Chapter 33 - Dredging The Depths

[Paul S.]

...can be found at this URL:

https://www.ttbrown.com/defying_gravity ... dging.html

[Mark Culpepper]

Paul, of course, its an A for this ..... but I have come to expect that of you.

(and I am rather amazed that I have beaten Victoria to the first response spot .) YOU HAVE DONE WELL. I get to say it first!

This book deserves to be side by side to "Tuxedo Park" when talking about the bank closings that week. Alfred Loomis was a behind the scenes advisor to the president and, it is said, called that particular shot. It is fascinating to see how these big businessmen were responding, both to the new President , and the war clouds gathering in Europe.

They saw both situations quite clearly I think. And I agree with you "The Caroline Group" is an apt name for what I am sure would prove to be a major force in Townsend Browns life.

Who would have ever thought? Of course we couldn't see all of this because THIS STORY HAS NEVER BEEN TOLD.... and Paul, I have to say, you are doing a great job.

Many are going to be picking apart that diningroom picture so I might as well start. A couple of observations .... Mrs. Johnson would have been at the opposite end of the table from her husband, as the hostess for the evening .... to her right side would have been seated a very important guest, and just look at who that is. On her left side would have been another important guest , but who is it?

I'll leave now because I am curious to see what Victoria and the others have to say. Good historical accounting. As I said, you book needs to be in every high school library. Mark C.

[Victoria Steele]

Paul,

Of course I found all the bottom dredging stuff interesting but I was more taken with the idea that Mr. Douglas would ask his daughter to "check out" this Townsend Brown.

Morgan made the statement that he went into his first meeting there in Homestead with a mysterious gentleman who seemed to be highly regarded by Dr. Brown. Morgan said to you I guess that he went into the meeting as a "Lion-shocked lamb" and BOY do I see that in Townsend Brown on board the Caroline.

He seems so .... sweet, and enthusiastic ... and yet .... beyond his understanding there seems to be this organization of wealthy men and scientists who have sort of zeroed in on him. Amazing parallel between Dr. Browns experiences and Morgans and so now I see why your book is structured like this. Showing the experiences of both men .... but smack dab up against this "Caroline Group" , showing their different reactions and experiences. FASCINATING!! WANT MORE!!!! I'LL BE WAITING, NOT SO PATIENTLY! Victoria

and Paul .... why are the sisters wearing the same dress design? Or at least pattern? Big mystery there!!!! and of course, more important, who was the gentleman sitting on Mrs. Johnsons left hand side???? I am assuming that Mrs. Johnson was there that evening. ......

And just exactly what happened on that Island. I can tell from the picture that Dr. Brown, feigning a swashbuckling swagger, was having a heck of a good time! Cigarette stuck in his face ... (I don't think he smoked, did he? so it has to be a prop for the occasion.) What kind of a test did Florence put him through for him to know he was a "man of honor". I think you told us that already when you entitled her picture by the Caroline as "the siren". And after reading what Twigsnapper said about that woman resistance fighter ...(the white mouse ... he was entirely accurate, I looked her up.) So do you think that this girl was acting as a recruiting agent for the "Caroline Group", and why were they recruiting someone like Townsend Brown ( because he was brilliant, and he was very interested in communications, from boyhood ) and they must have known that and they were gearing up already for World War II weren't they? Johnson said as much in that letter you quoted. And here comes Stephenson to talk to this young man and (perhaps even more importantly report to Mr. Johnson on the very horrendous future developments in Germany . He probably was the unphotograghed gentleman sitting to Mrs, Johnsons left and directly across from Townsend Brown......

and thirty years later those dinner companions HAPPEN to take a young Morgan .... a future recruit .... a new prospect .... for a sail on Biscayne Bay. OH BOY OH BOY, I GET IT NOW. Victoria, again

[grinder]

Paul and all,

I got interested first in Townsend Brown because of what was written in the Philadelphia Experiment. I have to admit that the chapters OTHER than that one about him just frustrated the daylights out of me. In fact, I went away wondering who in his right mind would publish this stuff? But the story about Townsend Brown seemed somehow more coherent.

