The Spiritual Implications of Time Travel, Etc.

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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extenuating circumstances

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

I guess that its a race actually between the uncovering of this technology and the " witts growing sharper" of the humans in control of it. Now there is a scarey thought.

I admire Andrew. He was able to admit that it would be his interest to "stay away from weapons development". But as Victoria pointed out, as much as he would want things to be that way it is a little " babe in the woodish"

Extenuating circumstances? You and I have talked about this already Andrew. Would that mean the same to you that it meant to Dr. Oppenheimer?

I see the keys to that .... whatever sports car ...... and I see the kid reaching for them ........ is he ready?

In any case I am thankful that a discussion is going on about all of this. Somehow perhaps the technology of science and the spirituality that is the core of all of our religions can somehow find a meeting and joining point. Elizabeth
Chris Knight
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Post by Chris Knight »

Elizabeth,

My dear wife has duly chastised me :roll: . It is easy to state absolutes, but more difficult to follow them in a more practical sense. I should have rephrased my previous statement to say that we are both of one accord; in the absence of any extenuating circumstances, we will try to follow a path that brings the most good to the most people. I am aware that sometimes reprioritization can arise.

But back to spiritual implications of time travel, etc. (which is where I got myself off track). It is a very important subject, and I can only speak from the viewpoint of being a Christian. A couple of things come to mind:

1) Christianity does not preclude time travel, alien beings, or parallel universes. In fact, you've got beings of various natures popping in and out, here and there, throughout the Bible.

2) One of the main stereotypes of Christianity (and unfortunately is most often portrayed when one thinks of Christianity) is the Crusades (torturing and killing under the banner of Christianity). Any true Christian who knows anything about His words and actions will know how much that is truly the antithesis of the nature of Him or His Father. The Bible specifically addresses that issue. If anyone remembers the parable of the sower throwing the seeds out everywhere, and the seeds fall on either barren ground, shallow soil, or fertile soil, that is what Christians are instructed to do - to sowt the seed (word of God). Not to convert through killing or force. Never. The argument may be made that much of the old testament is violence perpetrated upon those not of Israelite descent. Even those stories have reasons behind them.

The only time the four gospels ever talk about Jesus displaying his anger was when he was in the Temple and overturned the money changers' and tax collectors' tables. What he was angry about was not that the market was being held there, but that the money changers were blatantly cheating the general populace.

3) As I said in another post, some of the worst characters connive and manipulate all under the banner of Christianity (I would not call these people true Christ-followers). This type of charlatan exists in other religions as well. There is so much money to be made by duping people, that I'm sure it's probably hard to resist. One well known person has his television ministries not more than two miles from us. It's a sad state of affairs in any religion or culture.

I'd appreciate any comments from others who are more familiar with Hinduism, Buhddism, and Humanisn in particular, but any other faith is welcome. Of course, I'll try to field any questions in this direction.

Andrew
Victoria Steele
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off in many directions

Post by Victoria Steele »

Hi Andrew,

I can see tht this conversation has the potential of going off in all kinds of directions but I am going to try to be singleminded here. I keep flipping back in my mind to what Elizabeth mentioned about all of us "beating on that closed door". I am pretty sure that was an analogy for our attempts to learn information that has been kept from us in the past. She asked an interesting question (You gotta watch Elizabeth. She asks questions that you THINK are simple, until you read them a few times and it starts hitting you. Hey, this has alot of layers to it!) Anyway. Notice when she mentioned the closed door suddenly opening. She didn't ask what we would do ..... she asked ...... who we will BE.

Now thats an interesting question actually. When we are finally awarded the oportunity to "meet" another intelligence just what is it that they will be meeting? The humans that we are now? The humans that we might someday be? Our worst nightmares? Our greatest expectations?

I don't think it would usually have meant a hill of beans and a discussion like this could have gone on and on for centuries! without it making too much of a difference one way or the other. But somehow I get the feeling that we are all being asked rather urgently ,( maybe not urgently, but at least personally) what do we intend to be, what will we be? And I guess that Elizabeth zeroed in on the scientists in the world because they most likely will be at the vanguard of this "greeting crew" And since Andrew is a scientist, well, I zeroed in on HIM. (Your lucky day huh Andrew!)

So Andrew, since you have been so good about stepping up. Lets just say that another intelligence presented itself to you. How would you regard it, falling back on your Christian teachings? If it does not appear to you as being "human" would that exclude it from being from God? How quickly would others in the Christian community regard these outsiders as " The work of satan"? And what would be your responsibilities be in this new relationship to this new "creature".

