Chapter 26 Submarine Duty S48

[Paul S.]

Jeez, is it really all this confusing?

But I don't understand. You said that he joined the RESERVES as an OFFICER.

Did I say that he joined the reserves as an officer? I thought I'd just said he'd enlisted in the reserve, and would become an officer later. That, at any rate, is what the records show. There are actually two sets of records, one as an enlisted sailor, the other as an officer.

How does that happen? I don't understand how you can be a sailor first class .... and an officer the next?

I'm no authority on military rankings, etc. but it appears that he "enlisted" in the reserve as an apprentice seaman in 1930, and was "commissioned" as an officer in 1933. It's almost as if he "joined" twice at different levels.

And the other thing I don't really understand ... you said earlier BEFORE Townsend Brown went into the Navy as a common sailor but he had made inquiries before joining up as to what it would take to become an officer in the reserves.

Not really. The letter he sent in 1929 sought information about the "Naval reserve... open to citizens who have never been in the Service [and] opportunities...for technicians and scientists." No mention of "officer" in that initial inquiry.

So did he have all this planned from the first?

Don't have a good answer to that one.

Who is calling the shots here, an odd feeling, the Navy? or seaman first class Brown? Please explain , if you can how he managed to end up where he seemed to want to go in the first place. Maybe thats the real question I was meaning to ask.

I see what you're driving at, but I really don't have any more light to shed than what I've already offered. You're right, it all seems odd, impossibly fore-thought. But, that's just how it goes here in the Parallel Universe.

You look in the mirror and for some reason the image is not reversed.

Not much we can do but keep listening to Buffett...

--PS

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

This is an answer to some questions from some other "pools" but they need to be addressed here I think.

I think it was Trickfox who made the (true) statement that in the group picture taken during the S48 cruise that the Captain looked like the Captain but that Townsend Brown looked so young , he resembled Gilligan more! I really laughed at that and appreciated the thought. (Absolutely no offense taken Trickfox) ... I think Townsend Brown would have laughed along with you on that one! He does look so young ... Of course having to stand next to the VERY substantial DR. Meinesz would have made nearly anybody look like a little kid. Seaman first class Brown was 6'1'' .... take a look again at that picture. Dr. Meinesz is a VERY tall and imposing individual.

Which gets me to halfway answering another question posed by Mark, I think. "Just HOW did a single individual manage to "borrow" a US submarine (and hand pick its staff, I add). Well, I am still pondering that one. Apparently though he managed to have that done, Not only with his home countries Navy but with the US AND the Italian Navy.

Forgive me, I had not realized until just now that Italy even HAD a submarine fleet ... so you see ... there is so much more to for me to learn. Gilligan and all! Elizabeth

[Paul S.]

There is a great deal in this thread that I have not caught up with yet, but I was just scanning it and this caught my eye:

I think one of the last boats he saw slide into the water was an experimental sub called (I think) the Seaview .... which had a special double hull for special deep dives and was rumored to have stealth capabilities .....

It seems we're caught in the Moebius (how do you spell that, anyway?) strip again. About two weeks ago, Elizabeth send me this link:

http://www.nimr.org/nelsons_folly.html

...which has some stuff about this "Seaview" of which you speak (not to be confused with the fictional submarine from the TeeVee series "Voyage To The Bottom Of The Sea" -- or, then again, maybe it is...).

Various members of the Brown family recount a story from the mid-70s when a submarine surfaced in Catalina's Avalon Harbor and Dr. Brown went aboard and delivered one of his "instruments." The family recalls the sub being called "Seamount," but there are no records of any such-named sub anywhere. Perhaps it was the "Seaview" ? The sub that surfaced in Catalina allegedly had deep-diving capabilities, too.

Suddenly I wonder... do you think there might have been a connection?

Yes.

Obviously, if the Navy had this technology for that long, maybe we DO have some wondrous subs out there. Its so easy to get captivated by space, when the wonders of the deep hold just as many secrets. Interesting to think about.

I guess my question is -- and I say this at the risk of seeding a line of discussion that has nowhere to go but spinning off into abstract space -- if the Navy does have "wondrous subs out there," is that really all we're talking about here? Or are there also vessels operated by.... somebody or something.... that is not "Navy" ?