NOW I have Pauls account. And instead of wild speculation we have a careful accounting of the steps that he took into a world that I understand is going to be eventually hard to talk about or describe. But it all makes sense. Of course a man like Stephenson would have been keeping men like Johnson and Douglas up to date on what was happening in Europe. Thats what Stephenson did best ....... keep people informed ...... and I can certainly see that "The Caroline Group would have been banding together to face the future AND ALSO PROTECT THEIR OWN RESOURCES AND FUTURE. You can tell that from what he himself wrote Johnson is not sure that this new president can handle the problem. And whats the most important feature in any situation? COMMUNICATION. Stephenson was probably chartered by this group to keep them informed AND TO PROVIDE A CONSTANT FLOW OF THAT INFORMATION. If I was doing that, I would look long and hard at Townsend Brown too.

Paul, you have done a wonderful job. I had never considered what it must have been like with the banks closing around peoples ears ... grinder

[Dr. Jordan]

Mark C. brings up a good point about the seating arrangements in high society; those entertaining would be seated at either end of the guest table. As I don't see Mrs. Johnson, my assumption is that she is seated out of the photograph, with Brown on her right. correct? Of course Paul, you and the rest of us may never know if she was ever even in the photograph. I find it interesting to see how unhappy Fen looks; fed up is a better phrase. I think I've seen physicians look like that during dinner talks. I could just see his eyes roll!

Questions for Paul

There are two unidentified people in the picture. One of whom I assume is our Mr. X and that would probably be the one sitting next to Brown. Who is the other one?

One more question (or food for thought) for tonight:
Is this Eldridge Johnson the same Eldridge as in U.S.S. Eldridge? The infamous "boat" that disappeared, appeared somewhere else, then reappeared in the the same instant at its original spot? (a.k.a. Moore's Philadephia Experiment?) Or is that just one very crazy coincidence?

Paul, this chapter is very well written, by the way. I guess you don't need me to tell you that. Thank you also for renaming that vein of discussions on the spiritual aspect of time travel. I think it is a good thing to talk about, and Ms. Drake and Victoria, and Trickfox ~ we should resume talking about those things sometime. Not now though. I have had a busy few weeks and will be gone for an extended period of time in May.

Waiting with baited breath for Chapter 34.

[LongboardLOVELY]

. Good historical accounting. As I said, you book needs to be in every high school library. Mark C.

I agree ! It does for world history and WWII politics what the Movie National Treasure did for DC. BTW, if this book every made it to film, it would outstrip National Treasure and Spy Game by a mile!

I'm surprised at you Mark, you didn't talk about the New Deal

That's something I'll remember for a long time in high school. I had a great government/econ teacher who was very opinionated about Roosevelt's New Deal. Did you know that about the only programs that proceeded from the New Deal that are still standing today is the Social Security Act of 1935 and the SEC and TVA? I won't go into it here, because I'll get on a soap box, and that will be it for me. And you!
Paul, this chapter is great! Great history lesson too!

Linda

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Linda and Dr. Jordan, Mark and "grinder"

First a couple of remarks about that "dinner" photograph.

I am not sure about the "unidentified" fellow sitting next to Townsend Brown (to his right) but I feel comfortable saying that it is not William Stephenson. He had a reputation for rarely allowing his picture to be taken. I think that Paul has already posted the single photo that is believed to have been taken of him during WWII in response to one of the forum writers ....( forgive me, I can't find it right now) , but I have seen other pictures of him on the net and I don't believe the fellow on the right is Stephenson. Just my opinion.

If you click on the photo you will get a very good blow up with the names attached, which helps, but notice one thing carefully .... the entire end of the table to the left is not shown, but there are table settings. My theory (and it is just that) is that if Mrs. Johnson is at the proper place for such a gathering, she would have been at that end of the table .... with her husband at the "head" ..... there is a table setting to her left, but the person is not in the picture frame. Who is sitting there, out of the camera frame, I wonder?

Dr. Jordan, as for the destroyer" Eldridge" and Eldridge Johnson having any connection? I will leave that to Paul to broach.... I do know that the "Eldridge" was not named for Eldridge Johnson but for another individual so there is no connection in that regard. That was one of the first things I checked out a couple of years ago .... but is there a cosmic ha ha connection? Perhaps.

Linda ..... I agree with you. Its fascinating to see how Mr. Johnson was reacting to FDRs upcoming presidency also. I get the impression that he had decided that it was time perhaps for he and others in his position to look out for themselves because the policies of the government were not all that clear .... or that beneficial in their direction.