The Bible teaches that man was given "dominion" over the Earth. If this "creature" happened to be "Earthbound" would we then automatically its master? Would it be "sub-human?"

That can cause problems. Remember ladies. There was a time in human history when women were regarded as "not fully human" .... and those were religious teachings too.

Hey, sorry to load all of this on your shoulders Andrew. I am like you. I wonder if there are other religions out there which might have a slightly less complicated time greeting a new intelligence. Anyone else out there? Victoria
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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native wisdom

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

There are many times when I look over the work that Townsend Brown accomplished and I read his words from various sources and it strikes me that he should have had an American Indian as a side kick. You know ..... not the "Tonto to the Lone Ranger" version but someone who he could talk to about spiritual matters.

According to many American Indian tribes EVERYTHING in the world that we can see and the worlds that we cannot are connected. And because of that connection EVERYTHING becomes a "relation". I have an older friend who speaks of riding alone in the early morning so that he and his "relations" can speak. He is not talking about his old granny down the road. He is ACTUALLY meaning the boulders, the sun casting shadows, the shadows themselves.

and in a truely physical manifestation perhaps
Dr. Brown was recording how that all actually works. Its a far out thought. But its simple and direct.
Elizabeth
grinder
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opening door

Post by grinder »

Elizabeth,

You said that scientists would probably be on the "front line" sort of when it came to interacting with "another intelligence" and you look into the future and ask what would that be like.

I have been reading too! And it was you who said that this "dusty road of time went both directions". So I have a way out question for you!

"IF Dr. Brown had been contacted by that other intelligence some time in the past , how would HE HAVE reacted to it?" The questions that you asked Andrew would apply here? What spiritual underpinings would Dr. Brown have fallen back on? Who was there for him to talk to? I mean, did he have anybody? Maybe not "Tonto". You seem to think that an American Indian would have been able to get his mind around this whole thing where maybe others wouldn't have. But I don't see a "Tonto" anywhere. So was he totally alone in this? I know Josephine was by his side, but would he have shared this knowledge with her?

When they were married Josephine and Dr. Brown broke many conventions. Being married in a glade, with an animal taking up the spot of "best man" ( a german shepherd I understand). It reads nearly more like a pagan ceremony, except for the visiting minister that I guess was a friend of his Mothers.

I know that you have said Paul that there, as far as you know, was no "face to face" meeting between dr. Brown and "Others" but that doesn't mean that the realization that he was dealing with something SPECIAL didn't at some point hit him in the face. Just curious about that moment and if he had anyone to share his thoughts with when that happened. grinder
Mikado14
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Re: opening door

Post by Mikado14 »

grinder wrote:
When they were married Josephine and Dr. Brown broke many conventions. Being married in a glade, with an animal taking up the spot of "best man" ( a german shepherd I understand). It reads nearly more like a pagan ceremony, except for the visiting minister that I guess was a friend of his Mothers.
Grinder, here is something to grind on.

Tibetans believe that there are 5 mammals that possess an individual soul. Two of them are dogs and horses.

I would take a dog or a horse as a companion anyday to converse with,,have had both and have done it.

That was not my two cents, that was a whole buck!

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Mikado14
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Re: native wisdom

Post by Mikado14 »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote: According to many American Indian tribes EVERYTHING in the world that we can see and the worlds that we cannot are connected. And because of that connection EVERYTHING becomes a "relation". I have an older friend who speaks of riding alone in the early morning so that he and his "relations" can speak. He is not talking about his old granny down the road. He is ACTUALLY meaning the boulders, the sun casting shadows, the shadows themselves.
I believe I stated just such a thought in a previous post a while back. When man learns that he is not the nexus of the universe, when he realizes that the sun does not only rise and set over him, when he learns to revert to the simplicity of the child and accept the "alien" for what it is and look upon the new with eyes wide, bright and yearning to be taught, then and only then will the lock appear on the door. Until then, learn.

At this point, for some unknown reason, that is what Mr. Twigsnapper is attempting to do. How he knows, I have my suspicions but as the old adage says, "Give a fish, the man eats today, teach him to fish, he eats tomorrow".


Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
grinder
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Tibet? Sanskrit?

Post by grinder »

Just a moment here. Thanks Mikado for that important little piece of information! It was like a switch for me when you mentioned Tibet and I remembered that somebody has said (his daughter? ) that Beau Kitselman was an expert in Sanskrit and studied Eastern philosophies.

So Paul. Would Beau Kitselman have qualified as a proper "sidekick" for Townsend Brown? And I mean that on a spiritual, mentor level? Would he have been at Townsend Browns side BECAUSE of this strange connection to another world.

