The Good Shepherd

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
Mikado14
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Re: If you study

Post by Mikado14 »

Paul S. wrote:
Mikado14 wrote:(Would that hypothecation be considered a chess move?)
I think all chess moves are considered an "hypothecation" until your finger is removed from the piece...

Unfortunately, none of us can see Twigsnapper's fingers from here.. :wink:

--PS
I have always been able to visualize my moves in advance. However, most individuals who feel the need to move a piece and keep their finger on the piece, in my opinion, lack visualization skills. I have a tough time visualizing not having the ability to visualize my moves......... :shock: :wink:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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passing suspicions

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Paul,

You asked when Edward Sr. got suspicious of the Allen Phillip Allen character. Remember the party when the gathering included most of the men in question and the General (Wild Bill Donovan/Sullivan) whispered to Edward that Allen had accepted a Chairman position with a certain coffee organization. He didn't say much more than that .... but it was enough ... soon .........Edward met the FBI m"man with the hat" handed him the name , Phillip Allen, asked him to check him out.... and EVENTUALLY when that particular man knew he was dying of cancer he left his hat behind .... which opened the whole can of worms for Edward and like a heat seeking missle he went from one to the other.

In real life, from what I have learned General Donovan and Sir William Stephenson went into business together in coffee, banannas, concrete. You know as well as I do that the indications are thats not all they were doing. But they were officially business partners.And of course they were intelligence gathering. Thats what they did best.

Soon the CIA was just another thing for the Caroline Group to regard carefully. Agendas are agendas. FBI, CIA, the Caroline Group. Sometimes they matched agendas, I believe, and sometimes they didn't.

And the CIA as was noted in the movie was a dangerous situation in the early years when they figured they had no oversight whatsoever. Not entirely sure things have changed all that much. And the question was where is the soul of an orgnization like that?

Flipping back to the film "Enigma" .... where one character said to the other " As long as Claire is out there she is a sword over your head"
I have always had the fancy that that particular line could have meant the "Caroline Group" too, in relationship to the other agencies .... Hopefully there is some sort of compass for good out there. only coffee money thoughts Elizabeth
twigsnapper
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two empty chairs

Post by twigsnapper »

I don't know if she noticed but there was a scene in this movie that was particularly designed for Linda Brown. How could that be possible you ask? Ah, mysteries!

Edward and the new mole are walking together discussing matters. " He plans things years in advance" one is saying to the other .... and parallel to their path at the time are two empty chairs.

I know that Linda Brown noticed them. Would suprise me greatly if she didn't. I just wanted her to know that it , and the dialog at that exact moment, was no accident.

Coming from an old man who has been up all night. Sometimes things need to be said outright. twigsnapper
grinder
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saw it too

Post by grinder »

I saw it too but I don't remember two chairs. This is the kind of movie I think that you have to see twice just to get the stuff that you missed the first time around.

As for the General Sullivan having diabetes,yeah, you are probably right Paul, the diabetes thing was a device for putting him on crutches. From what I have read he had been involved in an auto accident and was on crutches for most of that time, so in a way they got it right I guess.

I wonder how he handled HIS family. Being such an important part of the OSS. If Edward was having his family problems, what was Bill Donovan having to do to protect his family?

And here is the strange thing I noticed. While these other men pushed their family away I get the impression that Townsend Brown just drew his family closer. Linda, at least, what happened with her brother. He is almost never mentioned. I wonder why that was?

Josephines influence was enormous I think, probably because she knew better than the other wives what was really going on. Interesting to look at all of them and see the similarities and how they each handled it.

Struck me that people are only concerned about secrets when they realize that they exist. Somehow Dr. Brown was able to keep his daughter unaware of the secrets swirling around him. Did she ever suspect though? grinder
Radomir
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Post by Radomir »

Mr. twigsnapper wrote:
Ah, what a tangled web. Everybody watching everybody. But nobody seeing the Caroline Group. How could that be?
Humbly hazarding a few thoughts on that point:

First, from the scant amount we've been told about the Caroline Group and the much larger amount we do now know about the named institutional agencies you refer to, we might assume that the Caroline Group stayed invisible because it was playing on an entirely different field (over or under the radar, or off to the side) than the types of things that concerned those other agencies.

