HOW BROWN LOST HIS FINGER

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
MARK MOODY
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HOW BROWN LOST HIS FINGER

Post by MARK MOODY »

Here is what I saw on a videotape by Stan Deyo.
Deyo says Brown lost his finger while working with a lathe machine.
Remember, take this as a true possibilty, because it was Deyo who discovered the location of the Brown/Bahnson lab and made a videotape of Deyo walking around in the lab touching objects seen in the Bahnson family video of Brown's work. Apparently, Brown was working on this machine while designing or cutting a design.
Mark
Paul S.
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Ennnnh.... Thank You For Playing

Post by Paul S. »

I'm not going to say now how Brown lost his finger.

But that wasn't it.


--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
twigsnapper
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lost finger

Post by twigsnapper »

Mark,

I can speak for the fact that Dr. Brown was already minus that finger in England in 1956 .... and unless I am completely off course, the Bahnson lab participation was in 1957-58. So I agree with Paul .... good guess on Deyos part, but inaccurate.

Twigsnapper
Chris Knight
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Finger

Post by Chris Knight »

It's worth the wait to find out, everyone 8)

Paul's just setting up the characters of the story right now.

Andrew
grinder
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ask the family

Post by grinder »

This response is to Mark Moody.

I wish I had the same opportunity that you had, corresponding with Dr. Brown. I am just a newcomer in all of this.

I appreciate the fact that you believe that Stan Deyo would be telling the straight story about Townsend Brown losing his finger at the Bahson Labs. And ...... given no other source of information, I might look at that more seriously .....

But you have to admit ....... apparently no one but Paul has connections to Linda Brown .... his daughter, she certainly would have known how and when her Dad lost his finger. So if Paul says Deyos story is off .... I am inclined to believe him.

Pauls not telling right now, which means that particular injury is encased in the story somehow and hes not ready to tell it yet ..... so I guess we have to wait. So I guess I'll stand in line behind Victoria ... and wait for Thursday! grinder
Chris Knight
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Post by Chris Knight »

Grinder,

Uhm, no Stan Deyo couldn't be more incorrect. He was just guessing, and in the absence of anyone to make a counterclaim at that time, he, like William Moore, really didn't have anything to worry about. I haven't seen this video, but I'll bet he couched his theory, with a "one may suppose..."

I've been close friends with the Brown family for over 20 years - his daughter does know how he lost the finger, and Stan Deyo's explanation is absolutely not how he lost his finger.

I'm looking forward to Paul telling the story, because it's a really, really intriguing story. Paul is around 1933 now, so we only have to wait around another 15 years worth of Brown's story.

Cheers,

Andrew
MARK MOODY
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Brown's finger loss

Post by MARK MOODY »

Thanks guys,
I only told what I had seen on the Deyo video.
I only believed it because the video does show Deyo walking around in Bahnson's lab and shows certain items sitting in dust.
Since I am fully awareof the silent Bahnson lab film, and since some of the items in Deyo's video tour matched the Bahnson film, I naturally assumed:( Deyo could be telling the truth. Oh well, back to the old drawing board. But, pplease do understand, I am not upset nor do I wish to upset anyone. This is just another good example of why anyone who respects Brown's work deserves to hear the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So I too await more info.
Now about that movie......
Mark
Mark Culpepper
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back to the drawing boards

Post by Mark Culpepper »

MARK ..... hey, never apologize ... not to any of us ... we are all looking for the truth and the one good thing is .... when one of us says something that is off the path .... there will be someone who comes along with a course correction. All those little course adjustments are expected and welcomed. I am not speaking for Paul here but I have a feeling that he would agree with that sentiment.

Back to the drawing boards indeed!

Mark, Have you taken a good look at the last chapter? Has it hit you yet what the implication of that might be?

it hit me sooner than some because I am a history teacher so I have some background in World War II .... Stephenson was a real life person ..... his operation in NYC was the largest PRIVATE intelligence gathering system up to that time. And now I am remembering what Paul said the difference between "classified " and "secret" was ...... and I have a feeling that I will never be able to see the name Townsend Brown again and think the same restricted thoughts I had before.

