was having. It usually only took a few minutes, he never stayed in any office very long but Grace would remember that conversation and six months later the two would pick up where they left off, meanwhile if there was anything he ever needed out of that office ... he always got the first draw. I was always rather amazed.

So, you see, you do not have to be the fellow in the shadow to get information. The object is to have people just hand it happily over.

Morgan, I think discovered that when he first met with the man who was introduced to him as Mr. X. He didn't know at the time that he was meeting with the ultimate spymaster and yet made the note that he "told the man everything about himself during that sailing trip. And this was out of a fellow who generally kept things close to his chest.

So you see, Townsend Brown was actually perfect for this sort of involvement. He had the intelligence, honor and a deep sense of purpose that could not be swayed or discouraged.

Ask others Paul, don't just take this single impression. Twigsnapper
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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endearing

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Thankyou Mr. Twigsnapper for the wonderful character study of Dr. Brown and you made me think .... perhaps there is someone out there who was another secretary perhaps who happened to have dealings with Dr. Brown. I had a couple of thoughts.

Did Dr. Brown ever have a personal secretary BESIDES Josephine or Linda? Did he ever maintain some sort of "staff"?

I was thinking particularly of the firm called GTI (Guidance Technology Inc.) in Santa Monica in the late 60s. Of course I realize that is many years ago and perhaps it is not possible to find someone who had some sort of business interaction with Dr. Brown but if anyone remembers him? Can you add to what Mr. Twigsnapper has said? Was he that well thought of by every secretarial "pool" or did it just happen to be " Graces office."

And Mr. Twigsnapper, you did not specify exactly who "Grace" worked for but I have my own personal thoughts which I believe we have shared. Please let me know if I am on the wrong track here! Thanks. Elizabeth
LongboardLOVELY
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On a hunch

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

The University of Pennsylvania comes up in discussion very VERY often, so I re-read this chapter to figure out the date of Brown's initial service to UPenn.... September 1938....

SO here are/were two men who were contemporaries of his:

http://www.archives.upenn.edu/faids/upt ... ll_gp.html
http://www.oberlin.edu/physics/faculty/ ... stock.html

In the second URL about Robert Weinstock, about the middle of the page, there is this statement:
Although I and my contemporaries were at the time unaware of the fact, the Penn Physics Department had by spring 1938 reached an advanced state of decay. To remedy the situation, Gaylord P. Harnwell and several other young high-quality physicists had been hired by the University to join the Department faculty in summer 1938, with Harnwell as chairman (head?) to replace a man who had just then retired as consequence of age. (emphasis added)
Hmmmm.... could that be in reference to Townsend Brown? Maybe.... 8)

Too bad that he passed away last year. It would have been fun to talk to him and get his perspective on Townsend Brown.

I guess, working backwards, one could find the Physics college at UPenn class of 1939 and 1940 and see if anyone is still alive and recalls when the dept got an overhaul with young scientists :)

Just a thought.

LongboardLOVELY
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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not a faculty member

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

I could be mistaken LBL but I don't think that the type of participation Townsend Brown would have offered to the University would have been in the role of part of the teaching staff .... though he had been an instructor at Norfolk. (the CIA actually mentioned a "teaching post" to the FBI in the fifties . I believe that remark was just interoffice chatter that happened to be in a Freedom of Information Disclosure we got several years ago. I think that those two agencies were considering IF he ever taught but nothing more was ever said. Given that information and some other, I seriously think he would have had a hard time devoting his time to students at this point in his life.)

I have to give it to you ! If information slips past you it will not be your fault at all! Thank you for this in depth look!

To help you out a little. Townsend Brown in the very early sixties was meeting regularly with the son of Eldridge Johnson ( Fenimore). Now I know Fenimore was in the navy as an officer in WWII and probably continued his fathers interest with the University of Pa in later years, so watch out for his name. It might cross over your trail. And remember what Mr. Twigsnapper said. The scent of the fox is very faint indeed.Fenimore was especially interested in deep water submersibles.

And since we are about in the time frame (1947?) What about the "University of Pa students that "happened to be at a UFO crash site in New Mexico? According to William Moore? Why in the world students from The University of Pa? Elizabeth
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Post by flowperson »

Hi Elizabeth...I've done some extensive reading about the events that took place near Sorroco (sp?) NM at the time of the crashes. There were supposedly two, and the Penn students were in the area doing archaeological surveys if I recall correctly.

I don't recall the time of year that they happened, do you ? Just the sort of thing that archaeology students might do with a prof who had some pets that he/she wished to reward between terms, etc. My impression from the narratives that I've read is that their presence in the area was a coincidence...but of course you also know that these days I believe that not much of anything is a coincidence anymore.

flow.... :wink:
Dancing is better than marching
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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the thing is

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

The thing that you might notice flo is that the account of the "University of Pa students at the site" comes, if you follow the trail back to the source ... right from the pen of William Moore.

Already we have discovered that the man who was credited with telling the Philadelphia Story was quite upset with Moore for changing some of that story and ( he thought) for listening to "another source". Check with Andrew on this. He has the ORIGINAL LETTERS FROM ALLENDE TO MOORE.

So I feel relatively comfortable, at the very least QUESTIONING what was going on at the time regarding what was being said and how it was being said about ANY CRASHES.

Given a possible connection in a very covert way ..... why would Moore mention them at all. UNLESS. It is one of those " breadcrumbs" in this dark forest, left out there for those with the eyes to see and follow.?

As Mr. Twigsnapper said, the trail on this fox is VERY faint but I do believe it is there ... if we have strong enough hunting skills to recognize it. The other stuff dragged across the trail .... well .... what did Mr. Twigsnapper call that? Red Herring? Let me know if anything about those students happens along.PLEASE. I have a file waiting with their name on it and nothing in it! My impression is that Moore said that he tried to track them down but ran into a closed door. ( But if that was actually the case, why mention them in the first place?) Riddles.

I am still working on what a " Bandersnatch" might look like! Elizabeth
kevin.b
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Post by kevin.b »

I consider the only thing Dr Brown would have seen in gold is its ability.
Not monetary value at all.
If you flip about in time, you see how at different times gold means different things , and is used always because of its properties.
Look back at tumbaga, look forward to now( relevant to this chapter )
Forget what it's supposedly worth, think what it can achieve.
I have long wanted some gold /copper/silver dowsing rods.
Carbon fibre is brilliant , but imagine if I was covered in gold, its an electrical universe and fibonacci is your main conductor.
kevin
fibonacci is king
Paul S.
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Another "duh" !

Post by Paul S. »

kevin.b wrote:Forget what it's supposedly worth, think what it can achieve.
Well, now, there's another intriguing angle I hadn't thought of. Can I get a D? a U? an H? What's that spell?

I know that gold has intriguing electrical properties, i.e. it's great conductor. Some manufacturers these days make a big deal out of putting gold plating in the electrical contacts of their various components.

I haven't done the math, so I don't have the figure in front of me as to how many ounces of gold (at $35/oz) that $40- or $50-million would have represented but, does it not seem like an awful LOT of gold to be used for electrical purposes?

And, if that was indeed its intended purpose then... what do you suppose might have been it's actual utility? How might it have been used?

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
twigsnapper
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responding

Post by twigsnapper »

Kevin, Navigator.

Perhaps only you could have done that. It takes awhile for the ship to answer, but shes coming on to the new course. Thank you. twigsnapper
Mikado14
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Re: Another "duh" !

Post by Mikado14 »

Paul S. wrote:

And, if that was indeed its intended purpose then... what do you suppose might have been it's actual utility? How might it have been used?

--PS
Teacher?.......teacher? Can I take a stab?

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
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