Intelligence? The state of being.

[LongboardLOVELY]

...If not for a Good God, where would Goodness come from?

If I did not believe that God exists, then where would I be in the situation that has recently come to pass in my life? Good and Evil would be subjective feelings reflecting what our culture has taught us to approve or disapprove, if I did not believe in God. But let's suppose there is No GOD. Or any other higher intellectual Being. Who then established our moral absolutes? Our sense of "Rightness"?

...Are you saying here that natural disasters are caused by us somehow being somehow 'sinful' and causing it?...

Not at all. If you subscribe to the origin of life theory put out by creationists, then when sin officially entered the world, the land was also cursed by it. God allows the earth to demonstrate the consequences sin has had on Creation. Why did God allow the tsunami to kill over 225,000 people in Asia? Why did God allow Hurricane Katrina to destroy the homes of hundreds of thousands of people? I do not know. What I do know is this…God is good! There are many amazing miracles, in both instances, that occurred - preventing an even greater loss of life. Natural disasters causes millions of people to reevaluate their priorities in life. Hundreds of millions of dollars in aid was sent to help the people that suffered, in both situations.

.."I don't buy it"

Quite all right. Should have heard me in high school and college! But what if? Ask yourself that question sometime, Victoria. What IF? What if just because I cannot understand everything that has happened or is happening does not mean that God is not still in control?
A long time ago I had a boss who always like to say "Give me bottom dollar" and a teacher who always liked to say "Give the ol' college try".

..[beginning the paragraph where you did not believe in the whole Garden of Eden thing]....I do not understand or appreciate the role of Jesus as our "Savior" from that original Sin...Not to say that I have not listened very carefully and found much value in the words that Jesus was reported to speak.

Which words of Jesus did you find valuable?

Linda B.

[Paul S.]

I will not say that I am arguing in either direction of there being a GOD or no GOD. Just the possibilities behind the opposite argument.

Given the depth of your arguments, methinks your disclaimer is a tad ingenuous. In any event, your actual points, even from a 'devils' advocate's perspective, really don't auger very well one way or the other.

1. To argue that God should not permit evil or suffering is to argue against human beings having free choice.

If humans are free to choose between good and evil, they can make that choice with or without a god.

2. The things we consider the greatest virtues would not be known in a world without evil and suffering.

That's also the why you can't have continuous comedy. If everything's a joke, then nothing is a joke. That we live in a world of relatives neither accounts for, nor discounts the presence of God.

3. Our moral objection to evil and suffering is itself an argument for a good God.

Our moral objection to evil and suffering is an argument for good People.

4. If you argue that evil is evidence there is no God you must also admit that good is evidence there is a God.

Evil is the evidence of bad people; Good is the evidence of good people. Both can coexist in the world, with or without a God.

5. The Bible itself raises this question. It never backs away from it. The problem of suffering and evil is in Habakkuk, Jeremiah, Job, and many of the Psalms.

Raising questions is good. More people should ask more questions, especially when it comes to their beliefs. Unfortunately, through most of human history, asking the wrong questions is considered blashpemy and heresy, and has been punished in the past by all manner of inhumanity, usually in the name of God.

6. The Bible attributes the origin of human evil to people exercising their free will; when they choose to disobey God's standards, it brings suffering.

When people choose to ignore standards of decency, it brings suffering, regardless of who or what determines those standards.

So, while I willingly join the multitudes in conceding the presence of a "higher power" in our lives (what did Victoria call it, an "interlocking system" ? I like that, too... ), I remain unsold on the god of the Bible and fail to see how organized religion addresses the mysteries of life in this Universe with much more than dogma -- which, I think, was the real point of the article I posted the link to: that dogma too often substitutes for creative critical thinking.

And That goes for science as well as religion.

--PS

[Mark Culpepper]

Paul,

I really do appreciate this line of discussion because I sense that there is a great deal of passion and commitment on all sides. I see that you are dedicated Linda to your belief system and I commend you for that ....

But if I had to choose a side of the "fence" that we are discussing here I think that my leaning would be alongside Pauls.

He is quite right when he mentions that through history there has been much bloodshed in the name of certain religions. Perhaps for the future mankind should re evaluate our position in the cosmos and our relationship with what we call God. Its a good time to be thinking about things. Mark

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

I think that the message that disturbs me the most about this discussion of whether or not there may be a God .... is the inference that humans are so incredibly incapable of establishing moral senses on their own that there MUST be a God.

I would like to believe that we don't need a God to discover what it is to know goodness. That there is a possibility that we could find our way there on our own.

But then, I am the hopeful sort. Elizabeth

[Paul S.]

I would like to believe that we don't need a God to discover what it is to know goodness. That there is a possibility that we could find our way there on our own.

Amen, Sister Elizabeth.

I'll attend your church any time...

--PS

[LongboardLOVELY]

Dearest Paul, (and others):
I feel as if our discussions here have hit the proverbial brick wall. I will concede your point from the last few posts between yourself and Elizabeth only because I feel that any further discussion on the philosphy and nature of what Christians refer to as "a 'personal' relationship with the Almighty" would just become more circular and pointless argument.

