is now online:
https://www.ttbrown.com/defying_gravity ... lleon.html
--PS
Chapter 40 - The Golden Galleon
Chapter 40 - The Golden Galleon
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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- Mysterious Redhead
- Posts: 930
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:06 am
gold and loss
Paul,
Your story just continues to amaze me with the depth of your research. This is SO different from everything else I have ever read about Townsend Brown! I respect Nick Cook alot and I realize that he never really focused on Dr. Brown but now I'll just bet he is kicking himself over that oversight.
What a story!
I personally think that Josephine and Townesend probably knew exactly what was going to happen, what needed to be done. But it is AMAZING that Josephine kept that secret so well that her own daughter didn't have a clue until just this year. Talk about keeping secrets! The lady was spectacular. No wonder Dr. Brown trusted her as his confidant.
What is Linda thinking about all of this? This has to be some voyage of discovery! I don't know how I would have reacted to that last scene where Josephine tells Morgan that he should leave Linda behind. How hard was that tfor her Paul. Has she shared any of those reactions with you Paul? If I had were involved in it as Linda was? I just can't imagine what a rough ride this has been for her emotionally. But all that makes this story really a gem. Its real and its got heartache.
This is a great, complicated and powerful story. And it is even stronger because you are just telling us the truth! I appreciate not being told what was happening if you don't know. Every other writer (except maybe Cook) has made it a specialty of doing that. Vassilatos particularly went in to talking about how "Tom Brown" felt about this and that (how did he get there, inside a persons head, when he didn't even know him? What kind of fantasy was he trying to spin for us. And it got printed and it drives me nuts because I have actually had people say to me ..."Oh but, someone has already written about Townsend Browns life, theres not that much more that can be said. " Just look at what you have done Paul! This is WONDERFUL.
Vassilatos knew nothing about Dr. Browns personal life and this new information from you Paul just blows him even further out of the water. Still makes me angry at his disregard for the truth.
By the way, has Vassilatos checked in at all? Should I even care? I ask. It still irks me that someone can write so blythely with no real information.
Good work Paul! .... wonderful! Damn! I didn't expect a gold shipment! AND A POEM ... which I think actually tells everything!!!! But where was the gold actually going?
Got to go back to my corner . You are right of course. Why would a young Lt. know anything at all about that gold shipment? Unless he was there in behalf of the Caroline Group and it was THEIR shipment. What would they have been financing? Or perhaps, despite what people were being fed at the time ..... they KNEW that war was inevitable and they were just getting their gold out while they could.
And I find it interesting that you are suggesting perhaps that the "Townsend Brown Foundation" was set up as a vessel to handle what Dr. Brown needed for his research. How is someone going to trace "gifts" to a Foundation? Those can always come through third parties, who might not even really know where they got the money to contribute in the first place.. And it makes sense that the Caroline Group would have to have some way of funneling money to the people that they are supporting. They would have to be very careful at this because thats the initial instruction for investigators. "Follow the money"
I imagine too that the FBI would have been watching any groups movement in the United States during this time. I have been reading up on Stephenson and after your last chapter it makes sense to me that perhaps the Caroline Group was in fact setting up its own intelligence network, right under the FBIs nose. Now THAT had to be dicey! An upset Hoover. Now theres not a pretty thought. Wierd, he was wierd , but I understand that the FBI was everything to him and he would not have taken kindly to agents working for another entity, right under his nose!
Good reading! Lots to think about! I'll be back, you lucky thing you! Victoria
Your story just continues to amaze me with the depth of your research. This is SO different from everything else I have ever read about Townsend Brown! I respect Nick Cook alot and I realize that he never really focused on Dr. Brown but now I'll just bet he is kicking himself over that oversight.
What a story!
I personally think that Josephine and Townesend probably knew exactly what was going to happen, what needed to be done. But it is AMAZING that Josephine kept that secret so well that her own daughter didn't have a clue until just this year. Talk about keeping secrets! The lady was spectacular. No wonder Dr. Brown trusted her as his confidant.
