The Unknown Interface and Townsend Brown

[Victoria Steele]

There you go folks. A brand new post for all those comments that don't really fit into normal reality.

Like getting a hunch to do something and having it work out spectacularly ...or THINKING THAT YOU ARE "STUMBLING INTO SOMETHING" . Or "things just seem to fall in your direction.

How Townsend Brown seemed to be able to get where he needed to go so ....not effortlessly surely ... but I still don't understand how he managed to end up at the NRL less than a month after he proposed a project to them that included his own research equipment.
Any of you out there familiar with how fast the Navy works. Doesn't that seem just a tad magical? (drawing here from information that Paul mentioned in his Chapter 24.)

I have to admit. I have gotten so consumed with the story that I have printed all the chapters out and have them in a binder near my desk . I leave it open when I am on the forum . Thats why I notice those little magical moments. And there are ALOT of them in this book. And you know what I think is the most magical .... that I would even bother to get this damned involved. Its like I was personally invited to join by SOMETHING and I don't even know WHAT.

And I don't think that I will be the only one because it seems to me that there is something for everyone in this book and something that everyone can add to it. Its like some sort of music that can be written down but also needs to be heard and sung ..... Hey Jimmy Buffett. Where are you? Victoria

[jbm]

Howdy... I've been wondering which thread would drag me into the rabbit hole, myself. I'm not - as yet - well-versed enough with TTB (nor with the "hard" science germane to the ongoing discussions of his work) to add anything constructive. That having been said:

The implicit reference in your post about "serendipity" sort of resonated with me - since I spent some time enamored with another bright point on the eccentric orbit of The Fringe; namely - Rupert Sheldrake. His fundamental ideas of "formative causation" and "morphic resonance" - which is described (by me, simplistically, very briefly, and very inadequately) thus: all systems perpetuate according to habit, rather than according to any pervasive principle. The habits progenate through time via "morphogenetic fields", which are - roughly - potentialities which are defined and strengthened by repetition (ie -habit).

The poor Doctor Sheldrake (though as educationally qualified as any botanist/biologist) has had his share of detractors. He's an omnipresent entry within the skeptical genre of websites. The implications of his ideas are, however, very profound:

eg
* Memory isn't stored within the brain (as a database designer, the indexing problem presented by the conventional explanation for memory has always troubled me); but, rather, is a "tuning in" to information within the total morphogenetic field of memory. This model supports an explanation of telepathy, deja vu, hypnosis, etc.
* A giraffe doesn't grow into a giraffe (nor do the individual giraffe parts - vertebrae, say - form those, and only those, specific giraffe constituents during gestation) because of information coded at the cellular level; but, instead, because of the pervasive morphic field formed via the existence of all previous giraffes (and their respective pieces). This provides an teleological (if not mechanistic) method for the "punctuated equilibrium" evolutionary pattern termed and observed by Stephen Jay Gould, et. al. BTW, Gould once said, of Sheldrake, that (paraphrasing) "he is beautifully and elegantly wrong". But, then, SJG always seemed like a butthead, to me.
* Doing the NY Times crossword puzzle a day late should be easier than doing it on the day of issue, because of the collective morphic field created by the numerous people who've already completed the puzzle.

And there numerous other adjuncts. The Blue Tits story was always a favorite of mine - forgive this lengthy dustjacket quote from _The Presence of the Past_

"Why are rabbits rabbit-shaped? Once blue-tits began pecking the tops off milk bottles, why did the habit spread magically across Europe? After Roger Bannister ran the four-minute mile, why did it begin to be broken everywhere?

"In The Presence of the Past Rupert Sheldrake's explosive scientific theory provides a new and radical solution to the conundrums of life. Dr Sheldrake's hypothesis is that memory is inherent in nature — all natural systems from crystals to man inherit a collective memory of their kind. Thus, rabbits are rabbit-shaped not only because nature has a 'morphic field', in their case a rabbit-habit, that informs their growth and instinctive behaviour. According to Dr Sheldrake's theory of 'formative causation', this inherent memory depends on 'morphic resonance', a process that involves action at a distance in both space and time. Far from being stored as material traces within our brains, our own memories result from our tuning in to ourselves in the past."