The oceans are a pretty big place... if you need someplace to hide.

Anybody see "The Abyss" ?

--PS

[Martin Calloway]

Paul, I suggest there is plenty of room in these wonderful oceans for all manner of things, unknown and unexpected ... but following your lead here on solid framework I need to stay with what I personally do know .. I am not as well rounded as some of my associates. <g>

But lets talk about conventional stuff. Talking to my submarine buddies again. Did you know that in the early fifties the Russians were on a headlong rush to rebuild their navy, expecially their submarine force? While everyone was looking for satellites and missiles and young kids were being shown how to "duck and cover" (remember those? well, you wouldn't .. but I do)

Meanwhile on the other side of the world Russia was producing 60 subs a year. Look it up. 60 a year were sliding into the saltwater. By 1955 they had more subs in operation than the entire German navy had during the war!... Luckily Stalin died in 1953 and the brakes were slammed on ... but all this time the West was paying absolutely no attention to what the Russians were doing then... then things turned desperate. Krushchev took over and the Russian navy turned toward arming their many subs now with nuclear missiles. And people in this country started paying attention.

As I said, I am not a sub man, most of my information comes from an older gentleman who is quite a naval historian. He thought that maybe you could use some of the above information ... to bet a better view of what was happening then. Me, I fly. Martin

[Victoria Steele]

Paul and Elizabeth,

OK I'll leave you guys alone now on the subject of what his rank was , though I am still puzzled over all of that. I have something else to chew on that looks really promising.

Paul, when you wrote about Dr. Meinesz you said "When Dr. Meinesz insisted that someone be appointed who could be trained to take complete charge of such expeditions in the future". And I guess that Townsend Brown was the one that he was most pleased with . (and maybe after being rescued out of the rubbled by that same man, maybe delighted with.)

And Elizabeth had mentioned how strange it was that this single man seemed to have submarines from all over the world doing his bidding , I just sort of blinked mentally. And now Paul just mentioned that a sub showed up at Avalon ... to take Townsend Browns instruments on board?

Isn't that what the different navies were doing for Dr. Meinesz? What is going on here? Forty years later, subs are still showing up for private individuals? ? Lets hear a good rationality for that one please Paul because it doesn't compute for me!

Anybody on Catalina remember a sub visiting the harbor? I have been to Catalina, I can't believe one could get into that harbor ... maybe in, but out would be a neat trick! But you say theBrown family says it happened .... I feel like a doubting Thomas here. You sure Paul that it came IN to the Harbor? Victoria

[George Leach]

Victoria and Paul,

Paul you probably misunderstood about the sub coming INTO the harbor. She moored in the area that was just off the old seaplane ramp ... off of Lovers Cove. I am sure those of you who know Catalina know the area.

Dr. Brown encouraged me to go out on a shoreboat to the sub tender that was sidetied to the sub. No one was allowed actually to go aboard the submarine but it was fun getting that close to her. The "instruments" that Dr. Brown had supplied were taken on board earlier by members of her crew.

I am hoping that there are other Islanders who remember her visit. It was told to us that she was a record holder for deep dives ... and we remembered her name to be the "SeaMount" but of course its been many years and we might have been wrong on that from the first. The exact time is lost too but I do know that it was .... in the mid 1970s.

The "tours" out to the sub tender were sort of a community event so I am hoping that there are other Islanders out there who will remember that sub being there. At the time it was just a fun thing to do on a sunny day, I never thought it would be important to remember any of these details! Help me out here! George

[Trickfox]

At the time it was just a fun thing to do on a sunny day, I never thought it would be important to remember any of these details! Help me out here! George

What an insightful look at events on Catalina in the 70s. You know Avalon is a pretty small area don't you?

(from a Bryan Ferry song)

Now the party's over
I'm so tired
Then I see you comming
out of nowhere
Much communicatuion
In a motion
Without conversation or a notion
Avalon

I'm not sure if the lyrics mean anything in this scenario but I just keep hearing Ferry's beautiful voice singing Avalon, as I envision the submarine poping up out of nowhere in the pacific ocean, perhaps loading or taking on the Meinesz gravity measurement Apparatus or one of Browns special Cellular Gravitators.

