The dreaded UFO topic

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Jan Lundquist
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The dreaded UFO topic

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If talking about Townsend is like wrestling an octopus, the UFO arm is the one with the largest muscles, as it gets the most workout. That darned NICAP.

Association secretary, Rose Hackett, forwarded UFO reports to Brown after he "left" NICAP and Townsend had Linda pull out the ones that observers described as moving like a falling leaf. Those, he told her, would be "ours."

What do the facts on the ground tell us? The U2 spy plane was flying then. From Wiki:
The Lockheed U-2, nicknamed "Dragon Lady", is an American single-jet engine, high altitude reconnaissance aircraft operated by the United States Air Force (USAF) and previously flown by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). It provides day and night, high-altitude (70,000 feet, 21,300 meters), all-weather intelligence gathering.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2

Because they traveled so high and fast, the planes needed an exceptionally long descent in order to land, one that took them across the entire continental United States. The design of the plane made it unstable at lower altitudes, causing at least three accidents during the test flight program. giving rise to the U2 pilots' maxim "You' have to fight the dragon if you want to dance with the lady."

Were these planes the 'ours' that Townsend had in mind? As far as I know, he never exhibited any interest in UFOs after this period of time, but the lore surrounding him is that he was involved in the reverse engineering of crashed UFO's. That subject is better addressed in a different post
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Re: The dreaded UFO topic

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Re: The dreaded UFO topic

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Sorrry for the crappy link:

Try this:

Hitler's flying saucers : a guide to German flying discs of the Second World War


Author:Henry Stevens

Summary:"Learn why the Schriever-Habermohl project was actually two projects and read the written statement of a German test pilot who actually flew one of these saucers; about the Leduc engine, the key to Dr. Miethe's saucer designs; how U.S. government officials kept the truth about foo fighters hidden for almost sixty years and how they were finally forced to "come clean" about the foo fighters̕ German origin. Learn of the Peenemünde saucer project and how it was slated to "go atomic." Read the testimony of a German eyewitness who saw "magnetic discs." Read the U.S. governments̕ own reports on German field propulsion saucers. Read how the post-war German KM-2 field propulsion "rocket" worked. Learn details of the work of Karl Schappeller and Viktor Schauberger. Learn how their ideas figure in the quest to build field propulsion flying discs. Find out what happened to this technology after the war. Find out how the Canadians got saucer technology directly from the SS. Find out about the surviving "Third Power" of former Nazis. Learn of the U.S. governments̕ methods of UFO deception and how they used the German "Sonderbueroll" as the model for Project Blue Book"-


TLDR summary from one reviewer:
What the author proves, in my opinion, is that the Germans did work on various flying disk designs during the period of the Third Reich. A few, quite probably, were constructed as prototypes, but none, except perhaps the 'foo fighters' were ever operational. Naturally, at war's end, the Allies did everything they could to seize German technologies and the scientists behind them, keeping as much as they found profitable secret. What the author does not prove are a host of greater claims as regards flying disk performance (above the speed of sound? beyond the atmosphere?)and mechanism (antigravity? nuclear?), claims which are much less well documented. The strength of the book is the obvious expertise of its author. He is on top of literature and references all claims without committing himself to the less well substantiated ones. The weaknesses of the book include, on the one hand, poor editing--errors that spellcheckers miss abound, and, on the other hand, the author's apparent insufficient understanding of physics--or, at least, inability to clearly explain the relevant science. Still, as author Stevens points out, there are clearly UFOs, flying disks, out there, seen by millions throughout the world since WWII. While the extraterrestial hypothesis seems most popular, it remains unsubstantiated. Meanwhile, we know about German flying disk work and should pay heed to more terrestrial explanations of the phenomena.
https://www.worldcat.org/title/51731940#goodreads

The underlining is mine.
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Re: The dreaded UFO topic German KM2 rocket

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I have downloaded the entire pdf Stevens' book, mentioned above and will post pages from it below. The author claims that multiple German saucer research project spin offs included flying wings, UAV, turbojets, and a "Flying Mantis" test plane flown and photographed in Arizona in 1947. I will post other pages of the book later, but for now, this one about the KM-2 rocket, which almost an aside to the main document, might be of interest to Brown Hounds, everywhere:

StevensKM2Rocket1.png
StevensKM2rocket2.png
StevensKM2rocket3.png
cont. next message
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Re: The dreaded UFO topic KM2, cont

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At this point the author gives the standard explanation of the Biefield Brown effect before returning to his subject.
StevensKM2Rocket4.png
StevensKM2Rocket4.png
Beluzzo, mentioned in the last paragraph, was Mussolini's minister for science, and a noted experted in steam turbine technology.. If that sounds somewhat familiar, it is because Steam Turbines were Townsend's responsibility for the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard, which would subsequently host NRL's thermal diffusion research process for Uranium extraction.
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Paul Schatzkin
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Re: The dreaded UFO topic

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Jan Lundquist wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:11 pm If talking about Townsend is like wrestling an octopus, the UFO arm is the one with the largest muscles, as it gets the most workout. That darned NICAP.
With apologies, Jan, I did not even see this thread until you brought it back to the top with this most recent post.

I love the description of 'wrestling with an octopus.' Yup.

It's funny, I guess, the tentacles I've had to choose not to wrestle with. Yes, UFOs is one of them, though the NICAP chapter is unavoidable. Or the whimsical chapter about 'UFOs in the Bible.'

And I'm sure to get some criticism about another one of the muscular tentacles I've avoided, namely 'The Philadelphia Experiment' (aka 'TPX'). Brown has been associated with that primarily through the writings of one William Moore. At some point I will publish as much as I can of the interview I had with Moore back in the 'aughts. He wouldn't let me record it, but I made copious notes during and after. I'll post all that after I get the book out.

In the meantime, re TPX, suffice it to say that none of the material I found during the course of my research inferred any such association. The only reference to TPX in the new book comes in the later chapters, when the Browns all return to Philadelphia. Twigsnapper (O'Riley) said something to the effect that 'it was not the Eldridge (the ship in TPX lore), "it was the good old Cutlass" – a diesel submarine that was in port during the period when Brown was fussing about with Decker on the hill in Bala Cynwyd.

So nothing about TPX in my book.

Nor another tentacle dealing with TTB's sexuality (alleged reason for dismissal from the Navy in 1942) or his propensity for, umm... sunbathing in the altogether. Perhaps those threads will be addressed in an online appendix I'll post once the book gets into circulation.

Which will be any day now...

--P
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Re: The dreaded UFO topic: Otto Erb

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Or was it plutonium they were extracting for next stage refinement? No matter. Townsend was on the west coast by the time the fatal Philly shipyard accident occurred. So back to Stevens. He believes that at least one German scientist, George Otto Erb was on the field propulsion trail.
StevensOttoErb3.png
Stevens points to item X, development of a a rear thrusting implosion engine as partial evidence for his conclusion.

Erb is another one of those names that appear to be almost lost in history. Apparently, in the immediate post war period, the allies were interested only in his work on detonators for proximity fuses:

Interrogation of Dr. George Otto Erb: Maria Veen A 5660 Near Coesfeld Electrical Detonators-types of Fuzes By D. Carmichael · 1945
https://www.google.com/books/edition/In ... nUAC?hl=en

I find for him mentioned again in a rocketry forum:

Small but significant WWII German tech for V1 & V2 Thread starter Winston Start date Sep 27, 2014
Just discovered this today. Thermal batteries are used in all kinds of modern weapon systems. From Wikipedia:

Referred to as thermal batteries, the electrolyte is solid and inactive at normal ambient temperatures. The origin of the thermal battery dates back to WWII when German scientist Dr. Ing. Georg Otto Erb developed the first practical cells, using a salt mixture as an electrolyte. Erb developed batteries for several military applications, including the V-1 flying bomb and the V-2 rocket, and artillery fuzing systems. None of these batteries entered field use before the end of WWII. After the war, Erb was interrogated by British intelligence and his work was reported in a document titled "The Theory and Practice of Thermal Cells". This information was subsequently passed on to the United States Ordnance Development Division of the National Bureau of Standards.[4]
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/s ... -v2.69949/

And one more, time, though if this is the same Otto Erb, he would have been getting on in years by 2003


Eddy currents and electrical surface charges
Eckhard Baum, Otto Erb
International Journal of Numerical Modelling: Electronic Networks, Devices and Fields Volume 16, Issue 3
First published: 13 March 2003
Abstract

In eddy current calculations, the displacement current in the non-conducting space surrounding the eddy current region is usually neglected. This assumption enforces that the electric charge density and the accompanying normal components of the eddy current density on the surface of the eddy current region must vanish.