Unless I completely misread its character, the Caroline Group did not seem to be engaged, for instance, in any of the following: installing or removing regimes in foreign countries for blatant economic or political advantage; working in the direct service of any specific royal dynasty; dealing in arms or drug production or distribution; slavery; trafficking; or the exploration and exploitation of raw commodity resources such as oil, gas, etc. and would carefully have avoided interfering with any of the organizations that engaged in such activities, or engaged in monitoring and influencing or policing such activities.

From an Aikido standpoint, the safe space is in spiral movements either right up close to, or just outside the immediate sphere of the force you would hope to redirect in a more positive manner.

The Caroline Group sounds as though it was small enough, disciplined enough and focused enough in its purposes to keep its own existence if not completely unknown, then at least appearing innocuous, conventional or inconsequential enough to the games everyone else was playing so that they avoided any direct confrontations. Perhaps there were the occasional slips and skirmishes, but not enough to draw them into the big brawl. All the while they might have kept careful, patient and consistent tabs on the players in that brawl because such intelligence gathering appears to have been part of its founding organizational DNA.

Perhaps it also made some extremely good allies early on, and cultivated others over time, which helped to protect its existence and interests from notice.

The origination and completion of that large shipment of gold fascinates me. That's not an invisble move. That must have taken some doing.

The references to the Rand group involvement with TT Brown in his later life I find troubling. To me this is a signal that the Caroline Group may have been part of the game that was so black that most of what we now consider the previously secret agencies (CIA, NSA, etc.) weren't even allowed to know about it. Hyper-compartmentalized and sequestered. That makes me despair both about the possibility we will ever know anything substantial about that work, and it makes me despair that it is possible for all his good intentions --and possibly despite the good intentions of the Caroline Group--what TT Brown learned has already long been appropriated by less charitable interests. Did the Caroline Group fail or succeed in its purposes it set out to accomplish during TT Brown's time and since then?

I have wondered if the Caroline Group existed before its principals met or learned of TT Brown, and if so what it's original central organizing motivation(s) might have been. Regardless, once TT Brown became part of the group, we will assume that at least part of its binding force, motivation and agenda was to both explore as well as protect what TT Brown was working on.

In the service of what purpose is one question that keeps me awake at night (obviously).

Another is whether a full incarnation of the Caroline Group exists currently, if so in what form, and if so what its agenda is at this point. (Is it one I would devote my life to the way others clearly did? Will I ever get to know?) Is or was there an ecosystem of analogous groups around the world, and if so did they collaborate, and do they still?

We know at least two possibly former members are alive and have essentially blown their cover, for which we thank them. We hope it's not too much of a risk to them personally at this point. We assume that no such move would be made without a clear plan, and one that was thought out many moves in advance.

R.
twigsnapper
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astute

Post by twigsnapper »

Some very astute observations Radomir. Akido movements? Yes possibly. Redirecting the opponents own forces? possibly a good analogy.

I personally remind myself that your words are the words of a horseman when walking around hindquarters. Either stay in so close you can't get kicked or so far away that you are out of range. Anything in between is just looking for trouble. So you may be entirely right about the "Caroline Group".

I don't think I will be revealing too much to say that this "Group" was in existence long before the keel of the Caroline was even laid. It was a good name however for that span of time and for Dr. Browns association. And Paul had to call it something.

One last question about your grandfather. What University was he affiliated with? I don't want you to think that I can give you more information about that particular event, but things occasionally come to my attention.

During those years I was spending time in England and Germany. The one "accident" I remember very strongly was a certain friend of mine who ran afoul of people he shouldn't have. They threw him off a bridge into a canal (not too far from Kevins home). Shouldn't have been that terrible a situation under normal circumstances. It was a low bridge which accomodated the narrowboats. Only problem was that it had been a very hard winter and the canal had frozen solid .... 1947 or 48 I think. dismal, wicked, brutal weather. And ,of course, he landed on his head..

So on that somber note. Just recognizing your excellent post.

And I would ask you. If the call went out, like the call from Bletchley, would there be answers in todays world, everything carefully considered? twigsnapper
Radomir
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Thanks

Post by Radomir »

Thanks for your response, and for your careful setting of expectations. I wasn't expecting that you might know. He was coming from the University of Texas at Austin. There, I've blown my cover.