What is Linda thinking about all of this? This has to be some voyage of discovery! I don't know how I would have reacted to that last scene where Josephine tells Morgan that he should leave Linda behind. How hard was that tfor her Paul. Has she shared any of those reactions with you Paul? If I had were involved in it as Linda was? I just can't imagine what a rough ride this has been for her emotionally. But all that makes this story really a gem. Its real and its got heartache.
This is a great, complicated and powerful story. And it is even stronger because you are just telling us the truth! I appreciate not being told what was happening if you don't know. Every other writer (except maybe Cook) has made it a specialty of doing that. Vassilatos particularly went in to talking about how "Tom Brown" felt about this and that (how did he get there, inside a persons head, when he didn't even know him? What kind of fantasy was he trying to spin for us. And it got printed and it drives me nuts because I have actually had people say to me ..."Oh but, someone has already written about Townsend Browns life, theres not that much more that can be said. " Just look at what you have done Paul! This is WONDERFUL.
Vassilatos knew nothing about Dr. Browns personal life and this new information from you Paul just blows him even further out of the water. Still makes me angry at his disregard for the truth.
By the way, has Vassilatos checked in at all? Should I even care? I ask. It still irks me that someone can write so blythely with no real information.
Good work Paul! .... wonderful! Damn! I didn't expect a gold shipment! AND A POEM ... which I think actually tells everything!!!! But where was the gold actually going?
Got to go back to my corner . You are right of course. Why would a young Lt. know anything at all about that gold shipment? Unless he was there in behalf of the Caroline Group and it was THEIR shipment. What would they have been financing? Or perhaps, despite what people were being fed at the time ..... they KNEW that war was inevitable and they were just getting their gold out while they could.
And I find it interesting that you are suggesting perhaps that the "Townsend Brown Foundation" was set up as a vessel to handle what Dr. Brown needed for his research. How is someone going to trace "gifts" to a Foundation? Those can always come through third parties, who might not even really know where they got the money to contribute in the first place.. And it makes sense that the Caroline Group would have to have some way of funneling money to the people that they are supporting. They would have to be very careful at this because thats the initial instruction for investigators. "Follow the money"
I imagine too that the FBI would have been watching any groups movement in the United States during this time. I have been reading up on Stephenson and after your last chapter it makes sense to me that perhaps the Caroline Group was in fact setting up its own intelligence network, right under the FBIs nose. Now THAT had to be dicey! An upset Hoover. Now theres not a pretty thought. Wierd, he was wierd , but I understand that the FBI was everything to him and he would not have taken kindly to agents working for another entity, right under his nose!
Good reading! Lots to think about! I'll be back, you lucky thing you! Victoria
Last edited by Victoria Steele on Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vanishing Vassilatos
I had some correspondence recently with another writer (unpubished) who put what I thought was too much credence in the Vassilatos account. One consequence of that correspondence was a renewed effort to track the guy down.Victoria Steele wrote:By the way, has Vassilatos checked in at all? Should I even care? I ask. It still irks me that someone can write so blythely with no real information.
To no avail. I contacted the two publishing companies associated with Vassilatos - Borderlands Science Research Foundation and Adventures Unlimited Press -- and got the same response in both cases: "we have no contact info on Gerry Vassilatos."
If his publishers don't know how to reach him, I sorta figured 'what's the point?' and moved on to other things.
BTW, "Lost Science," the book that has the chapter about "Tom" Brown and TPX, is now out of print. I dare say.... deservedly so.
Still keeping my fingers crossed that Nick Cook checks in.
--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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- Mysterious Redhead
- Posts: 930
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:06 am
disinformation authors
Looking at it from another viewpoint, with fresh eyes thanks to your research. Could it be that all this "blythe disinformation" that has so thoroughly upset me in the past was just a "disinformation campaign."
I mean, I don't know what the objective obviously was, but to have something out there and then have the generator of that information disappear into thin air, doesn't that sort of smell?