Paul, have you found out more about Beau Kitselman? Was he actually Townsend Browns best friend, do you think? grinder
Mikado14
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Re: Tibet? Sanskrit?

Post by Mikado14 »

grinder wrote:Just a moment here. Thanks Mikado for that important little piece of information! It was like a switch for me when you mentioned Tibet and I remembered that somebody has said (his daughter? ) that Beau Kitselman was an expert in Sanskrit and studied Eastern philosophies.

So Paul. Would Beau Kitselman have qualified as a proper "sidekick" for Townsend Brown? And I mean that on a spiritual, mentor level? Would he have been at Townsend Browns side BECAUSE of this strange connection to another world.

Paul, have you found out more about Beau Kitselman? Was he actually Townsend Browns best friend, do you think? grinder

Bingo!!!!!!
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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conciousness studies

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

You guys are so right. Bingo.

And the most interesting connection for me is the fact that Mr. Kitselman was known ALSO as an expert in conciousness studies. What would that mean in this context? How much time do you have? Someone concerned with people being able to recognize what it is that is going on around them, at Townsend Browns right hand, looks like. And his best friend I have been told.

Actually I am comforted knowing that Dr. Brown had someone he could talk with about all of this. Elizabeth
Chris Knight
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Post by Chris Knight »

Victoria,

I see what you are asking, and I'll try to see if I can give some answers from my viewpoint. Of course, much of this is conjecture. Until one actually comes face to face with a situation, it can be hard to give anything other than generalities.

1) "Lets just say that another intelligence presented itself to you. How would you regard it, falling back on your Christian teachings? If it does not appear to you as being "human" would that exclude it from being from God?"

No, in a created universe, everything comes from God. This universe seems to be fairly well organized, so I really don't mind being here. Everything has it's place and purpose, and everything happens in its own time, so I don't have any problems with that question. I don't know what purpose everything has, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have one.

The question as to whether something has a soul or not from the Biblical teachings comes down to humans have souls, animals have spirits, and inanimate objects don't have anything. There is nothing about the state of angels (messengers), plants, or anything else.

2) How quickly would others in the Christian community regard these outsiders as " The work of Satan"?

You'll have a range of just as many opinions as with anything else. It will depend entirely on the situation, and in any case it is hard to estimate the effect that it would have on the human race. Two things that will make a difference to Christians:

Firstly, Lucifer was apparently one of God's most beautiful creations to that point - even to the point of having some form of musical instrumentation on his body that made music as he moved. Lucifer's job was basically to stand behind God to accentuate His glory. Lucifer was later given the name, Satan, which translates as "deciever." His error was basically one of narcicsism - he felt he could do a better job.

So Satan is not an funny little man in a red suit with horns and a red pointy tail. He is an very intelligent, extremely powerful, and excrutiatingly beautiful creature who can appear as an angel of light, transcending our physical reality, but who come with an agenda of deceit. He has at his disposal legions of other created beings that came over to his side - apparently a failed military coup.

Secondly, Christians are expecting a man of great influence and power to arise to bring world peace, who will be guided by Satan. This anitchrist, or "false Christ" will bring peace to the world through the weilding of power by bringing all of the world's military powers under his direction. Later he will use this power to eradicate any who oppose him.

Any Christian, and any other person of any faith or race, must use all of their discernment to determine the nature of the encounter. As we've been saying - everyone, and every "creature" or "being," has an agenda. An atitude of "be careful whose car you climb into" may be appropriate.

3) And what would be your responsibilities be in this new relationship to this new "creature."

That depends entirely on the situation, which could be anything depending on the agenda at hand. If it wants to destroy us then I would do whatever I could to design defensive and offensive weapons. If it were peaceful, then I would do whatever I could to support peaceful relations with it.

Unfortunately, I have no idea what's out there or what its adgenda might be if there is anything. We've all seen movies from Cocoon/Contact to Aliens/Predator, and I don't have any information as to which might be more accurate.

4) "The Bible teaches that man was given "dominion" over the Earth. If this "creature" happened to be "Earthbound" would we then automatically its master? Would it be "sub-human?" That can cause problems. Remember ladies. There was a time in human history when women were regarded as "not fully human" .... and those were religious teachings too."

Unfortunately, the whole "dominion" over the Earth passages have been bastardized, but the original conotation basically means "caretaker." Man's purpose was to take care of the plants and animals. Also, the original idea of "subdue" has been corrupted to be taken as stomping one's jackboot on someone/something's head.

