Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
Mikado14
Mr. Nice Guy
Posts: 2343
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:49 pm
Location: Somewhere in Pennsy

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by Mikado14 »

Paul S. wrote:
Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote: While you are looking through your notes in this direction, isn't this the same semi disastrous problem reported both in France and at Bahnsons ...1956, 1958?

"Next stage in the research requires expenditure of roughly $100,000 to modify a wind tunnel with electrical insulation. This would create isolated conditions similar to those of an aircraft in flight. Work in Northroup's 5 inch tunnel failed to produce meaningful results when the electrical discharge applied to the test body grounded against the walls of the tunnel.
Yeah, that's exactly what was reported from the Bahnson lab experiments. Similar to the results from at least the first experiments in France a couple years earlier.

And you are right, the prhase "meaningful results" is a loaded expression. At this point I think a valid interpretation is "not the results we anticipated," which also (sadly) implies a failure to seriously consider the results they did get.

--PS
Glass half empty assumption.

How about this, the results were way beyond what they expected and they had to keep it quiet. Sounds like a "Hull" type answer to me....closed minded.

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
htmagic
Senior Officer
Posts: 661
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:46 pm
Location: People's Republic of Maryland

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by htmagic »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:And while we are on this topic. As Morgan would say... chew on this.... drawn from http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works/v05.n232

"Yes, for the first time anywhere, here's a bib.:

"Northrop Studying Sonic Boom Remedy"; AW&ST, 1/22/68, pg 21.
"Experiments Indicate Electric Charge Could Quiet Sonic Boom";
Product Engineering magazine 3/11/68, pgs 35-36.
"Electroaerodynamics in Supersonic Flow"; Cahn, Andrew; AIAA 68-24
"Recent Experiments In Supersonic Regime With Electrostatic Charges";
Cahn, Andrew, Anderson; AIAA 70-759

The Product Engineering and AW&ST magazine stories prove that the
research was publicized at the time.

<SNIP>
At Mach 1.4, the shock wave moved upstream when 40 kilovolts and 70 watts are
applied to the model. Other test configurations caused the shock wave to
move both upstream and downstream.

In one experiment, at Mach 1.4, the shock wave COMPLETELY DISAPPEARED FROM
VIEW (emphasis added by me)".

So there you have it, complete disappearance of a shock in a supersonic flow!

Quite interesting!"

And I agree. Sticking to the non mystical side of this, All that is left for us to do here is alot of hard work to draw the lines which connect Dr. Brown, Floyd Odlum, these "hand off tests" after the demonstration at Rand in November of 1967....and Northrops skunkworks projects.

My impression is that Internet missing article (which was probably initially very painfully leaked by somebody) is going to finally be useful now, if we all recognize the importance of it.

What else might be in that article? Why is it important? I agree, I don't know why it will be important, I just know that it is .............

Paul wants and needs solid things to point to and I agree, we need to follow this to some sort of conclusion. But other than all of that hard work just don't ask us how to prove how the information just "happens" to arrive in our direction to begin with.... because of course that might just be "mystical BS" <g> Elizabeth
Elizabeth,

I read the article and you missed this:
http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works/v05.n232 wrote:Also from the halls of the WIERD (but very interesting). There is another
field, called Magnetoaerodynamics, that was oriented around the same
application.

That field did studies of aerospace vehicles that had even wierder effects,
for example, shock waves that went FORWARD, from the tail TO the nose of
the aircraft!!

These studies required a vehicle, immersed in a plasma, where the vehicle
could emit a powerful and orientable magnetic field.


The unusual effect mentioned above was caused by certain magnetic field
orientations in the vehicle when the Alfven Wave speed was greater than
the speed of sound, in the plasma medium.

Again, the sources in this field are completely unclassified. However,
many of the interesting papers were written by famous aerodynamicist
John Sears, of Northrop Flying Wing fame, after he left Northrop for
Cornell University, after the YB-49 was steamrolled.
I find it interesting that even the Skunkwork employees (skunkers) are even wondering amongst themselves:
http://www.netwrx1.com/skunk-works/v05.n232 wrote:>Rumors circulating among people close to the project allege that the
>B-2 does utilize antigravity technology. So, our conjecture, that
>the B-2 incorporates an electrogravitic drive, appears to be
>substantially correct.
This goes back to the compartmentalism and also the one hand of the department not knowing what the other hand is doing...