(Townsend Brown was always somehow murkily tied to "The Philadelphia Experiment" but now .... I don't even know which direction to go in mentally. This is a whole new situation folks! Those who thought that they had a handle on the Townsend Brown story and what it represented ...... well ..... that won't fly anymore .... there will be a brand new ship out there. We have all been forced to go back to the "drawing boards". Mark C.
Paul S.
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Re: HOW BROWN LOST HIS FINGER

Post by Paul S. »

MARK MOODY wrote:Deyo says Brown lost his finger while working with a lathe machine.
Well Mark, it seems I owe you an apology, becuase it has in the past week come to light that there is more truth to that "lathe" story than I had previously thought. At the very least, Stan Deyo had a credible source to steer him toward that conclusion.

We have been blessed almost from the outset of this project to have the volunteer aid of a woman from Zanesville, Lace Lynch, who is something of a genaeologist and historian with a personal interest in the history of Zanesville. She has been sending us newspaper articles and other information as she comes across them and last week she found this item in the Zanesville Times Recorder from December 24, 1936:

Image

The text reads:
Townsend Brown of 733 Adair avenue, underwent amputation of the second finger of his left hand Wednesday afternoon in Bethesda Hospital following an accident which occurred at the Wise Foundry, Machine & Supply Co. on North Sixth street. Brown who was having some work done in connection with an experiment. His finger was caught in a lathe operated by another man.He was removed to the hospital in the Dean ambulance.
Must have been a slow news day in Zanesville...

Now, this story probably should have been included in the recently posted "Chapter 35 - Something Changed," which covered the period that includes the date of this article. But I find myself reticent to include it, if only because this account differs so dramatically from the account that I previously subscribed to re: "how Brown lost his finger" -- the account that I had in mind when I replied "that ain't it" to Mark.

I am now struggling to reconcile that earlier account with this printed account, and believe me, the accounts do not reconcile easily. I've got rabbit holes inside my rabbit holes on this one, kids.

About the best that can be said at this point is to take note of the fact that this item appeared in "the local paper," and note some of the commentary like

http://forum.ttbrown.com/viewtopic.php?p=1393#1393

...that casts some doubt on the absolute reliability of "local news" as it would appear in a paper like the Times Recorder.

However, for now, I guess, this printed account is going to have to stand as the explanation for "how Brown lost his finger," with the added note that this item uses the word "accident" and appears in the same paper that also described Uncle Orville's fall from his office window as a "tragic accident."

Ah well, just another cosmic ripple in the Parallel Universe.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Annemarie
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lost finger explained

Post by Annemarie »

My second post about this lost finger. I can understand that would have been an appropriate thing to say . That it was indeed tragic. I pointed out in my other post that it was Christmas Eve and I am sure that with a two year old son that this lovely couple was not considering their boys 2nd Christmas would be spent visiting Dad in the hospital.

He must have been right handed because nothing is ever said about any sort of disability and I don't think that Paul has even mentioned the "missing finger" that much.

What a way to start 1937! And then in the early spring they lose Hawthorne at auction? At AUCTION? Paul? Does that mean that the bank foreclosed on them? or the person that lent them the money for all of those improvements maybe? I thought that the family had plenty, but maybe with a proud uncle "falling" to his death when his skull "alighted " on the concrete , maybe there wasn't actually any money left.

Its just like a series of bad omens. First the tragic accident and the loss of his finger, then the loss of the place where they were married. I wonder what was going on in Josephines mind just about then. How difficult was it to deal with all of that. And Paul mentions I think that she moved back into her Mother-in-laws home. Oh fun. All those who have had that lovely experience, the line forms ... well, you know the rest ..... Annemarie
Paul S.
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Hawthorne Auctioned

Post by Paul S. »

Annemarie wrote:What a way to start 1937! And then in the early spring they lose Hawthorne at auction? At AUCTION? Paul?
Yes, the property was auctioned off.
Does that mean that the bank foreclosed on them? or the person that lent them the money for all of those improvements maybe?
I don't know about "foreclosure," but the Times-Recorder article that announces the pending sale says that the "receiver for the property will be in charge of the sale." I'm not well versed enough in real-estate to know the difference between "foreclosure" and "receivership," but I suspect the difference is mostly semantic. In either case it would seem to reflect some dire financial straits.