Anyhoo... I bring Rupert up because it seems to pertain to your reference of the synchronous nature of TTB's progress. I once posted (on another board) that Dr. Sheldrake's formative causation extended bilaterally in time; that is, both forward and backward. Then I was brazen enough to fwd my post to the man himself; who replied via email that morphogenesis proceeds only forward in time (but this contradicts my understanding of his original theory), and could have been a confusion regarding my original description of the conditions.

Does it matter to this board? Well, maybe not. But I feel like there's a parallel between formative causation acting at both a temporal and physical distance, and the associated discussions of the multiple - and exceptionally diverse - foci of T. Townsend Brown.

And I get a certain dis-establishment rush when poking at the myopically skeptical empiricists, one of whom once observed of Sheldrake (who I am not - current posting aside - an apologist for) "...if he did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him as a foil for proper science".

Regards (and sorry for the considerably more than $0.02 in an inaugural post),

jbm

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

jbm,

Thank you so much for joining our forum. I found your input remarkable and fascinating!

As you have probably read by now Paul is getting ready to push off on a vacation which will take him away from us until mid May.

I am his assistant in this wonderful project so I wanted to welcome you to this strange magical rabbit hole. I am sure that we will be hearing more from him regarding the points that you bring up. Please forgive any delay, if there happens to be one.

I have to learn more about Dr.Sheldrake before I offer any useful comments to your post. But this is how I have learned to operate in this strange world. You have appeared, mentioned a name (I know next to nothing about) ....therefore .... I am SUPPOSED to look carefully in that direction. This is a process that Paul has named "finding pieces of bread in the forest". We have been following this "trail", knowing somehow that it is connected to our man Townsend Brown for nearly four years now. I can't at all prove how that works in our instance but I can show you the result of that kind of guidence by some of the "strange happenings" surrounding lead development for this project. Starting from the very first mysterious Email Paul received where the name Townsend Brown was mentioned ..... and Pauls initial response was ....... WHO?

I find the things that you have said "resonate" with me too. And thats one of the first things noticed when these wonderful golden threads "present themselves" to us. They vibrate. Call your attention to them.

And yes ... once it starts ... more and more people notice. I firmly believe that this story is the account of one mans life in a difficult, secretive world ...BUT THATS NOT THE MAIN STORY. THE MAIN STORY IS THE NATURE OF THESE VIBRATING GOLDEN THREADS AND OUR RESPONSE TO THEM.

So I welcome you in this quest because I think that you bring with you valuable information which needs to be discussed and considered. Thats why you were able to call it to our attention.

You mentioned that the "process" you mentioned , according to Dr. Shelldrake, only went forward. And that might fit into what Dr. Brown told his new "recruit" Morgan. His quote was something like ...."If there were NATURAL LAWS against going back .... what then would you do?" They were talking about "time travel" at that moment. Its a very interesting section and I am looking forward to your responses on that chapter too, once you get better aquainted with the story.

Your two cents worth is a rare treasure. Thank you very much! Elizabeth

[Victoria Steele]

THANKYOU jbm for jumping into this rabbit hole with us. Your company is greatly appreciated.

I am getting ready to walk out of the door for a few errands but I will definitely be back to discuss this whole section as soon as possible!

jbm ....... when you quoted from him that "memory wasn't stored in the brain", that makes total sense to me. Perhaps the things that we learn day to day ....( why not to touch a hot stove ..... quadratic equations (<g>) ... perhaps those things could be held in the "holding pen" we call our brains, but the other things ..... the "Knowing things because you just know things" the instinctive behavior of self preservation .... the "feeling" that there is something "bigger" than us somehow is involved in all of this .... perhaps that is held in some sort of magic library that IS NOT IN OUR BRAINS

Perhaps all of that is invested in the "intelligent controlling unknown" of the Universe? Make any sense? What are your thoughts in this direction?

