Trickfox, Oh, well said.
And to Linda. My dear. A favorite song is ringing constantly in my ears and I hope that you hear it too.
Sail away, Sail away, Sail away. (And don't look back.)
twigsnapper
WE all left the rabbit hole
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twigsnapper
- Revered Elder
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Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Trickfox,
Thanks for the condensed history and explanation! I have purchased the book and am in the process of reading it. There is so much information here on the forum that it would take me a llooonnnggg time to read it all. What a fascinating story. Do you mean to tell me that after all these years have passed that it hasn't been tested in a vacuum? Are there insurmountable technical obstacles or is it a matter of resources?
Linda Brown,
I chose that name because I enjoy the pyramids and the Giza pyramid complex is constructed in the form of Orion. When the pharaoh's soul left his body he would arise to the heavens and become a star.
http://doernenburg.alien.de/alternativ/ ... ri00_e.php
Orion
Thanks for the condensed history and explanation! I have purchased the book and am in the process of reading it. There is so much information here on the forum that it would take me a llooonnnggg time to read it all. What a fascinating story. Do you mean to tell me that after all these years have passed that it hasn't been tested in a vacuum? Are there insurmountable technical obstacles or is it a matter of resources?
Linda Brown,
I chose that name because I enjoy the pyramids and the Giza pyramid complex is constructed in the form of Orion. When the pharaoh's soul left his body he would arise to the heavens and become a star.
http://doernenburg.alien.de/alternativ/ ... ri00_e.php
Orion
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Trickfox
- The Magician
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Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Orion
It's been tested and confirmed several times. Honda Laboratories have recently repeated the experiments.
See: http://www.ssrsi.org/Onsite/PDFbin/Bief ... Effect.pdf (thank you Geoff)
There is no problem demonstrating the effect. There is only a problem with explaining the results in term of "empirical proof" (mathematical consistency). The experiments seem to indicate that our most cherished empirical definitions of "the Coulomb force" and "Newtonian physics" is wrong somehow. Rather than throw out hundreds of years worth of mathematical consistency, most scientist would rather claim that the physics behind all this is "yet to be explained" (in terms of empirical proof). Of course many of us believe this has been done but the results were classified into a section we call BLACK PROJECTS. Others claim that this is just a wild goose chase supported by conspiracy theories. Those that say it's just "fiction" have alterior motives and are often reluctant to dismiss long held notions about Newtonian Physics and the Coulomb law. The more classic your education is and the more knowledgeable you are about these classical laws, the more you have a tendancy to resist the conclusions implied by witnessing the impossible experimental result of the Beifeld/Brown force. This was demontrated rather dramatically when the great Dr. Edward Teller saw the demonstration of the Beifeld/Brown force for the first time. That was in the book as you will no doubt recall.
Like you perhaps, I'm not going to pick sides. I will simply examine the test results and try and come up with an explanation using whatever new ideas I can come up with. At least I have a "mystery force" to work with. I'd rather be stuck with explaining how a mystery force works rather than trying to "invent" a new kind of "energy force" like the proponents of "fusor technology" are trying to do.
Trickfox
It's been tested and confirmed several times. Honda Laboratories have recently repeated the experiments.
See: http://www.ssrsi.org/Onsite/PDFbin/Bief ... Effect.pdf (thank you Geoff)
There is no problem demonstrating the effect. There is only a problem with explaining the results in term of "empirical proof" (mathematical consistency). The experiments seem to indicate that our most cherished empirical definitions of "the Coulomb force" and "Newtonian physics" is wrong somehow. Rather than throw out hundreds of years worth of mathematical consistency, most scientist would rather claim that the physics behind all this is "yet to be explained" (in terms of empirical proof). Of course many of us believe this has been done but the results were classified into a section we call BLACK PROJECTS. Others claim that this is just a wild goose chase supported by conspiracy theories. Those that say it's just "fiction" have alterior motives and are often reluctant to dismiss long held notions about Newtonian Physics and the Coulomb law. The more classic your education is and the more knowledgeable you are about these classical laws, the more you have a tendancy to resist the conclusions implied by witnessing the impossible experimental result of the Beifeld/Brown force. This was demontrated rather dramatically when the great Dr. Edward Teller saw the demonstration of the Beifeld/Brown force for the first time. That was in the book as you will no doubt recall.