There has always been someone/group in any branch of religion and science that will twist it to forward their own purposes - we've seen that with everything from killing Australians aborigines, voting rights, the Aryan race, women's sufferage, etc. The Bible has never portrayed the value of a woman as anything less than man. The responsibilities are different, but the worth is equal.

In fact, at the time of Jesus' ministry, women had really reached a level of unimportance except as property. Jesus was very radical in his elevation of women to their original status - spending time with them, talking with them, ministering to them, etc. Remember that he was of rabbi status - an expert on the scriptures, and it was unthinkable for him to treat women (and other people considered to be of lesser importance) as he did.

Again, it's hard to pinpoint absolutes. A good example is our discussion here on consciousness. We don't really have much of an idea how our brains work, or what they can do. Maybe we have the innate ability telepathy, teleportation, parallel universe-jumping, matter control, etc. built right in, but we haven't found the "on" switch yet. Maybe we're already in that sports car, but we can't find the gas pedal.

Andrew
Victoria Steele
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important messages

Post by Victoria Steele »

Andrew,

Important messages deserve contemplation before having responses. So I am going to be gone with your message for a little while. Back in a little bit. Alot to chew on here and I think that this exchange of opinions is important . Thanks for taking so much effort in your answer. I'll try to do the same with my response.

And Thankyou too LindaB. I may have addressed my questions to Andrew but I hope that you know I was thinking of you too so if you want to give the feminine viewpoint you know that I am always interested. Victoria
Mikado14
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Agendas

Post by Mikado14 »

Mr. Twigsnapper,

Look what you hath done. We are now ankle deep into christianity.

Christianity helped to prolong the Dark Ages.
Christianity imprisoned people like Galilei Galileo for attempting to educate.
Christianity was the basis of many a Holy War, and not just the Crusades
Christianity was the foundation for the Inquisition
Christianity had a finger in the demise of the Aztecs
Christianity, along with manifest destiny, helped to suppress the Amerinds.
Christianity created many a holy war in Africa.
Christianity...........and the list goes on.

Does Christianity have a place in science?

There are so many Christians, but would any of them or could any of them truly answer that they would face the lions in the arena than to give up their faith? I would bet that there would be a stampede and it would be for the exits.

There is no place for religion in science but there is for science in religion.

Before this thread goes to far, I would recommend that a little soul searching be done.

If you had a new technology that could help man or hurt man and someone had a gun to your child's head, would you use it to hurt man?

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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sports cars

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

I am doing what Victoria did, taking notes, responding later. Important things being talked about here.

I know that Paul is probably relieved that we have centered this discussion here in this post! He gets a nervous twitch when discussions on religion and outside forces "spill over" into the other posts! Probably because he knows that sometimes when people start debating the points of religion they forget what they were talking about in the first place. And once you start down that "slippery-slope its hard to find your way back. I guess that we run the same risk here, but thats what this post is all about, right?

I have just one comment for you Andrew. When you said that we might have "talents" that we just haven't uncovered yet then ou added that maybe we just hadn't dicsovered the gas petal yet. You are probably quite right!

Good thing too, because nobody yet seems to know where the steering wheel or the brakes are yet.

And Mikado your question about "what would you do?" seems brutal but is true to the possibilities and realities of life. Its a question I would hope no one has to ever answer. But the point is well made. Everyone has a breaking point.

Tomorrow? Elizabeth
Paul S.
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TTB and "Beau"

Post by Paul S. »

Lest anybody think I'm not following along....
grinder wrote:So Paul. Would Beau Kitselman have qualified as a proper "sidekick" for Townsend Brown?
Beau was no more Brown's "sidekick" than... well, than Laurel was Hardy's. They were partners. Equals.
And I mean that on a spiritual, mentor level? Would he have been at Townsend Browns side BECAUSE of this strange connection to another world.
That's a really interesting question. There may only be one person who can answer it. I suspect the answer is "yes," but that's the sorta answer which just opens the door to a hundred more questions.
Paul, have you found out more about Beau Kitselman? Was he actually Townsend Browns best friend, do you think?
Best friend? Possibly. But I think it goes deeper than that: one of the characteristics of what we are calling "The Caroline Group" is that its operatives (a term that only scratches the surface...) traveled in pairs. At certain times, Brown and Kitselman were partnered in that manner; let's say Brown was the "physicist" and Beau was the "mathematician," though again, there was more to it than that.

I have to confess, I am still woefully behind on finding out what I need to know about Beau. Like Brown, the "records have been weeded." Go to "the Google" and look him up. You won't find much....

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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