If the field exiting source currents are not accompanied by charges this assumption may yield acceptable results for the eddy current distribution. However, if the field exiting source currents are accompanied by charges, this assumption may lead to totally wrong results for the current distribution in the eddy current region. An example is given which makes plain this point.

To obtain correct results it is not necessary to employ the full set of Maxwell's equations capable to describe wave propagation phenomena also outside the eddy current region. It is shown in the paper that by replacing the displacement current density in the field describing equations by a specifically chosen current density function makes it possible to determine eddy currents and surface charges within the quasi-stationary calculation scheme for arbitrary field exciting source currents which may or may not be accompanied by charges. The solution obtained in this way is shown to be unique. Copyright © 2003 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ab ... 02/jnm.489

And thus ends the Otto Erb trail. (though I incidentally learned about Otto engines before I used up today's allotted brain bandwidth.)

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Re: The dreaded UFO topic

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Paul, I have some more to add to the PX thread in the Rose Files, but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

Very good news about the book. If you are looking for an Amazon reviewer, I'm in.
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Re: The dreaded UFO topic Otto Engines, btw

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The Otto Enginem if you wish to know.
The Otto engine was a large stationary single-cylinder internal combustion four-stroke engine designed by the German Nicolaus Otto. It was a low-RPM machine, and only fired every other stroke due to the Otto cycle, also designed by Otto.

By 1876 Otto and Langen succeeded in creating the first internal combustion engine that compressed the fuel mixture prior to combustion for far higher efficiency than any engine created to this time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_engine

We have come a long way from that to this:

Power of a Quasispin Quantum Otto Engine at Negative Effective Spin Temperature
https://journals.aps.org/prxquantum/abs ... m.3.040334
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Re: The dreaded UFO topic: Field Propulsion

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ERB, by the way, refers to Equivalent Rectangular bandwidth, or, possibly, Extended Rectangular Bandwidth, and is used for "pyschoacoustical" engineering. (Oh, the things we learn while digging through ancient history!)

Returning to Stevens' hypothesis:

As additional evidence that the Germans were on the trail of field propulsion, he presents the [reportedly] eyewitness accounts of a German pilot who saw saucer shaped crafts in a hangar on an airfield bereft of the standard equipment for aircraft fueling and refueling (p.142) and
a former Polish POW, who was inspired to tell this story after seeing the 1957 reports of flying saucers causing automobile engines to stall (p.154):
StevensPOWreport.png
Though this was of no particular interest to the FBI agents who interviewed this POW, the individual also reported that he made a surreptitious observation of the area behind the tarpaulin screen:
StevensPOW2.png
This, to me, points back to Townsend in Hawaii. It was through researching electroculture in the Before Times that I came to the TTB forum. At that time, there were only two sources of information on the subject and Townsend was credited with inventing it. Now many people are using it and writing about it, but his contribution is seldom mentioned.


Electroculture means placing copper wire though out a garden for the plant benefits that come from capturing the ambient "magnetism" in the air.

Hypothetically, if I wanted to experiment with ambient magnetism on a large scale in 1947, I couldn't have found a more remote and isolated test bed than the farthest west Island in the Hawaiian chain. And, should I need a place to put my 15000 w. generators & lights for some of those experiments, I might barter with a sugar cane grower, who, being knowledgeable in the photo period for tasseling, would see how the arrangement could be used to his benefit.