Trickfox

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Trickfox,

You may have seen the pictures that Paul posted of Townsend Browns gravesite markers and the bench that he chose to be near ... for the comfort of whomever might visit him on Catalina Island.... and on a nearby wall is this poem by Tennyson .... part of it reads ...."I am going a long way to the Island Valley of Avalon where falls not hail or rain or nay snow nor ever wind blows .........."

So again you and I find ourselves mentally on the same page. Thanks for the lyrics of the other! Elizabeth

[Paul S.]

I think one of the last boats he [Rickover] saw slide into the water was an experimental sub called (I think) the Seaview .... which had a special double hull for special deep dives and was rumored to have stealth capabilities .....

Well now... isn't this an interesting detour down the Rabbit Hole?

Ever since Martin first mentioned the "Seaview" here, you know, we've been treating this like something real and highly classified, and maybe it really is that.

Or maybe we're dealing with one of the great April Fool's jokes of all time.

I knew when we first got into this subject that "Seaview" was the name of the fictional submarine in the movie and TeeVee series "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea." But that was really all I ever knew about the TeeVee show, I never really watched it, nor was I familiar with any of the characters.

So when we started Googling "Seaview" and came up with this page:

http://www.nimr.org/nelsons_folly.html

...we thought we were on to something, a "classified" ("wondrous"?) sub that might have had an even more "secret" (remember, there's 'classified,' and then there's 'secret'...) sister ship, like, maybe one called "Seamount" that visited Catalina in the mid 1970s and took some of Dr. Brown's instruments aboard.

Anyway, following up on this lead, this morning I started wondering about this "Admiral Harriman Nelson," the guy supposedly responsible for the "Seaview," and if maybe I could draw some associations between him and some of the other mystery characters in the Townsend Brown saga.

I started by reading this biography of "Nelson,"

http://www.daffronanddelaney.com/Biogra ... Nelson.htm

but even as I'm reading I'm thinking, "hmmm, this picture sure looks familiar. Well, yeah, dummy, of course it looks familiar, it's a photo of Richard Basehart -- the actor who played the fictional character of "Adrmiral Harriman Nelson" in the "Voyage...." TeeVee series.

So what, is this all some cosmic April Fool's joke? Or is "fiction" being used to disguise acutal fact? Or is that an "either/or" proposition that begs the consideration of other possibilities?

So, Martin, help us out here: When you say that "one of the last boats he [Rickover] saw slide into the water was an experimental sub called (I think) the Seaview," why you are citing, part of the fictional "back story" that somebody has worked up for a TeeVee show.

Do you mean to tell us that something like that actually happened, and has been cleverly disguised as fiction -- "hidden in plain sight," so to speak? Is it possible that what is being offered up here as "fiction" is... actual fact?

I mean, that "fictional" back story really reads like somebody did his homework so, what are we to believe? CIA secret subs and all...

Why would you, Martin, cite this bit of fiction -- in this context -- as something based in fact?

Hmmm??

--PS

[Martin Calloway]

You sound so surprised that one of your research paths would run into a puzzle.<g> and you are asking ME? I was just repeating what an old buddy of mine relayed to me.

I'm a flyer remember. I don't know nothing bout submarines . But I can assure you that this gentleman does and he has recently mentioned to me that some important information has found its way to you through another source and that you probably should pay some attention to it.

Me? Ask me about something to do with planes. I don't do underwater stuff. Martin

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

I just happened to come across this photo of the old S48 and thought that you might like to see the ship that Townsend Brown and a junior grade officer named Rickover sailed together on for a few months.

Note the comment about that style sub not being built like that any more ( for good reason!) I have read elsewhere that this ship was considered the least safe sub in the navy and that she had a very severe tendency to go down too deep, not respond to orders, going past normal operating depths into "crush depths" several times. The Captain brought her into Key West at one point with the comment that she was handling like a "wounded whale." I dreally do believe that seamn Brown was lucky to get out of there with his hide dry.