Maybe we were all supposed to believe all of that garbage. Just like the Philadelphia Experiment. Well, Hey ! It probably worked because I noted when I got interested in Nick Cooks work that he himself admitted that it was what was written in the Philadelphia Experiment book that turned him away from seriously studying Dr. Browns contributions.
But the strange thing is, while he discounts him in the end and turns away, Mr. Cook persists in mentioning the "work" of Townsend Brown over and over. Maybe he should have been listening more carefully to what his own muse was trying to whisper to him! Victoria
I mean, I don't know what the objective obviously was, but to have something out there and then have the generator of that information disappear into thin air, doesn't that sort of smell?
Maybe we were all supposed to believe all of that garbage. Just like the Philadelphia Experiment. Well, Hey ! It probably worked because I noted when I got interested in Nick Cooks work that he himself admitted that it was what was written in the Philadelphia Experiment book that turned him away from seriously studying Dr. Browns contributions.
But the strange thing is, while he discounts him in the end and turns away, Mr. Cook persists in mentioning the "work" of Townsend Brown over and over. Maybe he should have been listening more carefully to what his own muse was trying to whisper to him! Victoria
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- Junior Birdman
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:32 am
- Location: Southern California
Gold Galleons
Well written Paul! I especially liked the indirect references to war, and to the fact that Brown may have ended up in Pennsylvania. As we know that he was for sure there 20+ years into the future. (I just looked it up: Paoli, Pennsylvania is only 25 miles from Philadelphia - Paoli being where Linda Brown went to high school)
I was thinking about the gold, Paul and Victoria. Three garbage trucks - wouldn't be conspicuous on a pier? It's interesting the mode of transporation and the secrecy behind it. Yes definitely I think it was gold meant to be hidden from war. And it appears to have "Stephenson" behind it, esp since it was being escorted by a scientist! $50 Mil is a lot of money in 1938. I know that's an understatment. And an ingot is a mass of metal or semiconducting material, heated past its melting point and then cast into a shape which is easy to handle, often a bar or block. So we're not talking about rounds of gold. Ingots in 1938 were probably cast in India in those days. That would mean that the Bank of England probably just got those bars recently (within the last year), because I don't think casting was done very often.
Very interesting read, Paul. Lots to digest. I read through that poem too and it speaks volumes about his personality and thought processes, not just about Josephine. I'll "talk" about that at another time.
Neville Chamberlain, from what I remember about history, was not as astute an observer as Churchill. More on that later too.
WELL Done Paul. Very thoroughly researched!
Linda B
I was thinking about the gold, Paul and Victoria. Three garbage trucks - wouldn't be conspicuous on a pier? It's interesting the mode of transporation and the secrecy behind it. Yes definitely I think it was gold meant to be hidden from war. And it appears to have "Stephenson" behind it, esp since it was being escorted by a scientist! $50 Mil is a lot of money in 1938. I know that's an understatment. And an ingot is a mass of metal or semiconducting material, heated past its melting point and then cast into a shape which is easy to handle, often a bar or block. So we're not talking about rounds of gold. Ingots in 1938 were probably cast in India in those days. That would mean that the Bank of England probably just got those bars recently (within the last year), because I don't think casting was done very often.
Very interesting read, Paul. Lots to digest. I read through that poem too and it speaks volumes about his personality and thought processes, not just about Josephine. I'll "talk" about that at another time.
Neville Chamberlain, from what I remember about history, was not as astute an observer as Churchill. More on that later too.
WELL Done Paul. Very thoroughly researched!
Linda B
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
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- Junior Birdman
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:32 am
- Location: Southern California
I just thought of another question...
WHAT happened to the $50 million bullion after it was deposited at Chase? Or was that where it was purported to have gone but did not really go?
Was it going to be used to fund groups in the private sector that would secretly work to fight the war? Behind Hoover's back?
hmmmmmmm.
Linda B
WHAT happened to the $50 million bullion after it was deposited at Chase? Or was that where it was purported to have gone but did not really go?
Was it going to be used to fund groups in the private sector that would secretly work to fight the war? Behind Hoover's back?
hmmmmmmm.