Like you perhaps, I'm not going to pick sides. I will simply examine the test results and try and come up with an explanation using whatever new ideas I can come up with. At least I have a "mystery force" to work with. I'd rather be stuck with explaining how a mystery force works rather than trying to "invent" a new kind of "energy force" like the proponents of "fusor technology" are trying to do.
Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
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FM No Static At All
- Senior Officer
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Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Mr. Trickfox,
While I agree that throwing out physics based on Newton and Coulomb is not a good place to start when offering a "new" scientific" theory, I have learned that rather than look at it as an "either/or" possibility, the answer may lie in that fact that there is more "out there" than what the prominent theories indicate when using that empirical knowledge.
Try this on for size: There is no such thing as anti-gravity, period. So what other "forces" are not yet known or explained by classic physics?
I sense a disturbance in the force!
While I agree that throwing out physics based on Newton and Coulomb is not a good place to start when offering a "new" scientific" theory, I have learned that rather than look at it as an "either/or" possibility, the answer may lie in that fact that there is more "out there" than what the prominent theories indicate when using that empirical knowledge.
Try this on for size: There is no such thing as anti-gravity, period. So what other "forces" are not yet known or explained by classic physics?
I sense a disturbance in the force!
Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Trickfox,
Wow what a mysterious story. I have been reading a little more and saw a reference to a guy named Hull. He seems to have had a major impact on this whole situation and I did a google on him but I want to make sure I am reading the right information. Would you please have any links that have information related to this story and his research and part in it? If this has been verified by modern methods then why is there this split? I have to admit I am confused here what is going on?
Orion
Wow what a mysterious story. I have been reading a little more and saw a reference to a guy named Hull. He seems to have had a major impact on this whole situation and I did a google on him but I want to make sure I am reading the right information. Would you please have any links that have information related to this story and his research and part in it? If this has been verified by modern methods then why is there this split? I have to admit I am confused here what is going on?
Orion
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Trickfox
- The Magician
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Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Orion
If you want more information about Hull, I'm afraid you will have to find it yourself. Look it up at the "Fusor forum" . Here is hint. That forum is hosted by Paul Shatzkin who wrote the book you are now reading. I personally harbor no ill will towards the man (Hull). In fact I will admit that Hull probably understands Physics and Math better than I do (who knows). I just think (allthough I'm not really sure) that he has his own agenda, -and challenging the Coulomb Law or Neutonian Physics may not be in his plans at the moment. Paul himself is probably just stuck in the middle and trying to sort-out fact from fiction. Time will tell about his decision to drop the ball and let the unfinished e-book you are reading be his final contribution. He may regret that decision some day in the future, but for now let's just wish him well.
Trickfox
If you want more information about Hull, I'm afraid you will have to find it yourself. Look it up at the "Fusor forum" . Here is hint. That forum is hosted by Paul Shatzkin who wrote the book you are now reading. I personally harbor no ill will towards the man (Hull). In fact I will admit that Hull probably understands Physics and Math better than I do (who knows). I just think (allthough I'm not really sure) that he has his own agenda, -and challenging the Coulomb Law or Neutonian Physics may not be in his plans at the moment. Paul himself is probably just stuck in the middle and trying to sort-out fact from fiction. Time will tell about his decision to drop the ball and let the unfinished e-book you are reading be his final contribution. He may regret that decision some day in the future, but for now let's just wish him well.
Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Trickfox,
I have looked into the fusor forum and while it is very interesting I was wondering if there is something that he has published to the web that demonstrates a case against the
work of TT Brown? I see conflicting statements being made and I am trying to ferret out some specific pieces of evidence that could clear this up for me. Thankyou very much for your help.