After reading the wonderful chapter that Paul did on William Stephenson I can see why Johnson and others would look to him for information which would help them plan their corporate futures. Information is power and in that particular moment in history perhaps it was absolutely the most important thing.

Yes Linda, can you imagine what it was like then? .... to have your personal bank closed down ... with what you considered perhaps your lifesavings in it ?.... and then not know at all whether it would ever open again? Even to draw out grocery money. No wonder they were worried.

I am so pleased that we have your interest in the New Deal and FDR. How much have you read so far about the role that Stephenson is supposed to have played as an envoy between Churchill and FDR?. ..... of course that comes along a little later and I have to remind myself that we are still in 1933. ..... In Europe .... Hitler has just taken over in Germany. And as Stephenson reported to Mr. Johnson, steel supplies will soon be shifted to a build up of armament. I have much to learn about World History at that point. Mark C. Help us out here anytime! And please correct any historical mistakes. Our problem really is that not too many people have even known about this particular history.

Thanks everybody for the imput.

I will be holding down some of the forum fort while Paul is on vacation. Don't expect any brilliant comments but I'm here to answer what questions I can.

And I am with Victoria (who is wonderfully observant) ... she asks why the Douglas girls are wearing what looks like the same patterned dress? Now theres a comment for history!

PS .... and meanwhile as Paul is out there paddling around in that warm water with all those bright fish, I know that he will appreciate any comments generated here. Elizabeth
.

[Paul S.]

.... for the strokes on Chapter 33. Just a few replies and I'm on my way...

This book deserves to be side by side to "Tuxedo Park" when talking about the bank closings that week. Alfred Loomis was a behind the scenes advisor to the president and, it is said, called that particular shot.

I wouldn't mind at all seeing this book on a bookstore shelf, wedged between, say, "Tuxedo Park" and "Galileo's Daughter." That would certainly be good company. I did read Tuxedo Park, can't say I remember most of it, but don't recall any particular reference to the bank holidays.

Mrs. Johnson would have been at the opposite end of the table from her husband, as the hostess for the evening .... to her right side would have been seated a very important guest, and just look at who that is. On her left side would have been another important guest , but who is it?

All accurate except for one minor detail: Mrs. Johnson was not present on the Johnson-Smithsonian Expedition aboard the Caroline. I guess she shared Son Fen's lack of enthusiasm for extended yachting adventures. One of the unidentified diner's might be Anthony Wilding, who served as the Expedition's secretary, but I have no other pictures of Wilding so cannot hazard a guess as to which gentleman he might be, if either.

And here comes Stephenson to talk to this young man and (perhaps even more importantly report to Mr. Johnson on the very horrendous future developments in Germany . He probably was the unphotograghed gentleman sitting to Mrs, Johnsons left and directly across from Townsend Brown

As noted above, Mrs. Johnson was dining elsewhere this evening, so whoever was seated on either side of her that particular night (if anybody) is not pictured here. And while I cannot say for absolute certain, I am dubious that this picture would have been taken during that first night in Nassau. More likely it was taken as a celebratory memento near the end of the voyage, but, like I say, I don't really know.

NOW I have Pauls account. And instead of wild speculation we have a careful accounting of the steps that he took into a world that I understand is going to be eventually hard to talk about or describe.

That's putting it mildly. I have some ideas about where Dr. Brown was and what sorts of things he was doing in the years ahead, but proving any of these connections is going go be difficult if not downright impossible.

There are two unidentified people in the picture. One of whom I assume is our Mr. X and that would probably be the one sitting next to Brown. Who is the other one?

We know what Stephenson looked like, and he is not pictured here. Like I said, I think this picture was taken later in the cruise.

Is this Eldridge Johnson the same Eldridge as in U.S.S. Eldridge? The infamous "boat" that disappeared, appeared somewhere else, then reappeared in the the same instant at its original spot? (a.k.a. Moore's Philadephia Experiment?) Or is that just one very crazy coincidence?

Let's just say for now that... the fact that this man's name is "Eldridge" and that the ship in TPX is also called the "Eldridge" is, well.... NOT a coincidence. Much more than that I many never be able to say.

Paul, this chapter is very well written, by the way. I guess you don't need me to tell you that.

Oh, but I so appreciate hearing that. Thanks, everybody.

Waiting with baited breath for Chapter 34.