Linda B
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- The Dean
- Posts: 655
- Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:02 am
gold ingots
Linda B,
I am beginning to agree with Twigsnapper! A valuable assistant for a young husband, a lady who bakes and also knows alot of stuff too!
You obviously know something about gold processing. Can you help me out here? What do you mean by "rounds of gold" . Do you mean coins? thats just a guess . Is "rounds of gold" some professional handle? And they didn't do that melting into ingots often? So you think that the gold might have come originally from India? Can you tell me why you come to this conclusion? Thats a VERY INTERESTING observation!
And I thought the fact that they arrived dockside in garbage trucks was probably a pretty smooth move on somebodys part. Nobody ever looks at garbage trucks yet they are built to carry heavy weight. Did Paul say there were three of them? And yes, they would have been conspicuous on the dock they apparently didn't stay there long. My impression is that the ship was just waiting for those ingots and then slipped her moorings after that. Even if it was noticed and not kept secret it was too late, they were outta there.
And it is odd to me that Dr. Brown would even know about that whole deal, but then ....... what does "special duty" translate as in the Navy?
Interesting discussion. Linda, can you get back on the gold. I am really interested in that comment about it possibly coming from India. Mark C.
What you said about gold being
I am beginning to agree with Twigsnapper! A valuable assistant for a young husband, a lady who bakes and also knows alot of stuff too!
You obviously know something about gold processing. Can you help me out here? What do you mean by "rounds of gold" . Do you mean coins? thats just a guess . Is "rounds of gold" some professional handle? And they didn't do that melting into ingots often? So you think that the gold might have come originally from India? Can you tell me why you come to this conclusion? Thats a VERY INTERESTING observation!
And I thought the fact that they arrived dockside in garbage trucks was probably a pretty smooth move on somebodys part. Nobody ever looks at garbage trucks yet they are built to carry heavy weight. Did Paul say there were three of them? And yes, they would have been conspicuous on the dock they apparently didn't stay there long. My impression is that the ship was just waiting for those ingots and then slipped her moorings after that. Even if it was noticed and not kept secret it was too late, they were outta there.
And it is odd to me that Dr. Brown would even know about that whole deal, but then ....... what does "special duty" translate as in the Navy?
Interesting discussion. Linda, can you get back on the gold. I am really interested in that comment about it possibly coming from India. Mark C.
What you said about gold being
how much would it cost
Another splash! Another bright reef fish checking into this pool. Boy! this is just great!
I have questions! IF Dr. Brown was actually recruiting prospective operatives in 1936 why didn't he continue in that direction? Or did he? The paper article was in March 1936. His "organization " was obviously looking for qualified "Morgan like" young men. But then Dr. Brown apparently spends the summer running a swimming club? huh?
IF someone had joined then in Columbus, in two years would he have been ready to "hit the streets" as an agent? How long does it take to train someone for that sort of role? Did all of them have to leave wives and girlfriends behind? I wonder what it was that this Caroline Group was able to say to these intelligent youngsters to make them consider that sort of radical lifestyle change?
Remember your history? 1936 right up to the time that we were bombed at Pearl Harbor this countrys masses wanted to stay out of any involvement. I have been trying to read up on Stephenson too so that I could contribute to this forum without resorting to "Huh?" too often. Apparently FDR totally agreed that the country had to prepare itself all the while helping England hold Hitler at bay. But from what I have read he had to keep all of those opinions pretty close to his chest. So on one hand he was telling the American public that we would stay out of the war but secretely he was making deals with England and apparently it was Mr. Stephenson who was the man in the middle. Have I got it right so far Paul.
And then you have this strange thread of the "Caroline Group" which I take it pretty much had its own private agenda and the funds to promote that agenda ... with or without the help of the US government.
They were already helping England tool up for the war that was coming. Does that mean that they were promoting the war, or benefitting from it? I don't know. It just simply looks like they could see the future somehow and knew that England needed to move in certain directions.