Orion
I have looked into the fusor forum and while it is very interesting I was wondering if there is something that he has published to the web that demonstrates a case against the
work of TT Brown? I see conflicting statements being made and I am trying to ferret out some specific pieces of evidence that could clear this up for me. Thankyou very much for your help.
Orion
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Trickfox
- The Magician
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Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Orion
I see don't see any conflicting statements whatsoever, but then I'm not looking very hard at the fusor forum either. What is your interpretation on all this Orion? Are you saying that some of the fusor forum members seem to think that T.T. Brown's work is worthless? You are the one who brought up Hull, I never mentioned anything about this man, and I don't really know enough about him personally to comment on the validity of his work. Even if I felt he was wrong about any specific area of math or physics, I would not confront him in a public forum, I would have a private discussion with him to see where and how the objective truth can be shared about any scientific issue. If he is open and honest then I would respect him and we could probably work out the empirical scientific truth together in private first. That is the right way to do it. A decent person does not go around telling third parties that someone else's work is "wortless giberish". I've learned that the hard way. I used to do that until I discovered that I was wrong myself. Sometimes things are not capable of being judged as either Black or white.
The only issue I've been pointing out is the often taken position that the classic foundation of Newtonian Physics, Coulomb and Maxwell theories are seldom ever challenged by the vast majority of reseachers. I then pointed out the difference between solving the mystery behind an existing force and trying to come up with a new force altogether.
You may interpret what you see and hear with your own senses Orion.
Can we move on to something other than conflict and controversy now?
Trickfox
I see don't see any conflicting statements whatsoever, but then I'm not looking very hard at the fusor forum either. What is your interpretation on all this Orion? Are you saying that some of the fusor forum members seem to think that T.T. Brown's work is worthless? You are the one who brought up Hull, I never mentioned anything about this man, and I don't really know enough about him personally to comment on the validity of his work. Even if I felt he was wrong about any specific area of math or physics, I would not confront him in a public forum, I would have a private discussion with him to see where and how the objective truth can be shared about any scientific issue. If he is open and honest then I would respect him and we could probably work out the empirical scientific truth together in private first. That is the right way to do it. A decent person does not go around telling third parties that someone else's work is "wortless giberish". I've learned that the hard way. I used to do that until I discovered that I was wrong myself. Sometimes things are not capable of being judged as either Black or white.
The only issue I've been pointing out is the often taken position that the classic foundation of Newtonian Physics, Coulomb and Maxwell theories are seldom ever challenged by the vast majority of reseachers. I then pointed out the difference between solving the mystery behind an existing force and trying to come up with a new force altogether.
You may interpret what you see and hear with your own senses Orion.
Can we move on to something other than conflict and controversy now?
Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Trickfox,
I am sorry but you have misunderstood. I see one side saying that TT Brown is valid, and I see a lot of information on the web about him, but I have read the info stating that this Hull guy has some convincing proof or was of major influence and I just wanted to know what and where it was so I could better understand what the cause of this split in the forum and this epic fail and such is about. I really am confused and just trying to understand. I am just new to this and this is what I see initially and I was just trying to understand this whole thing. I am sorry if I have offended.
Orion
I am sorry but you have misunderstood. I see one side saying that TT Brown is valid, and I see a lot of information on the web about him, but I have read the info stating that this Hull guy has some convincing proof or was of major influence and I just wanted to know what and where it was so I could better understand what the cause of this split in the forum and this epic fail and such is about. I really am confused and just trying to understand. I am just new to this and this is what I see initially and I was just trying to understand this whole thing. I am sorry if I have offended.
Orion
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Trickfox
- The Magician
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Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Orion
I'm not at all offended, just a bit confused about your questions. Perhaps you should just read the whole story and all the posts carefully, and the answers you seek will come to you. Whatever you do... don't give up on any sort of quest for knowledge and clarification. Get everyone's opinion including anything originating from the most nonesensical discordian sources before comming to any conclusions. You would be surprized by knowledge originating from chaotic navigators of the invisible relm.