MagicBill
Speeding through the Universe, thinking is the best way to travel ...
Radomir
Senior Cadet
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 6:51 pm

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by Radomir »

Magic: You may not be aware of it so I repost below. "Substantially correct" is a phrase with some interesting valence, hereabouts:
twigsnapper wrote:kevin,

Dr. Brown was an accurate speller and an excellent wordsmith. His penmanship, if you have a chance to notice it, was controlled and elegant. I personally have experienced his " proofreading skills" and his abundant use of a red pen to correct mistakes, and I made plenty and still do.

The phrase he used to use with me was that my report was " substantially correct" (which was his code phrase meaning that there was a hole in the report big enough to drive a truck through. "Substantially correct "for him was not good enough and if you thought that was a phrase used as a compliment you were WAY off base. )

He was right handed.

twigsnapper
Best,
R.
Trickfox
The Magician
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:06 am
Location: Quebec or Montreal
Contact:

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by Trickfox »

To answer your question Gravity. I do have that article somewhere in the hundreds of thousands of papers in some boxes I have bee dragging around since the early ninetees. It would take a giant effort for me to find it, but I do remember talking about it with Paul and telling him how I found out about it. I also remember quite a bit of the details about this interview and what was talked about. What is not specified is the actual identity of the scientists and engineers that Scott was actually talking to. Somehow after checking out their actual backgrounds Scott felt the need to protect their identity when he published the article in Aviation Weekly and Space Technology. Electrogravitic Communications, and Stealth technologies were the main thrust of the interview, so because of my own interests in both subject, I was able to understand and absorb all of the pertinent details.

If you would like more details I'll be happy to talk about it in private messages, and perhaps I could get to know you and trade some other perinent informatin of this type.

Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
twigsnapper
Revered Elder
Posts: 839
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:25 pm
Location: mobile

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by twigsnapper »

With all due respect Trickfox what you have offered here is helpful but will not still replace the actual article which Gravity Well is lead to find for himself (for reasons he can not describe.)

Your help in this of course may be part of the piece of the puzzle he is searching for and it may indeed be a MAJOR part so I thank you for offering your help to him. But still, for the rest of you out there.... Cast your circle again. It will be important for all of you to be able to see that article itself.... and for some reason Gravity Well needs to see it himself.

Interesting names being collected, for a start. twigsnapper
twigsnapper
Revered Elder
Posts: 839
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:25 pm
Location: mobile

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by twigsnapper »

Oh, and Mr Magic,

You will learn in time that Linda didn't miss that. She left it for you and Mr. Radomir to comment upon it. You have to watch her sometimes. She is alot like her Dad. <g> twigsnapper
Elizabeth Helen Drake
Sr. Research Asst.
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:11 am

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Mr, twigsnapper,

That was me.... but I agree .... He is a hard act to follow though. Elizabeth
Rose
Senior Cadet
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:56 pm

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by Rose »

Here's what comes up on my first search. I've left the backtrail in. I hope this is what you need, GravityWell

To: ALL Message #: 3738
From: Jim Graham Submitted: 02 Apr 92 15:00:00
Subject: Black Technology... Status: Public
Received: No Group: INFO.PARANET (1)

MSGID: 9:1012/13 1101e1c5
I found this on UseNet, newsgroup "sci.space" today.

-------------------------CUT HERE---------------------

Path:
bronze!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu
!linac!att!ucbvax!FRCPN11.IN2P3.FR!PHARABOD From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: U.S. black programs
Message-ID: Date: 1 Apr
92 23:04:05 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: The Internet
Lines: 171

AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY, March 9, 1992 - "Black World"
Engineers, Scientists Encourage Using Highly Classified
Technology for Civil Applications - William B. Scott/Los Angeles:

''A small fraction of "black world" engineers and scientists are
encouraged by recent government commitments to open intelligence
agency files, and congressional threats to curtail funding for
some highly classified projects.

Such chilling prospects normally would be viewed with alarm by
all who get paychecks from U.S. intelligence agencies, but a few
technical personnel see opportunity instead of gloom. This minority
hopes issues raised over the last two years are bearing fruit now,
and might push some black technology into the open eventually.

In voicing their view, this small group of scientific professionals
dared to break a code of silence that rivals the Mafia's, and
several individuals claim they have suffered accordingly. Two said
they can prove their civil rights were blatantly abused - always in
the name of security - either to keep them quiet or to prevent their
leaving the loosely structured, yet highly controlled R&D community.

"Once you're in, they don't let you go," an engineer said.

Many dedicated "spooks" undoubtly went into a defensive crouch
when Robert M. Gates, director of the Central Intelligence Agency,
announced last month that some CIA files would be opened. Openness
is anathema to the intelligence professional; it defies all Cold
War rules of business. But the world has changed, and Gates realized
that CIA and its sister agencies must adapt.