Bletchley Park for example was a perfect lesson in that sort of advance planning. A private individual bought that property because he knew it was going to be needed. I don't believe he was ever compensated for his investment but I don't think that the Caroline Group (if they were the ones responsible) were expecting repayment. Time was of the essence and they seemed to understand that. All this conjecture is fascinating because it actually makes sense. Annemarie
I have questions! IF Dr. Brown was actually recruiting prospective operatives in 1936 why didn't he continue in that direction? Or did he? The paper article was in March 1936. His "organization " was obviously looking for qualified "Morgan like" young men. But then Dr. Brown apparently spends the summer running a swimming club? huh?
IF someone had joined then in Columbus, in two years would he have been ready to "hit the streets" as an agent? How long does it take to train someone for that sort of role? Did all of them have to leave wives and girlfriends behind? I wonder what it was that this Caroline Group was able to say to these intelligent youngsters to make them consider that sort of radical lifestyle change?
Remember your history? 1936 right up to the time that we were bombed at Pearl Harbor this countrys masses wanted to stay out of any involvement. I have been trying to read up on Stephenson too so that I could contribute to this forum without resorting to "Huh?" too often. Apparently FDR totally agreed that the country had to prepare itself all the while helping England hold Hitler at bay. But from what I have read he had to keep all of those opinions pretty close to his chest. So on one hand he was telling the American public that we would stay out of the war but secretely he was making deals with England and apparently it was Mr. Stephenson who was the man in the middle. Have I got it right so far Paul.
And then you have this strange thread of the "Caroline Group" which I take it pretty much had its own private agenda and the funds to promote that agenda ... with or without the help of the US government.
They were already helping England tool up for the war that was coming. Does that mean that they were promoting the war, or benefitting from it? I don't know. It just simply looks like they could see the future somehow and knew that England needed to move in certain directions.
Bletchley Park for example was a perfect lesson in that sort of advance planning. A private individual bought that property because he knew it was going to be needed. I don't believe he was ever compensated for his investment but I don't think that the Caroline Group (if they were the ones responsible) were expecting repayment. Time was of the essence and they seemed to understand that. All this conjecture is fascinating because it actually makes sense. Annemarie
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- Junior Birdman
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:32 am
- Location: Southern California
Re: gold ingots
I am guessing; sixty percent of India up to 1947 were provinces, British territories completely under British control. The other forty percent were princely ruled. Now if you were a private industrialist with a lot of money and clout and wanted to produce $50 million bullion in secret to be transported to the US (a neutral country until much later) why shouldn't it be produced away from the eye of the immediate government? AND if so, then the provinces of India in the early 20th century under British control had a lot of new technology set up to counteract the growing shadow on Continental Europe, esp after WWI. (I don't know specifics, but this is my intuition). I'll see if i can find out more for you. (The technology I know about. I'll see if I can find the reference).Mark Culpepper wrote:Linda B,
I am beginning to agree with Twigsnapper! A valuable assistant for a young husband, a lady who bakes and also knows alot of stuff too!
You obviously know something about gold processing. Can you help me out here? What do you mean by "rounds of gold" . Do you mean coins? thats just a guess . Is "rounds of gold" some professional handle? And they didn't do that melting into ingots often? So you think that the gold might have come originally from India? Can you tell me why you come to this conclusion? Thats a VERY INTERESTING observation!
Yes, I meant coins when I was speaking of rounds. AND I think that may be a numismatic term. Is that correct, Andy? He'd know.
I almosted submitted this before I thought of another question: The British government certainly would not have relinquished $50 Mil in gold, secretly. So whose money was it?
Didn't think about Garbage trucks being designed to carry heavy weight, but you're right on that count.And I thought the fact that they arrived dockside in garbage trucks was probably a pretty smooth move on somebodys part. Nobody ever looks at garbage trucks yet they are built to carry heavy weight. ....
And yes, they would have been conspicuous on the dock they apparently didn't stay there long. My impression is that the ship was just waiting for those ingots and then slipped her moorings after that. Even if it was noticed and not kept secret it was too late, they were outta there.