And maybe we all have a sort of natural genetic "library card"? Perhaps j some of us realize what it is ..... and some of us are unaware that we are carrying it.

May I ask jbm ..... what set of circumstances led you to the work and life of Townsend Brown? I would be interested in hearing that. I notice that you are posting from France. My, I am going to have to brush up on my language skills. Victoria

[jbm]

Thanks for the warm greets!

My Sheldrake segue was really just free-association (therefore, it may not contribute substantively to the Brown affair, it must be said; in other words, don't take time away from anything important to worry over morphogenesis!) I must also add that (while the infamous Nature editorial brouhaha with Sheldrake still irks me, as it does others), I don't - now - believe that formative causation works at macro levels universally. Certainly some things do seem to develop with an over-arching purpose that does not selectively apply to incremental stages in that development (eg: bird feathers - which don't offer any sort of selective survivability advantage until those little barboules start zipping together sufficiently to block the air, permitting flight - are pretty much decorative primeval plumage, up to that developmental point).

And - while I do tend to see some Baconian, "save-the-phenomenon" indication of fields at work in - particularly - social phenomena, such as the burgeoning interest in TTB that Ms. Drake mentioned, I was really only riffing off the theme in the thread-starter with my rambling note.

I was chiefly applying one concept from Sheldrake that I wondered about in a sci-fi way, given the latest chapter tease of "time travel". Dr. S has posited that - since the effects of morphogenesis apply atemporally (backwards as well as forwards in time), then one could apply these tendencies experimentally to pragmatic utility. One of Sheldrake's frequent collaborators (another fringey, who I will always admire), the late Terence McKenna, once remarked that the brilliant scientist who finally perfects a time-travel mechanism will find himself suddenly surrounded by visitors from the future who have travelled back to witness the seminal breakthrough that has, in fact, permitted their historical tourism.

SO...I was wondering if (forgive me) Brown's supposed development of time-travelling theories (or methods?) might be supported by our own increasing interest in same? Like, might not our attention to this idea be the butterfly wings that give rise to a wind of scientific inquiry applying Brown's work, which, then - in the fullness of time - could be the thunderclouds of inspiration that finally result in the realization of a working time-travel mechanism? I realize this stretches the metaphor (and plausibility), but it's fun! And - further - might not the atemporal wave of potentiality of which our interest is one formative node, have spread ripples backward in time to occasion TTB's thoughts on this in the 1st place?

Wow! I do like pondering such conundrums...since they don't require any actual work on my part! Oh - I do live in France (expat American from Colorado), but my French is abysmal (still learning), and I was - weirdly enough - turned-on to TTB while researching the name of an artwork which stands in courtyard of an eccentric billionaire (and quite mad) neighbor of mine, who has rendered his whole 12th century mansion into a monument to chaos - greatly disrupting the peace of our medieval village of 1100, and becoming quite a cause celebre for the torn, art-loving but communally-minded French citizenry. The work is a (I believe) Sikorsky helicopter (a real one), crashed atop a crushed Willys vehicle, with charred scorch-marks and oil drums and such. It was inexplicably entitled "The Biefield-Brown Effect" originally; since changed to something else.

Here's some photoes (not mine) of the originally entitled series - the house is actually much more "developed", now - though it may be dismantled soon:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/home_of_chaos/122660616/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/home_of_chaos/122660515/

More available at:

http://www.demeureduchaos.com/

My 5-yr old and I walk by this weirdness (including the "Ground Zero monument to the WTC Action") on the way to and from maternelle each day - and I am preparing an article.

But it did prompt a search which brought T. Townsend Brown to my attention! Serendipity, indeed!

dp

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Again, more than fascinating!!!!