I should add [next day] I'm sorry to hear about your friend, that's a brutal way to go.

I think I understand why you ask the question again in the way that you are asking it. If I am properly interpreting why you say "everything carefully considered."

Two answers to your question, if you forgive the informality of the expression, your being a former military man I doubt I offend:
--you bet your sweet ass there would be those who would answer.
and
--if you have to ask at this point, then I worry you may be losing faith that there are folks out there right now of many nationalities who are wide awake and who would be both qualified and dedicated enough to make such a commitment and not only accomplish but relish the work if the cause was truly just.

Either that or I'm a mere babe in the woods who has no idea the depth nor ramifications of what I am talking about.

If you mean a call from a specific nation-state--at this point perhaps you're right most having done the analysis might feel there is nothing to be gained with that shadow boxing. "In the service of what greater purpose?" being the important question.

But a call from an effort that might actually accomplish vital and transformative things at this time of so many pending crises, then yes I think you might find many willing candidates.

It would be hard to put out a call and not get noticed by those you'd prefer not to notice. Transparency and social networking analysis being what it is today--and perhaps that's part of what you refer to "everything being carefully considered." A nice trick would be how to accomplish such a call in broad daylight, and appear to be innocuous.

Would a crossword be a good test? I would fail miserably--perhaps something that helped measure many different kinds of intelligence and aptitude might be more apt. But I digress...

Regardless, thanks for asking the question, twice.
LongboardLOVELY
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James Jesus Angleton and Richard Bissell

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

Paul S. wrote: (I have also read that Matt Damon's character, Edward Wilson, is a composite of two CIA officers, James Jesus Angleton and Richard Bissell, but I know nothing of these two gentlemen.)

--PS
I wrote a huge long entry, then when I went back to edit it, I accidently deleted it!

So, Paul, here it is again.

James Jesus Angleton was a tall man (6ft +) but known to walk stooped shoulder. I have a lot of tall friends, and most of them do that. You'll see Matt do that in the movie a lot. But he wasn't that tall. I heard in some scenes he had to appear taller so he was given platform shoes to wear under trousers.
Angleton was IVY league (like our Mr. Wilson) and while at Yale, started a poetry review called Furioso, which published works by such people as TS Eliot, Ezra Pound, and e e cummings. (this put me in mind of our conversations about Tolstoy - artists working in the CG. Also, the poetry thing was played out in the movie as well). He was a chain smoker, and eventually died of lung cancer, the year I graduated from high school.

He was also known as the Orchid Man. He was an avid orchid breeder, and this is interesting to me because of the nature of how orchids perpetuate their kind. As an amateur florist, I find the following quote quite fascinating.

In an interview with a man (Edward Jay Epstein) who is writing a book about Lee Harvey Oswald, Angleton responds to a direct question with facts about orchids:

"The perpetuation of most species of orchids depend on their ability to misrepresent themselves to insects. Having no food to offer the insects, they had to deceive them into landing on them and carrying their pollen to another orchid in the tribe. Orchids are too dispersed in nature to depend on the wind to carry their pollen.

To accomplish this deception, orchids use color, shape and odor to mimic something that attracts insects to their pods of pollen. Some orchids play on the sexual instincts of insects. The tricocerus orchid, for example, so perfectly mimics in three-dimensional the underside of a female fly, downs to the hairs and smell, that they trigger mating response from passing male flies. Seeing what he thinks is a female fly, the male fly swoops down on the orchid, and attempts to have sex with it-- a process called psuedo-copulation. In doing so, the motion causes the fly to hit the pollen pod, which attaches itself to his underside. The fly thus becomes an unwitting carrier. When the fly then passes another tricocerus orchid, and repeat the frustrating process, it pollinate that orchid. "


Clearly, he was referring to not only insects being manipulated through deception but an intelligence service being similarly duped, seduced, provoked, blinded, lured down false trails and used by an enemy.