Not only "special duty" but Paul used the words "Goodwill Tour". What type of "goodwill tour" would take you to the Baltic Sea where more war damage has been done in the century before 1937? Was it strategic lookout? There was a great article in the 2003 National Geographic about the Baltic Sea. I'll see if I can find it.And it is odd to me that Dr. Brown would even know about that whole deal, but then ....... what does "special duty" translate as in the Navy? Mark C.
This is fun, yah?
LB
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- Junior Birdman
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:32 am
- Location: Southern California
Golden Galleon
I found a great reference to that period of time regarding gold futures. Here's some quotes.
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/curency/ ... tprice.htm
In the past (between World Wars) - "In the foreign exchange market, under the gold standard, exchange rates could, in principle, fluctuate only within very narrow limits determined by the costs of shipping and insuring gold. Thus, if U.S. residents accumulated pounds sterling as a result of exporting more goods and services to Britain than they imported and being paid in pounds for the excess, the U.S. holders of sterling had the option of converting pounds into gold at par value at the Bank of England and shipping the gold back to New York. " ... "In Europe, especially in the UK, there was a widespread desire to return to the stability of the gold standard, and a worry about the growing attractiveness of the dollar—which was convertible into gold—and of dollar-denominated assets. Following a disastrous five years back on the gold standard, the UK abandoned it in 1931, and others followed over the next few years. In 1933, US President Franklin Roosevelt imposed a ban on U.S. citizens’ buying, selling, or owning gold. "
Linda B.
ps. Paul, I just re-read your title for this chapter; pun intended right? Nicely hidden there. Galleon. Haha![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/curency/ ... tprice.htm
In the past (between World Wars) - "In the foreign exchange market, under the gold standard, exchange rates could, in principle, fluctuate only within very narrow limits determined by the costs of shipping and insuring gold. Thus, if U.S. residents accumulated pounds sterling as a result of exporting more goods and services to Britain than they imported and being paid in pounds for the excess, the U.S. holders of sterling had the option of converting pounds into gold at par value at the Bank of England and shipping the gold back to New York. " ... "In Europe, especially in the UK, there was a widespread desire to return to the stability of the gold standard, and a worry about the growing attractiveness of the dollar—which was convertible into gold—and of dollar-denominated assets. Following a disastrous five years back on the gold standard, the UK abandoned it in 1931, and others followed over the next few years. In 1933, US President Franklin Roosevelt imposed a ban on U.S. citizens’ buying, selling, or owning gold. "
Linda B.
ps. Paul, I just re-read your title for this chapter; pun intended right? Nicely hidden there. Galleon. Haha
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
America First!
Pretty much, that's the situation in a nutshell. FDR was quietly marshalling the necessary resources -- and, as you say, lending aid to Britain -- for at least two years before Pearl Harbor. And the whole time he's fending off the sentiments of isolationist forces under the guise of "America First." And others (like Getty Oil) are perfectly content to make money selling stuff to the Germans...Annemarie wrote: Remember your history? 1936 right up to the time that we were bombed at Pearl Harbor this countrys masses wanted to stay out of any involvement. I have been trying to read up on Stephenson too so that I could contribute to this forum without resorting to "Huh?" too often. Apparently FDR totally agreed that the country had to prepare itself all the while helping England hold Hitler at bay. But from what I have read he had to keep all of those opinions pretty close to his chest. So on one hand he was telling the American public that we would stay out of the war but secretely he was making deals with England and apparently it was Mr. Stephenson who was the man in the middle. Have I got it right so far Paul.
And then there's the stuff that's going on in the science world, like early radar, television, microwave stuff -- and the first (controled) nuclear fission experiments.
It's a fascinating time, that's for sure, and Stephenson etal are in the middle of it, and I think I need to spend a little time learning more about that period. Perhaps the next chapter will be called "America First." I dunno... not sure what's around the next corner. I should know better by... Tuesday <g>
Anyway, really interesting posts here, and I want to give them more time, perhaps later this evening or in the morning tomorrow. Just want y'all to know I'm paying close attention.