Within days of Gate's announcement, several congressmen declared
open season on black programs they believed were unnecessary since
the Soviet Union disbanded (AW&ST Mar. 2, p. 62).

Proponents of "deep black" programs point to the lessons of history,
noting that dictators and tyrants with dreams of world domination
have popped up repeatedly. And when that happens, the U.S. must have
a technological arsenal capable of stomping out the threat, they
argue. The nation's "silver bullets" are best developed in the black,
where neither friend nor foe knows they even exist, let alone how
effective they are.

Opponents of the status-quo, keep-it-all-classified school see a
different "new world order" emerging. These engineers, scientists,
technicians and aircraft mechanics believe that U.S. *economic*
national security is more at risk now than military security. One
way to combat economic threats to each citizen's standard of living
is to release some of the secret technology already developed at
taxpayer expense, they maintain.

One scientist identified several "black world" breakthrough that,
he believes, have both military and commercial potential. The
technologies include:

# Very sensitive infrared sensors that do not require cryogenic
cooling. The researcher claimed that, by reducing IR sensor thermal
noise through "electrostatic heat transfer" techniques, today's best
IR array could operate at sensitivities "several orders of magnitude
better than is possible with cryogenic cooling". Environmental
monitoring satellites - as well as strategic defense sensors on
Brilliant Pebbles and Brilliant Eyes spacecraft - could use this
technology to extend the on-orbit life of infrared sensors
indefinitely. Currently, the operational life of an IR space sensor
is limited by the amount of cryogenic cooling material available.

# Instantly altering the thermal equilibrium of a large optical lens
or mirror through electrostatic "bulk cooling" methods. The result
is analogous to that attained with phase conjugate optics in
telescopes or imaging devices employing an elastic-type mirror. "We
spent a lot of time in the [1980s] developing a micro-processor
interface to a high-voltage power supply ... to control optical
arrays," he said. "The results were absolutely astounding".

# Using sensitized random access memory (RAM) to detect or transmit
low levels of near and far-infrared energy. When incorporated into a
feedback system for temperature stabilization, the RAM could be used
as "an esoteric IR detector that is simple and reliable," he claimed.

# Low-observable ceramics made from powdered, depleted uranium. The
resulting dielectric material has approximately 92% the bulk density
of depleted uranium, but is about 20 times harder. So far, the
ceramic has been demonstrated in a "stealth artillery shell" that
cannot be detected by radar. Although the ceramic is of great interest
to the U.S. Army, "black world" power struggles over ownership of its
manufacturing process is preventing the material's broad application.

# Short-pulse Doppler radar (SPDR) - which may be the black world's
term for ultra-wideband radar (UWB) (AW&ST Dec. 4, 1989, p. 38). One
black-world researcher claimed an over-the-horizon SPDR operating at
50 kw. output power, transmitting a short pulse with a duty cycle of
approximatively 0.003, could detect air vehicles 2,500 naut. mi. away
in all weather conditions. The receiver employed a "Bragg cell
channelizer", he said.

However, the capability of SPDR to also detect stealthy vehicles
has kept the technology in the limbo since the mid-1980s. "Anybody
who brought it up at [a company] got his nose cut off," the scientist
said. Although he was not familiar with the bitter controversy over
UWB since 1989, he said the earlier suppression of SPDR "was absolutely
criminal, because any stealth technology stood out like a sore thumb
when hit with short-pulse Doppler" (AW&ST Oct. 21, 1991, p 22; Nov. 19,
1990, p. 18).

Engineers working on highly classified programs cited other
technologies that appeared to this editor as only military related.
They said that - if the principles were widely understood - though,
there would be definite commercial applications.

One was a "thermal signature masking technology ... which is used on
the B-2 [stealth bomber]," an engineer said. "Basically, it's an
electrostatic heat transfer phenomena that charges the jet engine
exhaust stream to disperse the heat - by a factor of about 800. It
does a remarkable job of altering the thermal signature."

He said the same basic technology, used in wing leading edges, can
reduce a flying vehicle's radar cross section (RCS) by masking thermal
signatures created by aerodynamic perturbations of the air. "The radar
signature of an incoming warhead can be reduced to less than 10%" of
its normal value, the engineer said. "We found that radar cross
section has a lot to do with aerodynamics and turbulence - past
certain speeds."

Electrostatic field-generating techniques in the B-2's wing leading
edges may help reduce its RCS. The bomber's leading edges posed a
particularly challenging production problem on the first aircraft,
and may have been the source of diminished results during early
stealth flight tests.