With that being said, I want you to know that I have the utmost respect for you and for what you are writing and researching. I believe strongly that in the very near future, you (Paul) will have to personally deal with some of these Creator/created issues in relation to what Townsend had contact with (if any). And because of that, I seek your forgiveness for the fact that I should continue to pray for your protection - spiritually, mentally and of course, physically.

Linda B.

[Victoria Steele]

I have had a few interesting experiences which I wanted to share with you.

But before that I wanted to thank you Linda for your various messages.

I have the nagging feeling though that while you have offered to "pray for Paul (and us) and the effort surrounding Townsend Browns work" , you are basically saying, "I give up on them all, that there is truly a "brick wall" that we have hit. They will never understand and its useless trying to talk with them"

I can appreciate your thoughts there and I hope I don't hurt your feelings here, but whose brick wall is it Linda? Victoria

[Victoria Steele]

I just wanted to talk with all of you about an experience I had in the last few days. Some of you may already know, that there is a major fire burning in southern california and I am a horselover type person and though I don't keep one anymore I do have friends that have horses. They live up in the high desert where the fire started so in the last couple of days I have found myself involved in some of the rescue operations that have been occuring in those areas.

My friends had a home in a place called Pioneertown. You might remember that guys if you ever watched old westerns. A bit before all of our "times" but I still enjoy the old films of Cisco the Kid (cool paint horse huh Lisa?) or The Lone Ranger ... or Roy Rogers. Well, many of those old films were made there in Pioneertown. My friends are artists and decided about five years ago to relocate from the San Diego area and they bought a nice house up there, and started collecting, well, critters.

Well, maybe it was not the best choice. That fire came through their neighborhood like some kind of a monster.

Their place was saved only because of a very good firebreak Charlie had put in there when he first moved in. He was new to the area but was wise enough to say "If a fire comes up over that ridge, then I need to have a firebreak here. And he just did that.

His house and barn were saved but some others with no fire break were lost. The power of that fire was AWESOME.

Now, later I stopped at the market to buy some food for all the people who had showed up out of nowhere to help move animals and trucks and things. It was as if people showed up from thin air. Lines of trucks and horsetrailers and people willing to help and they didn't even know my friends. I was greatly impressed.

Anyway the checker at the market (whose house was well in town and out of danger) said to someone next to her that the fire was "Gods way of showing that we were all on the wrong path." And I thought how strange that thought was ..... because I have just experienced the very best of mankind I think. And that fire was just the catalyst. I guess its all in the way that you look at it. Victoria

[Chris Knight]

Thought I'd interject here for a minute.

While we've talking about the possibility of a "directing force," or "Creator," or "insert terminology here," and things can get heated because of the intensely personal nature of a person's spiritual beliefs, I wanted to point out that the same is true in science.

When a person is asked to describe their image of a scientist, people generally apply certain characteristics such as 1) wearing white lab coats 2) carrying a clipboard 3) completely unbiased, 4) only interested in the well-being of humanity, and 5) not very interested in money and material comforts. However, I'd say that, in general, nothing could be further from the truth.

Science, whether it be biology, geology, physics, nutrition, education, etc. are just as intensely debated as religion. I've seen more really deplorable behavior (from people who should really know better) in science than I have in religion.

I've seen this behavior particularly in the field of academia, where people (educators) have staked their reputations on a theory, which has fallen out of favor for some reason, is new, is being challenged, etc. These educators will use every ounce of the authority of their position to indoctrinate any student they can get their hands on.

They alter experimental data, throw out anomalous results, ignore or riducule conflicting theories, and so on. Fortunately, from my standpoint, science is science, and data is data. The facts are there, it's just a question of whether we interpret them correctly. And I am not above climbing all over any "scientist" who I believe to be a fraud (you and I have a similar list, Victoria).

Now, I'm not applying any of these traits to anyone reading these forums. The actual facts of the universe are constant, whether we can interpret them correctly with our limited senses is a matter of conjecture.

And as far as the various religions (and science) go, in the end, until we have complete and total knowledge of the universe and every single point of data it contains, we all are going on faith - the atheists, agnostics, diests, monotheists, and every other iteration. I personally have a feeling that everything will get sorted out correctly in the end, though, so I'm not too concerned.

Oh, and Victoria. It's a small world, we have a house just up Pipes Canyon way from Pioneertown, and I've been calling my neighbors up there every day to make sure it's still there. I'm glad I spent the time to put in a good fire-break, too. Hope your friends are all OK.

Andrew

[Victoria Steele]

Andrew. I LOVED your post and you are right on every single point as far as I am concerned. BRAVO! And those attitudes are what Paul will be addressing and I am like you. I have no real concerns because I think that it will all get sorted out later, when we know more!

No kidding. Is your house still alright?

You know I have the utmost respect for that fire! I watched it when it came down one canyon in Pioneertown. I swear to you the flames were sixty feet high! You wouldn't think that the desert could burn like that but these bushes all have an oil in them (creosote?) and they go up like a danged torch. Going up again soon to help out more, 53,000 acres burned and I am really happy that your land is not part of that.

Shoot, friends of mine in Vegas say they are choking on smoke! Victoria