Perhaps you are not familiar with the fact that Townsend Brown spent some time in Paris during the years 1955/1956. He was associated with a large firm there that was an aircraft establishment. They ran tests on Dr. Browns "discs". Enough to discover that the units worked well in a vacuum. I am skipping over this because its part of Pauls story and should rightfully be told in his words ...

BUT ... we also know that Dr. Brown was at the same time somehow connected with the GCHQ in England, which is tied tightly with their intelligence Ml5. Mr. Twigsnapper has stepped forward to verify that.

And now you present us with this wonderful information I believe that ONLY YOU were destined to know and lay at our feet! You say that I should not "take away" from the "research" on Townsend Browns life ... but you misunderstand. You ARE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, PART OF IT , part of the unfolding, expanding process. So again .... Welcome!

You say that your neighbor is "mad" ... but I suspect not. I suspect that he just knows MORE than he has been able to express (other than through the artwork that he has established there) .....Notice that it is ON YOUR PATH. Can you please tell me more about this individual? It seems that my request for "boots on the ground" in various areas has been fulfilled!

Trickfox .... have you had a chance to look at this information?

And Mr. Twigsnapper, can you comment?

Terry McKenna ... a name that has come up in our research. A friend of "Morgans" . So interesting also that you would mention him. MARKERS to show that we are indeed on the right path. Thank you so much! Elizabeth

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Hi jbm ..... Following up on the information that you sent .....

Trickfox .... help! .... can you find our about the reference to SALAMANDER in the information that jbm has just sent us? Any of your friends in that direction who can help dig into that? Paul may be away but I am more than here! Thank you so much!

Are you a writer then jbm? How exciting this all is. Let us know about the article that you are planning. I am sure the forum here will be very interested. Elizabeth

[jbm]

<snip>
Perhaps you are not familiar with the fact that Townsend Brown spent some time in Paris during the years 1955/1956. He was associated with a large firm there that was an aircraft establishment. They ran tests on Dr. Browns "discs". Enough to discover that the units worked well in a vacuum. I am skipping over this because its part of Pauls story and should rightfully be told in his words ...

Yep...that turned up in my original interest-digging expedition. I came across an online letter (undoubtedly familiar to this forum) ostensibly from TTB referencing the experiments at Société Nationale de Construction Aeronautique de Sud Ouest in 1955-1956, which purportedly eliminated ionic wind as constituting the motive force for the discs. I'm using "weasel words", aren't I...<sigh>

The waters surrounding the ionic wind vs anti-gravity effect are too murky for me to hope to fathom (so to speak). Before the weirdness grew too prohibitive, I did come across instances of some British tinkerer who'd (weasel-word-warning) allegedly demonstrated a working anti-grav application for no less a pound-worthy dude than Richard Branson, before subsequently (consequently?) disappearing into the shadows from which he sprang - perhaps motivated by patents pending, a faceful of egg-yolks, or a pang of vestigial dignity. Frankly, its the story that's the thing for me. I'm all about understanding the quirky forces that variously elevated and dragged at TTB during his wonderfully intriguing and lifelong pursuit; not whatever energies may (or may not) boost a tinfoil and balsa-wood toy a few inches above somebody's dorm-room floor. If the latter proves to be a feasible technology, COOL! But that ain't what moves me. Primarily.

<snip>

You ARE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, PART OF IT , part of the unfolding, expanding process. So again .... Welcome!

You say that your neighbor is "mad" ... but I suspect not. I suspect that he just knows MORE than he has been able to express (other than through the artwork that he has established there) .....Notice that it is ON YOUR PATH. Can you please tell me more about this individual? <snip>