Wikipedia does a great review of his CIA directorship and CI involvement, including the bit about Nosenko and Oswald.
Oh, and here is Trivial pursuit kind of information: Out of his three children, his two daughters became Sikh, and fluent in many Indian dialects, including Sanskrit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't know as much about Bissell, except that at one time he was President of the Ford Foundation, during which time, he dealt quite often with then DCI Allen Dulles. I remember studying how much crticism this organization suffered for its supposed anti-leftist, anti-globalization thinking and support of CIA activities.
I think I wrote something about "Follow the Money". Much of the Foundation's assets were used by the CIA (though this may be heresay), esp. during the Cold War, especially against then Soviet Union.
I don't remember if it was as President of the Ford Foundation when Bissell was involved in the Marshall Plan, or after he resigned his Presidency and actually took a post with the CIA, under Allen Dulles.

The parts of The Good Shepherd where they were dealing w/ the Bay of Pigs, and negotiating with mafia and developing plans to overthrow Castro, those parts were drawn from Richard Bissell's life.


That's all I have to say. For now. I hope this is useful to you. OR at least interesting 8)

LongboardLOVELY
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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history lessons

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Hi longboardLOVELY! Thanks for the work that you put into that message. Was it MarkC, a teacher by trade? who said that Pauls book should be on every highschool library in the country. And I can see what he meant. Look how much information there is to learn things we never knew!

I found a vibrating thread in your message. You said that two children (daughters?) went on to study Sanskrit. I would venture to say that PERHAPS they also involved themselves somewhat in their fathers line of work.

Isn't it interesting that would happen? And as I recall Beau Kitselmans daughter Suzette (Hi Suzette) volunteered the information that she was a linguist of sorts also, interested in ancient Indian history and Sanskrit.

Perhaps there is a common denominator there somewhere? Elizabeth
Radomir
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Hmn

Post by Radomir »

Just reviewing this thread and realized I still haven't seen the movie. Maybe by now I could just rent it from NetFlix.

Hope everybody had a great Easter weekend.

R.
twigsnapper
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missed a word

Post by twigsnapper »

age is trying to catch up with me. There was a word missing to that reply Radomir. It was " sweet". <g> twigsnapper
Langley
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Re: missed a word

Post by Langley »

The Good Shepherd is a great movie. When I watched it I was very aware I was missing the depth and breadth of it. The one thing I have to contribute to this thread is that I believe most strongly that the Brotherhood so in evidence in the film's portrayal of the CIA and its counterparts is also (IMO) very alive in the Anglo (Aust & British ) military. It is called the Brotherhood of the Rose and is largely confined to the Officer Classes. And I assume it is a backchannel interface for military/non military intelligence actions and implementations.

It appears to me that the science of TT Brown was slewed away from him in the period 61-67, with 64 being a pivotal year. It was gathered up and aspects permitted public airing in a futuristic context. It was credited in that context to other people.

Prior to this, the 47 on flying saucer flap ensured the main popular context into which the knowledge would be placed by ordinary people would be that of UFOs.

However, I cannot for the life of me see the excitement in circular winged aircraft. With conventional propulsion. Seems to me the main point of the excersize was to foster then discredit the idea of UFOs. A cover. A frisbee with jet engines.

At the time of the Bay of Pigs or there abouts, a proposal was written within the US military. This proposal Northwood or something like that put forth the idea that the American people would support a full scale invasion of Cuba if Cuba carried out an attack on a US target. The proposal therefore was for the US to attack a US naval target (no people on board) and blame the Cubans for it.

Im sure somewhere in the Good Shepherd this idea is portrayed, but subtly, I will have to watch it again.

The Good Shepherd is one who keeps the flock safe and together and one who rejoices when that which is lost is found.

The Good Shepherd is one who appears vulnerable and harmless in order to distract any threat from that which is the real object of protection.

And in that context Dr Brown was a Good Shepherd.

(Ive just been distracted by the arrival of the post. A package from England has arrived. M B's "C of N M, 1600 - 1989" . Im over the moon. Thanks Geoff, and happy unbirthday to you too!!)
Anyway, where was I. Oh yea, shuffle the originators name, esp where research is still being orginated. Shuffle the dates and dont deploy it openly until its date of peak advantage is passed.

Teflon is small beer.

And I bet in the Good Shepherd movie theres a dose of time shuffling which is one of the complications which keep those not in the know out of the know.

That might be a bit of ramble, but its the best I can do apart from an example.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 03,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Electric_Drive
QED indeed.

Now that wiki page has a link to the Office of Naval Research site re QED. And guess what? The link has been killed.

The major contractor sites list QED as a program related to quiet operation of electrontric switches. But wiki has a link to MHD.