One thing however... do try to be honest and avoid playing "secret squirl" with anyone. I've learned that "this forum element" which I call "pussy-footing" is sometimes anoying but often necessary to protect the identity of certain individuals. If you feel confident enough to share your true identity with SOME other forum members, go ahead and do so in private messages, and you will find a growing sense of connection with us as a group.
Trickfox
I'm not at all offended, just a bit confused about your questions. Perhaps you should just read the whole story and all the posts carefully, and the answers you seek will come to you. Whatever you do... don't give up on any sort of quest for knowledge and clarification. Get everyone's opinion including anything originating from the most nonesensical discordian sources before comming to any conclusions. You would be surprized by knowledge originating from chaotic navigators of the invisible relm.
One thing however... do try to be honest and avoid playing "secret squirl" with anyone. I've learned that "this forum element" which I call "pussy-footing" is sometimes anoying but often necessary to protect the identity of certain individuals. If you feel confident enough to share your true identity with SOME other forum members, go ahead and do so in private messages, and you will find a growing sense of connection with us as a group.
Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
How about posting a link to this..."convincing" proof.Orion wrote:Trickfox,
I am sorry but you have misunderstood. I see one side saying that TT Brown is valid, and I see a lot of information on the web about him, but I have read the info stating that this Hull guy has some convincing proof or was of major influence and I just wanted to know what and where it was so I could better understand what the cause of this split in the forum and this epic fail and such is about. I really am confused and just trying to understand. I am just new to this and this is what I see initially and I was just trying to understand this whole thing. I am sorry if I have offended.
Orion
Thanking you in advance
Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Well yes that is what I am asking for too. What is this information that has been a factor in this situation? You must understand that from just seeing this forum and all of the "boarded up windows" it looks like a ghost town an d I just wanted to how it happened? After working on the book fr so long what did the author see that caused such a drastic change in course? If you have a link I would be very appreciative.
Orion
Orion
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Trickfox
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Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Actually... That's a very good question Orion.... One that only Paul himself can answer and the answer is already posted on Paul's personal blog: http://49chevy.blogs.com/home/2009/01/epic-fail-.html You read it and decide for yourself.
Trickfox
Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
Mr. Orion,
This is what you said:
As to links in regard to Mr. Hull's different Fusor variations, all you have to do is google his name and Fusion. As to what happenened to this forum and the book, Mr. Trickfox has posted the link.
If you are looking for Dr. Brown's Biefeld-Brown effect then again, Mr. Trickfox gave you a good start with the Honda experiment or get Paul LaViolette's book.
Mikado
This is what you said:
Then I asked you for the link or what info you were referring to and then you said this:Orion wrote: I have read the info stating that this Hull guy has some convincing proof
I am asking you as to what you read stating that "this Hull guy has some convincing proof" ...what convincing proof and proof of what?Orion wrote: Well yes that is what I am asking for too.
As to links in regard to Mr. Hull's different Fusor variations, all you have to do is google his name and Fusion. As to what happenened to this forum and the book, Mr. Trickfox has posted the link.
If you are looking for Dr. Brown's Biefeld-Brown effect then again, Mr. Trickfox gave you a good start with the Honda experiment or get Paul LaViolette's book.
Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Re: WE all left the rabbit hole
I am asking you as to what you read stating that "this Hull guy has some convincing proof" ...what convincing proof and proof of what?
I did say "or of major influence" and it does seem he is a factor in this split. I surely don't know of his proof. This is like arriving on the scene of a plane crash and trying to figure out what happened. I can see that I have a lot of catching up to do!
Thanks for the info.
Orion
I did say "or of major influence" and it does seem he is a factor in this split. I surely don't know of his proof. This is like arriving on the scene of a plane crash and trying to figure out what happened. I can see that I have a lot of catching up to do!
Thanks for the info.
Orion