Oh no...he's maaadddd! <hysterical Frankenstein laugh> Like, Thierry Ehrmann spent most of the 80's&'90's under a sort of "guardianship", which is the French way of handling an individual that would probably be institutionalized in the US. During this period (naturallement), he got into computers, and databases (The Serveur Group, which he founded), and the early Internet (implementing the "Pink" - ie - adult - sections of Minitel, which was a kind of primal www, rolled out to every French household by France Telecom), and finally, he discovered art. He then founded artprice.dom, which is the lexisnexis of fine art, used by auction houses and collectors to track prices and info on the most expensive objets. This is -currently - his major earning arm. The mansion is three estates up from ours, and the salamander figures heavily in the pastiche which his ruined (or decorated) walls and house depict. As do Enochian alphabetical characters, alchemical symbols, scenes from CNN, oil company logoes, mannequins in combat gear and gas masks, inverted trees, girders, etc. He inhabits the massive creation with his two wives (for reals) and their collective kids, battles with the village mayor in the French courts to maintain his ongoing "art" (recently took a loss in this war, prompting a petiotion drive), and hosts a few thousand visitors each Sunday, who come to peer into our comminity's various gates and snap pix of the whole fascinating tableau. And who can blame them.

I am actually extremely fortunate to be here to watch the controversy, since our expat deployment could very well have placed us in some boring three bedroom flat in the center of Lyon; rather than in this amazing and historical house and grounds. Should make for an interesting three years, non?

The title "Biefield-Brown Effect" appeared on one of the Chaos postcards (which are distributed on restaurant countertops and pasted to light poles all over the city), and then popped up as part of the series of photographs I posted links to...but the plaque afixed to the chopper-on-a-jeep thing bears some other title that I've now forgotten. If we take my visiting in-laws up there tomorrow on our de rigeur let-guests-look-at-the-chaos-house walk, I''ll note the new name. I'd originally put the etymology of this title down to an anti-big-oil/conventional energy agenda (which Ehrmann has, though he drives a huge Humvee down our carriage roads with no apparent sense of irony), but the whole gravity thing (ie - failure to fly) has newly piqued my interest, I must say...

Why the salamander question? I'm familiar with the alchemical associations, and there are some rare ones indigenous to the local area. I also felt Ehrmann may have adopted that particular image to iconify his own "from the fire" history (viz - his under-guardianship status, which ended only a couple of years ago).

I am fascinated by everything, truly.
[/quote]

Terry McKenna ... a name that has come up in our research. A friend of "Morgans" . So interesting also that you would mention him. MARKERS to show that we are indeed on the right path. Thank you so much! Elizabeth

Definitely need any info you can share on that connection (the Morgan thing)! I became mesmerized by the McKenna brothers via another (and equally incongruous track): "entheobotany" summing it up best, I guess....

Thanks again for letting me exercise my English! I have guests arriving soon, so please don't take a delayed response as flagging interest. I'm too prolix to hush readily...

dp

[Trickfox]

English speakers please stand by for a few posts until I get a few answers from colleagues near this scene. I'll be back (says the terminator)

****************************switching language *****************
Ça d'affaire à quoi tous cela?

T'on artiste n'est pas malade du tous, Il est simplement prix d'un désire de s'exprimer parceque il a une confli interne à résourde. Ce n'est pas le genre de savoir tout-a-faite ce qu'il sort de son cerveaux n'esce-pas.

Pascal, Peut tu nous en expliquer un peut plus sur cette situation?

C'est quoi au juste que le monsieur assaye de nous communiqué avec tous ces pieces d'art, -que plutôt tous le monde nous dit est le déga d'un cerveaux malade. C'est quoi tous juste cette affaire. Cela me semble une protestation contre la guerre, et cela ne semble rien du tout à avoire avec le forum ici.

Intéresent peut être mais ça n'a rien d'avoir avec le future sauf le principe que nous pourons tous nous trouvé dans le même sort que çe pauvre milliardaire, qui n'aurais jamais trouver les mathématiques de sa propre expression mentale.

C'est la confusion totale si on me le demande. Toi Pascal Qu'and dit tu mon homme?.