I have a feeling that electroculture may have been Townsend's ashtray product, the for public consumption part of whatever he was really doing with radar and millions of miles of open ocean for testing missiles and rockets.
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Re: The dreaded UFO topic KM2, cont

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Jan Lundquist wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:47 pm At this point the author gives the standard explanation of the Biefield Brown effect before returning to his subject.
Hi Jan,

You posted page 135 here... can you put 134 up, too?

I know I could download the whole thing and I suppose some day I will, but in the meantime I'd just like to see how the subject of the 'Biefeld Brown Effect' first enters the narrative (before it gets brushed aside after the first paragraph on 135).

Yes, it is a pretty 'standard explanation' of BBE, except I don't recall seeing any previous speculation that the idea might have started in Germany and been passed on the TTB (or, for that matter, vice-versa).

-P
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"We will just sail away from the Earth, as easily as this boat pushed away from the dock" - TTB
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From Stevens to Gunnson and the Bell as a Breeder reactor

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Paul, will do, shortly. As it turns out, the author is quite enamored by two ideas: the Germans did it first,whatever it may have been, and Townsend Brown had a grasp on it.

But, before leaving the German Saucer topic, it is worth noting that an ATS poster named Sy Gunnson posted another possible explanation for the purpose of the Nazi Bell.

Nazi Bell was a Urainium 233 breeder
https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread459969/pg1

He says there were multiple thorium based breeders in use for different wtrategic weapons programs. At the end of the war, the ALSOS team grabbed one of them. They also took the documentation set from another and left the device behind for the French.

i point this out because France did not officially join the nuclear age until 1956, when the first reactor to come on line produced a "small' amount of electricity. Reactors 2 and 3 geared up shortly thereafter.

If Gunnson, is correct, were the French were able to re-engimeer their Bell, as part of their leap into the nuclear age? If not, what happened to their device?

For Gunnson's evidence that the Germans were engaged in particle accelerator research as early as 1933, see his post on Mar, 4 2012 @ 10:30 AM, on page 2 of the linked thread. Paul, you will like his concluding line: A good source to read is "Fusion: the search for endless energy," by Robin Herman, page 40
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Stevens, page 134, as requested

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StevensP134.png
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Re: The dreaded UFO topic

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Yeah, that's an important page. I can see now I'll have to spend some time with the whole doc. A-downloading I shall go.

You know, part of what makes all of this so opaque is that there are two angles to look at it from.

Angle one is that much of the TTB story is a form of subterfuge / camouflage for something else entirely. That all flows from the 'Wounded Prairie Chicken Routine (now Chapter 63, 'Mortal Wounded')

The other angle is that... yes, everything that Brown is alleged to have discovered... is real and tucked away somewhere.

What Stevens seems to be saying is that there could be some truth to Door Number 2. He puts it altogether with the Flame Jet Generator.

And, ultimately.... some sort of direct electric output from a fusion device.

Maybe.

--P

P.S. Don't start me with 'The Bell' (well, not yet anyway). Remember, that's the origin of the whole 'FTM' business... 'Marckus'* telling Cook they "they were building a Fucking Time Machine." Some kind of breeder reactor seems more plausible. Then there's the idea that the Germans had already gone beyond developing a simple 'fission' device and were on to something... much more diabolical (also according to 'Marckus').

*Also, not coincidental that that the name 'Marckus' begins with the same letter as another code-named character.
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Re: The dreaded UFO topic

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Paul, you will enjoy the Stevens book. He is a big fan of Townsends. In his narrative he has Biefied acting as the conduit between him and the Swiss/German scientific community.

Gunnson, on the other hand, isn't having it with any anti-gravity shinola. He is hard on the particle accelerator trail which this feels much truthier to me.) His explanation for where the Nick Cook (I think) version of the time machine story came from is that as a child Greg Rowe overheard it used in reference to a Cern lens which enabled the researchers to see into the past, presumable of a particle event.

It is easier for me to plod along at ground level, checking what can be checked, verifying what I can where I can, than to tackle FTMs

We humans are, Time Machines in our own right, traveling in time through dreams and in precognitive moments and reveries of the past. I am certain neurologists can pinpoint where those are happening in the brain, but to us they can be very real. I also believe certain field effects can trigger any of those brain activities. That's as close as I want to get to that subject.
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