In 1968, Aviation Week reported that Northrop was evaluating
"electrical forces to condition the air flowing around an aircraft at
supersonic speeds" to reduce drag, heating and sonic boom effects.
The findings were promising enough to justify funding of additional
research (AW&ST Jan. 22, p. 21).

By negatively ionizing air molecules ahead of an aircraft, then
charging the nose to the same polarity, an electrostatic field was
formed. The field tended to repel or alter the molecules' path as the
aircraft approached, according to the article.

If the "black world" actually has developed feasible ways to reduce
airframe drag substantially with controlled electrostatic fields,
commercial aircraft manufacturers and airlines should be campaigning
mightily for the technology. The potential fuel and cost savings for
just American, United and Delta would be staggering.

A scientist said other, more dramatic, classified technologies are
applicable to lasers, aircraft control and propulsion. However, the
scientists and engineers were especially hesitant to discuss these
projects. One said they are "very black. Besides, it would take about
20 hr. to explain the principles, and very few people would understand
them anyway."

Whether or not black technology will be released in the near future
or not will depend more on political power wielded in Washington than
the recommendations of dissident "insider" factions. It appears that
most within the intelligence research and development community are
highly skeptical of even Gates' born-again approach, despite the high
hopes of openness proponents.

Defense Secretary Richard B. Cheney said there was no near-term plan
to declassify technology now trapped in the "black world". He said the
need to maintain a qualitative edge over potential adversaries "always
will take precedence" over economic competitiveness issues (AW&ST Feb.
17, p. 17).

Whether that status-quo posture will stand in face of intense
Japanese and European competition during a presidential election year
is yet to be determined - especially when U.S. and allied contractor
executives are scrambling anxiously for ways to turn defense
technology into commercial profits.''

http://www.ufoera.com/articles/some-sam ... 10645.html
Strange travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god.
Linda Brown
Resident Mystic
Posts: 653
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:16 pm

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by Linda Brown »

A rose is a rose is a Rose. Thankyou so much.

Anybody know anything at all about these projects or what they are?

"as well as strategic defense sensors on
Brilliant Pebbles and Brilliant Eyes spacecraft - could use this
technology to extend the on-orbit life of infrared sensors
indefinitely."

Brilliant Pebbles????????? Linda
Rose
Senior Cadet
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:56 pm

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by Rose »

Linda Brown wrote:A rose is a rose is a Rose. Thankyou so much.

Anybody know anything at all about these projects or what they are?

Not yet? I got distracted by this;

United States gravity control propulsion initiative


The gravity control propulsion initiative was a nation-wide collection of classified projects: they were aimed to develop and discover technologies and theories for the manipulation of gravity or gravity-like fields for propulsion.[1] Although general relativity theory appeared to prohibit anti-gravity propulsion, several programs were funded to develop it through gravitation research from 1955 to 1973. The names of many contributors to general relativity and those of the golden age of general relativity have appeared among documents about institutions that had served as the theoretical research components of the initiative.[2][3][4] The existence and 1950s emergence of the initiative has not been a subject of controversy for aerospace writers, critics, and conspiracy theory advocates. But its rationale, effectiveness, and longevity have been the objects of contested views.


much more at;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... initiative
Strange travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god.
grinder
Senior Officer
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:20 am

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by grinder »

SEVERAL PROJECTS WERE FUNDED? FROM 1955-1970?

So were the "leaks" about these programs reported in that article that was left on Nick Cooks desk? What was it? The G engines are coming! Something like that. Naming all of those firms, CONVAIR****** (Odlum!!!!) Lear Jet***** ( William Lear!!!!) and then all of a sudden like the curtain dropped without hesitation. BOOM. Nobody knew NOTHING about no antigravity projects! Amazing.

But I am like you here Ms. Brown. " Brilliant Pebbles????????????" SENSORS???????? THAT JUST SCREAMS YOUR DAD AND I THINK THAT YOU SEE THAT TOO. DEFENSE SYSTEMS??????????? BROWN, BROWN, BROWN, BROWN grinder
grinder
Senior Officer
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:20 am

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by grinder »

AND THANKYOU ROSE FOR THIS

But its rationale, effectiveness, and longevity have been the objects of contested views."