Répond ici s'il-te-plais
Raymond

****************back to English**************************

Look everyone, my friends and I will go over this with a fine tooth comb. Plenty of what JBM has said here is extremely pertinent however he is speaking in higher planes of thought than most readers are experienced with at the moment. Rupert Sheldrake is a bit more forward in his own timespace than the rest of us and it will take must further analysis to see where the link really lies in all of this.

Trickfox

[Victoria Steele]

JBM and others following this wierd salamander trail.

JBM I am totally fascinated by the input from your direction though I have NO IDEA where this is all leading I have the hunch that something important has just been revealed, we just don't see it yet.

I have called it the Salamander Trail because I noted that Elizabeth picked up on that right away and I would like to believe that I know enough about how she operates to note that she is also vested with what we all would call "inside information". So if she looks at Salamanders .... then .... I want to look at Salamanders.

Did you know that a salamander is "primarily a creature of water" ... Salamanders breathe through their skins and therefore know instantly of changes in thier environment ?.... One of the sites I checked regarding salamanders said that they represent a "transformation of ideas into reality."

And so ... who is this Thierry Ehrmann .... a quick check and I found out that he "makes no secret of his mystical past as a FREEMASON and alchemy nut" (and that his father was a member of Opus Dei??? What the ....... And his vision of "Chaos" is what he sees in the future?

I have a feeling, (just that) that this is the core of the information that Elizabeth has turned to ...... (am I right Elizabeth? Can you tell us more about why you took note of the "salamander reference") Victoria

[jbm]

Sorry - despite the kind assurances that this wasn't the case - for my off-topicness... Non-sequiturs can (and often do) turn out to be occulted clues, but I'm earnestly hoping not to burrow any dead-end side-tracks in what is already a convoluted rabbit hole. Again, the Sheldrake thing is pretty out there. Somehow (and this isn't meant in any way derisively), I think of the Brown work as being concrete and practical and applied...while Rupert's stuff is - by contrast - theoretical, intangible and...well...paradigmatic. In short - it's a interesting concept. Maybe only that.

I've a nasty habit of thinking at least one ogeima away from the primary focus (that's an obscure Go reference, and is an example of precisely this tendency). Sometimes, my gibberish may seem wired-in - but it tends easily to jabberwocky. No boast - this is an ongoing battle I wage with all intrapersonal communication (ask my wife!). And I'm just a newby here remember! Plenty of opportunities for me to toss less incongruent weirdness into the fracas will undoubtedly follow...

I remain very curious about the particular art piece with the original Biefield-Brown title (the Demeure du Chaos grounds were unexpectedly closed this afternoon). I am, though, trying to arrange an interview with Mr. Ehrmann, and will share any new developments on that front. Anti-Iraq war is just one piece of the dude's core message (no skin off my nose - though personally I'm anti-losing). Chaos seems to be, itself, one of those attractors that pull some people into invoking it where it doesn't apply. His maison is far from chaotic...more an ordered monument to 24-hours news channels and bourgeoisie self-loathing (with heat and motion-sensors). There are no non-linear equation tags in evidence - just elliptical aphorisms and such, spray-painted on every surface. Ehrmann also loves to cite Jacques Derrida's ideas on deconstruction as informing his cement and black paint creation - but, faced with the threat of his own edifice being torn down (alternatively, "restored to it's original condition") - and this literally rather than figuratively, he lawyers up and acts victimized.

I genuinely admire the bent-ness of it all.

I'll try and branch out into the mainstream (Ha!) discussions hereabouts (Trickfoxes Hotel thread is screaming at me) - but will keep watching. Thanks for the notes!

[Trickfox]

JBM

You are definately a very interesting person to listen too, and I really cannot wait to find out how your Chaotic anarchist neighbor managed to name one of his creation after Dr. Brown's work.

welcome to the forum.

trickfox

[twigsnapper]

Trickfox, jbm , all readers

Just wanted to respond to jbm message when he said that "My Shelrake seque was really just "free association".

Yes Sir! Absolutely. Now have you taken a few moments to consider what THAT might be. Smiling here. Twigsnapper