Oh, me too... <G>

Did you know that about the only programs that proceeded from the New Deal that are still standing today is the Social Security Act of 1935 and the SEC and TVA? I won't go into it here, because I'll get on a soap box, and that will be it for me. And you!

Yes, it will be interesting to see how the very different political perspectives on either side of the Atlantic (liberal in the States, conservative in Britain) will become united to thwart their common enemy, fascism, and after that communism. But you're right, let's not spend to much time dwelling on contemporary political issues here. I'm sure we all have our opinions of the current course and those that are steering it, but there are other places on the Internet far better suited for such discourse.

And I am with Victoria (who is wonderfully observant) ... she asks why the Douglas girls are wearing what looks like the same patterned dress? Now theres a comment for history!

There are a couple of other pictures which show the girls wearing similar outfits. They seem enamored of "sailor suits," you know, rows of buttons down the front, little sailor caps. They were very much into the whole "sailor" motif on this trip.

Speaking of which, it is time for me to start packing for my own nauticual adventures... I'll check in again later today and see what else I can add to the confusion... <g>

Thanks again everybody for the encouraging responses,

--PS

[LongboardLOVELY]

Let's just say for now that... the fact that this man's name is "Eldridge" and that the ship in TPX is also called the "Eldridge" is, well.... NOT a coincidence. Much more than that I many never be able to say.

-PS

Did everyone get that? NOT a coincidence. Wow. Deep. I've got to go think about this.

[Victoria Steele]

Linda and others ,

Yes that certainly caught my attention all right. Not a co-incidence ..... but the ship named the Eldridge was NOT named after Eldridge Johnson ...... which means? I am not exactly sure.

Its the first time that Paul has even halfway gone in that direction .... even mentioning the "Eldridge"

So what could the connection have been? Thats going to take some thinking on ..... and with Paul off on vacation we are going to be stewing around pretty much in our own juice, but maybe thats alright.

He has sure given us enough to think and talk about. "The Caroline Group" indeed obviously was powerful enough to get many things done.(remember the Dutch scientist who was "borrowing submarines". He apparently was the one individual who managed to get Townsend Brown on the Caroline ..... so he was obviously already a part of this Group. I realize, of course, that it was already in operation when Townsend Brown happened to be on the Caroline in 1933 ...... but " Caroline Group " works for me and cements them in time for us ..... who knows what they actually called themselves (if they even bothered to give their organization a name at all.)

So what would "The Caroline Group" have had to do with the story of the "Philadelphia Experiment?" Theres an interesting question. Pauls gone visiting with bright colored little fish ..... so we can just "talk amongst ourselves " I guess. (Which means that we can get as wild and lunatic fringy as we want. Ideas? Jump on in! I'm going to be thinking on this one for awhile. Somebody jump in there with what you think REALLY happened regarding the "Philadelphia Experiment". Bound to make an interesting subject for discussion. And if we MUST talk about William Moore then I will force myself! <G> Victoria

[Chris Knight]

Nuts.

Why is it I feel like I'm being baited every time Victoria brings up Moore's name? I suppose that is the one fish food we both like to chew on.

Perhaps I should quote Carlos Allende, the one man who originally claimed to have been on the sister ship, S.S. Andrew Furuseth, in one of his letters to Mr. Moore:

"...For it is all too evident that your informant has greatly blended factual information from voyage #3 and voyage #4 that it is the most incredibly confused piece of pure mis-information EVER drawn up by a non-sailor about sailing ships that ever was and then compounds his mis-information by piling even MORE erronous info on top of the misinformation he has first given."

"In the annals of all maritime history your odd informant has probably produced the most shocking homogenization of fact, fancy, bald lies, and pure errors EVER conceived by the mind of both non-official and officialdom in Washington and elsewheres."

So perhaps the original source of information (Allende) didn't really matter all that much in the end - the story was already determined, the real story possibly being just collateral damage of the situation.

Just a thought.

Andrew

[Victoria Steele]

Me?

Baiting you Andrew?

Ha! Look at the information that you have so casually put out there? Where did you get this info? Was it printed somewhere I have never read? I never heard about Allende complaining that "your informant has greatly blended factual information ....." This is a letter from Allende to Moore? But I thought that Allende WAS Moores informant. So .... SOMEONE ELSE WAS TELLING MOORE THIS/ OR WAS HE JUST MAKING THE INFORMATION UP? .... AND ALLENDE WAS CALLING HIM ON IT? tHATS SURE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.