--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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- Mysterious Redhead
- Posts: 930
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:06 am
privately owned gold
Linda B.,
So, maybe I can understand what you are trying to say here but did I catch this right ?...... so ......... you mean that private citizens were not allowed to own gold by 1938? Is that right? So what does that mean for this gold shipment?
Paul I think said where the gold was destined for but no mention of the name on the transaction. I am hoping that he can go further.
Something is rattling around in my brain and I can't remember it distinctly but I seem to recall William Moore writing that Townsend Brown was r"esponsible for the expenditure of some 50 million dollars with a staff of 11 other Doctors taking orders from him".
Damn! I can't remember where I got that piece of information and now I can't find his book!
Everybody else out there!!!! Does the phrase 50 million dollars ring any bells with you at all? Have any of you recently read what I am trying to recall? I am lost! But am sure that I saw that remark, its just remembering where! I'll get back to you . Meanwhile ..... anybody else out there have a copy of "the Philadelphia Experiment"? Can you look through it for me? Ironic that I suddenly care about something that William Moore wrote! Victoria
So, maybe I can understand what you are trying to say here but did I catch this right ?...... so ......... you mean that private citizens were not allowed to own gold by 1938? Is that right? So what does that mean for this gold shipment?
Paul I think said where the gold was destined for but no mention of the name on the transaction. I am hoping that he can go further.
Something is rattling around in my brain and I can't remember it distinctly but I seem to recall William Moore writing that Townsend Brown was r"esponsible for the expenditure of some 50 million dollars with a staff of 11 other Doctors taking orders from him".
Damn! I can't remember where I got that piece of information and now I can't find his book!
Everybody else out there!!!! Does the phrase 50 million dollars ring any bells with you at all? Have any of you recently read what I am trying to recall? I am lost! But am sure that I saw that remark, its just remembering where! I'll get back to you . Meanwhile ..... anybody else out there have a copy of "the Philadelphia Experiment"? Can you look through it for me? Ironic that I suddenly care about something that William Moore wrote! Victoria
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- Keeper of the Flame
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- Contact:
Just a couple of comments on gold and what I understand of that time (1938). This is just a short history and I'm glossing over much of it, since all of this is available ad nauseum. Anyone please feel free to correct me if I've mis-remembered my facts.
Gold originally became a natural standard, or backing, for currency due to its limited availability, purity, and divisibilty into smaller pieces. Gold backed currencies, or those convertable into gold, controlled the value of a printed currency, and the amount of a currency that could be printed, since the country printing the currency had to have an equal-value-convertability amount of gold in hand.
This kept inflation under control since a) most of the gold that has been mined is still around, unable to be created or destroyed, and b) only a limited amount of gold could be mined annually, which would have to be traded for goods and services in order to be obtained.
Over a period from the late 1800's to the early 1900's the US government obtained a complete monopoly on the printing and issuance of "geenbacks," named for the green color, although they were still convertable to gold. Unfortunately, the US government found it difficult to print the money it wanted as long as the dollar was chained to the existing stores of gold.
In 1933, the US government declared personal ownership of gold to be illegal and split the dollar from the gold-standard (as Britain had done in 1931) introducing the inconvertable dollar. Fines and other unpleasant results awaited those people who "hoarded" (were saving in) gold. This was after the great depression, and many people had learned not to trust the banking system after losing their savings, preferring to save gold instead. As a result, many people again lost their savings in gold to be exchanged for dollars, whose value would from then on be determined by the government's ability to print more dollars. i.e. more dollars in the market means each dollar is worth less in goods and services, and war is expensive. The printing of additional inconvertable dollars helped drive prices to all-time highs during the following period.
So, Britain was off the gold standard by 1931. Obviously, gold was not as evil a beast as the governments declared, and they still coveted it. During this time, gold was flowing from less stable countries, such as Germany and Britain, to more stable countries, such as France and the United States. Gold was an excellent medium of value since it could be easily melted into larger ingots, and as Linda mentioned, was untraceable.