I thought that the family had plenty, but maybe with a proud uncle "falling" to his death when his skull "alighted " on the concrete , maybe there wasn't actually any money left.
Yeah, I hope that if I ever fall out of a window, that "alight" on whatever body-part hits the pavement first.

With another nod of gratitude to Lace for her efforts, here is the full text of the article that announced the final sale:

The Zanesville Signal Tue May 18, 1937

COLUMBUS MAN BUYS HAWTHORNE

John K. Hislop, Columbus mortgagee purchased the L.K. Brown property, a fashionable pleasure resort known as Hawthorne Pool, located on Adams Lane, Monday afternoon at auction sale. The property and chattels appraised at $24.288, sold for $21,600.
The auction was conducted by C. M. Gibson of Columbus, receiver for the property.

The real estate appraised at $22.500 was first offered for bid, Mr. Hislop offering the high mark of 20, 500.

Later the personal property, appraised at $2,088 was bid in at $1,000. Offered jointly, Mr. Hislop offered $21,600 the selling price.

The sale wil now have to be approved in the common pleas court of Franklin county.

Following the sale, Mr Hislop stated that his plans for the property were indefinite but the hope was expressed it would be opened for the summer season.

A total of 39.17 acres, several buildings, together with a swimming pool and chattels were involved in the sale.
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Annemarie
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why not stay?

Post by Annemarie »

Paul,

Of course, I don't have the information at hand that you do but a thought struck me while reading about Hawthorne and how precious it must have been to the Browns. As I said, I don't have all the information but it was mentioned that there was a possibility the the new owners might reopen the club for the coming season. I mean ..... wouldn't it make perfect sense? The place is up and running with the first season behind it, and unless it was absolutely bleeding dollars down the drain , wouldn't it have made sense to go again another summer?

Now I don't know if there were bad feelings, animosity. Perhpas the Browns would never have considered this option but, why didn't they just stay and run the place for the new owners? They certainly were the social draw to the place and I would think that they would have been an asset.

And then I remembered that he had lost his finger in that accident just a few short months earlier and thought just maybe Dr. Brown just didn't want to be there anymore.

Because I can't imagine that Josephine would have given up on the place if she had the proper support emotionally from Dr. Brown. Any girl who climbs up on a tractor to "get things done" is not the type to just walk away from a situation. Unless of course ... he didn't want to be there.
Its a really interesting situation. So what did they do after the loss of Hawthorne? Did he fianlly have to take over the family business? Was there any "family business" left?

Need more chapters Paul! Annemarie
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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Comparing pictures

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Hi Paul and everybody,

I know everyone realizes that I have been baffled too about the differing dates for the loss of that finger and then this new information (wrapped up neatly in that immaculate white suit.)

Lets just say that your new source is entirely accurate for a moment. he/she says that the white suit was worn in Bermuda in the spring of 1934.

How hard would it be to post several photos on one page (or at least one of each year .... of Dr. Brown and then we could all just look at them and see .... either through the hair style or attitude ... which of the dates is the closest to the truth.

I was at a loss to at the apparent "curve ball" thrown in our direction by this valuable source .... with the story of the "lost finger" in 1945. But it is true, once he went back, Paul admits that his source never came out and said precisely that it was Dr. Brown who lost his finger then. We both just assumed that. I don't yet understand the reasoning in telling us that story but I am sure if we keep working it will become more clear.

So the white suit picture has to be pre Dec of 1936 (if the newspaper article is right and I can't quite see how it could be wrong.....so we go on)

So Bermuda in the spring of 1934 could be possible. But Paul, wasn't that when Joseph Brown was born? What did your source mean when he said "spring" I wonder?

I wish Victoria was here in a way because she is excellent about observing things and she might pick something we have missed.