If the B2 was a sub, how much drag reduction would its plasma sheath provide? And we know MHD is a rudimentary application which with a more sophisticated understanding provides for a more complex application of a related but different principle.

UNCLASSIFIED FY 2006/2007 RDT&E,N BUDGET ITEM JUSTIFICATION SHEET DATE: Feb 2005 Exhibit R-2a BUDGET ACTIVITY: 03 PROGRAM ELEMENT: 0603123N PROGRAM ELEMENT TITLE: FORCE PROTECTION ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY PROJECT NUMBER: R2912 PROJECT TITLE: FORCE PROTECTION ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY funding will be invested in development of electromagnetic gun technology. FY 2004 Accomplishments: • Continued development of advanced main propulsion superconducting motor. • Continued development of advanced power electronics for Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) and ship main propulsion systems. • Continued development of diesel fuel reforming technology for molten carbonate and fuel cells. • Continued development of Quiet Electric Drive (QED)/secondary propulsion unit (SPU).

Source: DTIC:
5. mso158.doc
...SUPERCONDUCTOR (HTS) ELECTRIC MOTOR 5,783 3,467...Battlefield Power; and Quiet Drives and Ship Fuel Cell Systems...development of Quiet Electric Drive (QED)/secondary propulsion unit...Complete Quiet Electric Drive/submarine secondary...
http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y200 ... 03123N.pdf
- 66.205k - 03/08/2007 - Similiar pages

(Scratches head. The concept of the Good Shepherd in actuality is way too deep for me. )

China's navy "is supportive of the re-taking of Taiwan (and) the chief impediment to retaking Taiwan is the 7th fleet of the US Navy," Staples said as the trial got underway.

The Chinese navy particularly needs to be able to find US submarines, he said. "And that is why the Quiet Electric Drive is important."

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_kmafp/is_200703/ai_n18772407

Confusion as a weapon of war I guess.

MHD : Take a Walk on the Quiet Side, chapter, page 114
Submarine Technology of the 21st Century
google book,
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=fGw ... Y_FE&hl=en

Stewart Way, 1960s, UC Santa Barbara. Cites H Lorenz 19th century
cites 1988 V.W. Adams, London Undersea Defence Conference.

Meng, US Navy Underwater Systems Centre, proposes use of a 12 Telsa magnet.


DARPA with Textron Defence Systems Navy's David Taylor Research Lab

1992, Daniel Swallow, David Taylor lab, states "The marriage of MHD
propulsion systems to underwater vessels is a natural".


But this is not the pinnacle of the TT Brown technologies. IMO.

Project Falcon has a Project Dolphin?

"Let them make coils"
Last edited by Langley on Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mark Culpepper
The Dean
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NOFORN?

Post by Mark Culpepper »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Electric_Drive

No foreign Nationals indeed. They should have just bought them a couple of tickets to " The Hunt for Red October" or talked to Clancy about where he got HIS information ... lets see .... how old is that movie?

The fact that someone is tried right now for swiping material simply marked Noforn when it actually should have been top secret just spells to me that someone wanted that information out there in the public so that it would " bubble to the surface".

Now its hiding under MHD. No moving parts. ..... wanna bet there is something else out there that would curl your toes back in excitement and its the next step up, for sure. Forty years ahead of our knowledge, at least. MarkC.
Langley
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Re: NOFORN?

Post by Langley »

Mark Culpepper wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Electric_Drive

No foreign Nationals indeed. They should have just bought them a couple of tickets to " The Hunt for Red October" or talked to Clancy about where he got HIS information ... lets see .... how old is that movie?

The fact that someone is tried right now for swiping material simply marked Noforn when it actually should have been top secret just spells to me that someone wanted that information out there in the public so that it would " bubble to the surface".

Now its hiding under MHD. No moving parts. ..... wanna bet there is something else out there that would curl your toes back in excitement and its the next step up, for sure. Forty years ahead of our knowledge, at least. MarkC.
Absolutely Mark, IMO.

Meanwhile,
Out in the backwoods of a large communist country, 10,000 workers hand paint lacquer insulation onto 2,000 miles of copper wire in an attempt to produce a 12 Tesla electromagnet for a top secret Asian MHD submarine.

Which is obselete before they start!
Locked