She is pretty though.

http://www.submarinesailor.com/Classic/classic2.asp Elizabeth

[twigsnapper]

It strikes me that there are some interesting similarities, or better put .... perhaps some interesting "threads" between the old S48, and a wonderful old smokeboat by the name of the " Cutlass".

You mentioned the Cutlass during your presentation in Vegas and I suggest that now is the time to consider revisiting her.

As Dr. Brown is planning his move to Philadelphia and as Nassau is securing a proper facility in that area .... where is the Cutlass?

At some point and at some time during that year I submit that she was given sailing orders also. To Philadelphia, that same summer. She was a ship not unfamiliar with having to operate in the dark. In fact she hosted many covert training operations in her day. She was an amazing ship , as good as the old S48 was poor.

And the odd thread glimmers in the sun. Look the Cutlass up, if you wish. You may be surprised to find mention of a "Project Rainbow".

Suggesting here that discussions about this sub stay in this thread with the old S48.

There are elements and threads there which have not at all disconnected from your story and in fact are presenting a stronger and stronger presence. Now is the time to look again. twigsnapper

[Mikado14]

It strikes me that there are some interesting similarities, or better put .... perhaps some interesting "threads" between the old S48, and a wonderful old smokeboat by the name of the " Cutlass".

You mentioned the Cutlass during your presentation in Vegas and I suggest that now is the time to consider revisiting her.

As Dr. Brown is planning his move to Philadelphia and as Nassau is securing a proper facility in that area .... where is the Cutlass?

At some point and at some time during that year I submit that she was given sailing orders also. To Philadelphia, that same summer. She was a ship not unfamiliar with having to operate in the dark. In fact she hosted many covert training operations in her day. She was an amazing ship , as good as the old S48 was poor.

And the odd thread glimmers in the sun. Look the Cutlass up, if you wish. You may be surprised to find mention of a "Project Rainbow".

Suggesting here that discussions about this sub stay in this thread with the old S48.

There are elements and threads there which have not at all disconnected from your story and in fact are presenting a stronger and stronger presence. Now is the time to look again. twigsnapper

I remembered something from awhile ago and looked it up again. Is this the one of the two WWII subs that are still operational by the ROC? If it is, then there is some missing history going on in her record....particularly in the 60's and early 70's. Care to tell us where she was refitted in the 60's...<g>

FYI Mr. Twigsnapper and Martin : http://www.maam.org/maamwwii.html .... It's a great show

[Martin Calloway]

Mikado,

Is this an event that you plan to attend? Martin

[grinder]

Using the words "Project Rainbow" as a guide and the " Cutlass" I found this which I thought really sort of interesting!

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/shi ... ss478.html

"Cutlass left the Canal Zone 6 January 1948 for local operations at Key West, then entered Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in March for overhaul and modernization. Arriving at Key West 7 February 1949 she served as test submarine for Operation "Rainbow" evaluating color schemes to enhance livability, a serious problem in new submarines with long submergence capability. She continued to sail out of Key West until the summer of 1952 when her home port was changed to Norfolk."

Lets see she was in the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in March of 1948.
Where was Dr. Brown at the time Paul? If I have to wait for your story to spell it out, I understand , but if you can answer ahead too that would be great!

Then she goes to Key West the following year February 1949 and is a "test submarine" for a color chip program? Why don't I think we are not getting the whole story here? And again. It would make it easier if we knew exactly where DR. Brown was. ??????

Then she operated in those waters out of Key West until 1952 when she changed then to Norfolk? And what was happening in Dr. Browns life at the time? I have a feeling that we are going to find correlations here or I don't think Mr. Twigsnapper would have mentioned the sub in the first place.

So those are just some of the questions.I am sure that some of the answers will "bubble to the surface" as someone else on the forum said and didn't Morgan make a reference to that picture of Dr. Brown sitting with his daughter, pointing to the sky. He said that it was typical of him to point to the sky while all the time knowing about such things as fantastic submarines. And you know we are still doing it. Look, look!he points! and we do! UNTIL NOW .....

And then of course there is the other. What is the link between "Project Rainbow" for the Cutlass and what Bill Moore thought of (or was told) regarding this super secret experiment that was going on .... dubbed " Project Rainbow". Whats happening here? SOMETHING CONNECTED!!!! grinder