Oh, I want to hear some of those discussions, now that I know that it seems to have been accepted that there was an initiative ... but they are discussing and contesting its " effectiveness and longivity" What? of a super black project or projects? Oh I want in on those talks! grinder
Rose
Senior Cadet
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:56 pm

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by Rose »

here's another bit from the wiki article;

Talbert's newspaper series and subsequent articles in technical magazines and journals listed the names of aerospace firms conducting gravity control propulsion research. The Gravity Research Group indicated those companies had constructed "rigs" to improve the performance of Thomas Townsend Brown's gravitators through attempts to develop materials with high dielectric constants (k).[1] Gravity Rand Limited provided a set of guidelines to help management conduct research and nurture creativity.[32] Articles about the initiative aerospace firms ceased after 1976. None of the companies featured in those publications had filed retractions. The following is a list of the aerospace firms that had been cited in the works published from 1955 through 1976:

* Bell Aircraft, Buffalo, New York.[8]
* Boeing Aircraft.[13]
* Clarke Electronics, Palm Springs, California.[8]
* Convair, San Diego, CA.[8]
* Douglas Aircraft.[1]
* Electronics Division, Ryan Aeronautical Company, San Diego, California.[33]
* General Electric.[8]
* Glenn L. Martin Company, Baltimore, Maryland.[8]
* Gluhareff Helicopter & Airplane Corporation, Manhattan Beach, California.[8]
* Grumman Aircraft.[34]
* Hiller.[1]
* Hughes Aircraft.[13]
* Lear Incorporated, Santa Monica, California.[8]
* Lockheed Aircraft Corporation.[30]
* Radio Corporation.[13]
* Sikorsky Division of United Aircraft.[8]
* Sperry Gyroscope Division of Sperry Rand Corporation, Great Neck, Long Island.[8]
Strange travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god.
Rose
Senior Cadet
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:56 pm

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by Rose »

And from there it was only a short hop to this;

A COMPILATION OF ANTI-GRAVITY ARTICLES AND REFERENCES

These 5 articles are included in this file below:

1. "CONQUEST OF GRAVITY AIM OF TOP SCIENTISTS IN U. S." New York Herald-Tribune: Sunday, November 20, 1955, pp. l & 36.

2. "SPACE-SHIP MARVEL SEEN IF GRAVITY IS OUTWITTED" New York Herald-Tribune: Monday, November 21, 1955, pp. 1 & 6.

3. "NEW AIR DREAM-PLANES FLYING OUTSIDE GRAVITY" New York Herald-Tribune: Tuesday, November 22, 1955, pp. 6 & 10.

4. "Towards Flight - without Stress or Strain... or Weight" By INTEL, Washington, D.C.

5. THE GRAVITICS SITUATION (Theme of the science for 1956-1970) By Gravity Rand Ltd., December 1956.

i'm not going to copy the articles, but they are here if you want them:

http://www.padrak.com/ine/TTB_EGP.html


I did find this interesting snippet.


Dudley Clarke, president of Clarke Electronics laboratories of Palm Springs, Calif., one of the nation's oldest firms dedicated to electronic research and experimentation, is one scientist in the hardware stage of building something that he believes will prove gravity can be put to useful purposes.

Mr. Clarke's company has just caused a stir in the electronics industry by developing pressure-sensitive resistors having unusual characteristics for parachute and other aviation use, according to 'Teletech and Electronic Industries' magazine of 480 Lexington Ave. Mr. Clarke who years ago worked under Dr. Charles Steinmetz, General Electric Company's electrical and
mathematical 'wizard' of the 1930s, is sure that this successful harnessing of gravitation will take place sooner than some of these 'ivy tower' scientists believe.

Like Sir Frank Whittle, Britain's jet pioneer who was informed in 1935 by the British Air Ministry that it could see no practical use for his jet aircraft engine, Mr. Clarke has a particularly cherished letter. It was written about the same time by the commanding general at Wright Field giving a similar analysis of a jet design proposal by Mr. Clarke.

Mr. Clarke notes that the force of gravity is powerful enough to generate many thousand times more electricity than now is generated at Niagra Falls and every other water-power centre in the world - if it can be harnessed. This impending event, he maintains, will make possible the manufacture of anti-gravity 'power packages' which can be bought for a few hundred
dollars. These would provide all the heat and power needed by one family for an indefinite period.
Strange travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god.
grinder
Senior Officer
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:20 am

Re: Looking for an article detailing 'black projects' (B-2 etc)

Post by grinder »

I am getting a really strange feeling here . Paul has mentioned that Dr, Brown had ties with the NRO early in its development and I guess Morgan was the one who told him that. And here suddenly we have reference to programs that COULD ONLY BE UNDER THE NROs space defense program.

So heres the thing. Was Dr, Brown more interested in this " antigravity program" or was he finished with that and already on to the next thing on his plate? You have to remember that this man was a good fifty years ahead of everybody. So maybe all the hype about " Adamski Saucers" and " flame jet generators" and other things like that were already old hat to him?

a new place to view the story from, thats for sure. grinder
Locked