$50 million is a lot of money in those days. Gold was at $35 dollars per ounce, so $50 million would be about 1,428,751 troy ounces (97,971 lbs) or about 490 pounds per crate. My only comment being that it's a lot of weight for one man to carry, even barely.
In any case, the equal value in today's market would be about $843 million. Not a small penny. I'd say that sounds like a government sized wallet.
Andrew
Gold originally became a natural standard, or backing, for currency due to its limited availability, purity, and divisibilty into smaller pieces. Gold backed currencies, or those convertable into gold, controlled the value of a printed currency, and the amount of a currency that could be printed, since the country printing the currency had to have an equal-value-convertability amount of gold in hand.
This kept inflation under control since a) most of the gold that has been mined is still around, unable to be created or destroyed, and b) only a limited amount of gold could be mined annually, which would have to be traded for goods and services in order to be obtained.
Over a period from the late 1800's to the early 1900's the US government obtained a complete monopoly on the printing and issuance of "geenbacks," named for the green color, although they were still convertable to gold. Unfortunately, the US government found it difficult to print the money it wanted as long as the dollar was chained to the existing stores of gold.
In 1933, the US government declared personal ownership of gold to be illegal and split the dollar from the gold-standard (as Britain had done in 1931) introducing the inconvertable dollar. Fines and other unpleasant results awaited those people who "hoarded" (were saving in) gold. This was after the great depression, and many people had learned not to trust the banking system after losing their savings, preferring to save gold instead. As a result, many people again lost their savings in gold to be exchanged for dollars, whose value would from then on be determined by the government's ability to print more dollars. i.e. more dollars in the market means each dollar is worth less in goods and services, and war is expensive. The printing of additional inconvertable dollars helped drive prices to all-time highs during the following period.
So, Britain was off the gold standard by 1931. Obviously, gold was not as evil a beast as the governments declared, and they still coveted it. During this time, gold was flowing from less stable countries, such as Germany and Britain, to more stable countries, such as France and the United States. Gold was an excellent medium of value since it could be easily melted into larger ingots, and as Linda mentioned, was untraceable.
$50 million is a lot of money in those days. Gold was at $35 dollars per ounce, so $50 million would be about 1,428,751 troy ounces (97,971 lbs) or about 490 pounds per crate. My only comment being that it's a lot of weight for one man to carry, even barely.
In any case, the equal value in today's market would be about $843 million. Not a small penny. I'd say that sounds like a government sized wallet.
Andrew
Last edited by Chris Knight on Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Junior Birdman
- Posts: 234
- Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:32 am
- Location: Southern California
Gold Standards
And this is why we are married... No one else in this world could hold a conversation with either of us and be understood or understand
Thank you for that great review. But I think you meant Greenbacks, not geenbacks
More to be discussed later.
Linda B
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Thank you for that great review. But I think you meant Greenbacks, not geenbacks
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
More to be discussed later.
Linda B
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
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- Mysterious Redhead
- Posts: 930
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:06 am
great background
Hey, Thanks Andrew for the excellent background on gold.
I still have a lingering question about something that Linda had said though. She mentioned that there was a possibility that the gold might have been formed into ingots in India because they would have been much harder to trace. I can't tell you why that interests me, (because I frankly don't know why I have zeroed in on that information! It just seems important to me for some reason so I am pursueing this thread.)
Do you know of any more information in that direction? Would that have been a standard operating proceedure for "dark" organizations to maintain their privacy.
And of course I know from reading Kim that India was a hotbed of intrique and conflicting political arrangements. The "Great Game" was alive and well there. Just a passing thought. Victoria
I still have a lingering question about something that Linda had said though. She mentioned that there was a possibility that the gold might have been formed into ingots in India because they would have been much harder to trace. I can't tell you why that interests me, (because I frankly don't know why I have zeroed in on that information! It just seems important to me for some reason so I am pursueing this thread.)
Do you know of any more information in that direction? Would that have been a standard operating proceedure for "dark" organizations to maintain their privacy.
And of course I know from reading Kim that India was a hotbed of intrique and conflicting political arrangements. The "Great Game" was alive and well there. Just a passing thought. Victoria