Is there a way that we could put those pictures in the white suit up against the picture taken of Jo and Townsend Brown (shes in plaid) the summer of 1936. And then maybe throw the picture of Townsend on the Caroline in 1933. I have a feeling that the hairstyle is going to look much more like the 33 picture than the shot taken in 1936. We just need to compare for ourselves. Maybe the folks on the forum will be kind enough to give us their opinion. Possible?

The one thing that screams out at me is that Townsend Brown was SERIOUS about what he was doing .... he is not partying in that suit, but I did notice that it was three something according to the clock on the wall and I wondered quickly if .... if he was in Bermuda .... did he have "tea" at four o clock, with the people he was with.

And Paul, I know that the written tab on the photo says "basement laboratory". Is that done to explain the pipes on the wall in another room? A Naval engineer happened to look at that picture this weekend and he made that comment that it looked like onboard some sort of large ship. Could that have been possible? Elizabeth
Paul S.
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Re: Comparing pictures

Post by Paul S. »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:Lets just say that your new source is entirely accurate for a moment. he/she says that the white suit was worn in Bermuda in the spring of 1934.

"All facts are indisputable until proven otherwise..."
How hard would it be to post several (or at least one of each year .... of Dr. Brown and then we could all just look at them and see .... either through the hair style or attitude ... which of the dates is the closest to the truth.
Probably not too hard, let me think on that for a minute to figure out to configure it.

I did think he looked very different in those "white suit" photos than he does in other photos. Maybe it's the lighting. He just looks a bit more gaunt and austere.
I don't yet understand the reasoning in telling us that story but I am sure if we keep working it will become more clear.
Provided our heads don't explode all at once first..
So Bermuda in the spring of 1934 could be possible. But Paul, wasn't that when Joseph Brown was born? What did your source mean when he said "spring" I wonder?
Joseph was born March 13, which is not quite technically "spring." I don't think we know for sure if TTB was around when Joseph was born. I think we have evidence that he was elsewhere at least a week later. A postmark from Toledo or some such place, I have to check.
I wish Victoria was here in a way because she is excellent about observing things and she might pick something we have missed.
Be careful what you wish for... <g>

Let me see what I can do about gathering those pictures together.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
grinder
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something else

Post by grinder »

I seem to be out of sync. I can't find those pictures of the white suit, or the heated discussions that ensued over "credibility of sources" but I did find something I had written (and forgotten about) so I am going to repost it here to show Paul that he is not the only one who forgets material. And the questions I asked then still apply?

viewtopic.php?p=1595#1595

If this "communications system" of Dr. Browns was already developed as early as the fifties ... why isn't it in use on a daily basis with everybody?

What did the alien life force do, hang up on us?

Trickfox is talking about mutual respect but ya gotta admit when you talk to most people about that THEY think that they are the ultimate authority on life forces. And so, what kind of "respect" do we come to the table with for a different life force? And understanding that, as I am sure that they would given that I believe that they are even smarter than we could hope to be, what kind of respect would be generated toward us by them?

Some of our attitude is a reflection of a religious mindset (dominion over the earth etc) and it just makes it impossible for many to consider that they should worry about another intelligence respecting them.

After all ... its an ego trip here and the only one who reallly counts is the HUMAN, right?

If I was on the "other side" I wonder how I would respond to humans? Guardedly probably! I mean ... what would be the point of trying to interact graciously with us when we cant even do that amongst ourselves?

It scares me when I consider how different organized churches will someday react to another intelligence. Will they assume that it should be "converted"? If thats the case .... are we going to have missionaries in space? For those of you who are into that idea I thank you for the good that you all have done, but what about the bad? The idea of the BAD AGENDAS going out to say cloaked in the phrase "let me tell you about Jesus" makes me quake in my boots.

Maybe not seeing those "ships on the horizon" as in "What the Bleep".... would be better for everybody?

A very interesting thread of thought. I may go quiet for long stretches, but I am watching. grinder "

Sheeze, that seems a century ago but sadly nothing much has changed. So maybe Dr. Brown did find a way to communicate with another intelligence and maybe it did hang up on us! again, grinder
grinder
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