How do you know all this Andrew? Can you say?. I'm getting kind of used to asking and not expecting answers right away .... but if you can tell me your source on these letters I would sure appreciate it. I hope its something solid or we are just doing what I swore I wouldn't do .... and that is chase after stories that are in Mr. Moores imagination just so that we can keep his name in the publics view? I am a bit confused! Victoria

[Chris Knight]

Yes, it is interesting. It seems as though some unknown informant contacted Moore, and provided the story. Or, perhaps as you suggested, Moore and Berlitz made up the whole story. Allende certainly didn't seem to have any faith in Moore or the informant.

The quote comes from one of the letters that came to me. It was actually Elizabeth who pointed it out since I haven't gone over the letter more closely since I received it a few weeks ago.

Andrew

[twigsnapper]

Andrew,

Very interesting information coming to light. And the intuitions of Ms Drake are a force to reckon with.

The man who stepped on board the Caroline during her visit to Nassau in 1933 was later quoted as saying " I wish that I had gotten close enough to Hitler. I could have prevented much by the use of one shell."

You history buffs jump on that would you? so that Paul will have open sources to quote. As you all have realized by now .... my information is difficult for me to speak of openly, but the history is out there for those who don't mind the digging.

But I can tell you this. There ARE RECORDS of what Hitler told his gathered Generals in a meeting held on August 22, 1939. He was going to sign the Moscow Pact the following day ..... and it was just a week before he would send highly trained units into Poland. ( Mark C ... you are a WWII historian ... double check this ......)

Hitler said on this occasion ... " No one will ever again have the confidence of the German people as I have. There will probably never again in the future be a man with more authority. My existance is, therefore a factor of great value ..... Our enemies have men who are below average, no personalities, no masters, no men of action ..... For us it is easy to make decisions. We have nothing to lose, we have everything to gain..... All those favorable circumstances will no longer prevail in two or three years ..... therefore conflict is better NOW. I am afraid at the last moment some swhweinhund will make a proposal for mediation ..... I shall give propaganda reasons for starting the war, no matter whether it is plausible or not. The victor will not be asked later on whether he told the truth or not. In starting and waging a war, it is not the RIGHT that matters, but Victory."

And in the United States, before the war was brought to them ... there were men of action .... Townsend Brown was one of them. Twigsnapper

[Mark Culpepper]

Mr. Twigsnapper,

You have never officially announced your position in this story other than to rather cryptically say that you were Dr. Browns "armed escort" but the last message you offered has given me the insight that you perhaps were more than just "military security" and the photo of you and Dr. Brown in Paris confirms this to me. I expect that you have had a long history in the very black side of English/American Intelligence systems. If this is not so, I expect that I should hear from you. I rather expect that there will be silence. Going on then.

I was very impressed with the quote from Hitler. Though I can't put my fingers on my reference material at the moment I know that it was part of the depositions from the Nuremberg Trials ....( that particular quote) .... so Mr. Twigsnapper sir, thank you for that.

Its a chilling look at the way that Hitler looked at the world. And to someone like Stephenson, knowing ahead of time what the possibilities for war were. And the intent of Hitler. I can understand why he was rumored to have volunteered to assasinate Hitler. For some reason that plan was never put into effect. A person wonders what the world would have been like if Stephenson had been able to get within a good shots distance from Hitler.

But that not being possible perhaps it would be very important indeed to be quickly putting an organization together, or adding to it, knowing all the time the mentality of the man that had just taken over Germany.

I get the impression that the "Caroline Group" was established before the meeting there in Nassau. How old was it , really ? I believe that Dr. Brown was a selected " inductee" Just as I believe Morgan was destined to be. So this is a multigenerational organization. Now theres something to talk about later.

Mr. Twigsnapper. In light of that last thought. There are so many questions I have for you! Did you know Stephenson personally? Did you ever get the chance to meet Morgan? You mentioned in the post to Neenie about Dr. Browns red shirt that you were familiar with it, which means to me that you and Dr. Brown were still working together in the sixties. Can you comment on those questions. I hope? Failing that, has Paul been privy to some of your excellent remembrances?

Again, I rather expect that you did. Correct me if I am wrong, please. So, if you and Dr. Brown were together in Paris in 1956, can you tell us at all what you were guarding Dr. Brown FROM? So many questions! So little time! Mark C.