Two units, sending/receiving

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
twigsnapper
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one horse at a time

Post by twigsnapper »

You all know that I have always been partial to horses.

So lets take this one step at a time. Paul. You have been told about fat ponies. A person should at some point recognize that there are other equines out there that are much faster than that fat pony. If you want a simple explanation go to the words of a loving father trying to explain quantum mechanics to a horse crazy nine year old. Now, you think you are faced with a challenge? <g> perhaps echoing his words when the time is right may be a START in the right direction.

You said

"The common perception is that even gravity waves travel at the speed of light - I run into that perception often. Thus this idea of "instantaneous communication" via gravity waves contravenes the conventional wisdom. And it may well be that gravity waves traverse the universe instantly. But so far, nobody I've ever talked to has been able to explain how that works to me in a way that effectively nullifies the conventional wisdom."

Thats what we have been seeing. The common fat pony. twigsnapper
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Re: Just Saying does NOT make it so.......AGREED!

Post by Mikado14 »

Paul S. wrote:So, David, anybody... the floor is yours. Please make it clear. There may be third graders listening. And I might be one of them. I don't put my hand down until I'm satisfied with the answer.

--PS

Analogy 1

Imagine a tube filled with ping pong balls. Now imagine the tube one light year in length. Disregarding friction, push a ping pong ball in one end. A ping pong ball falls out the other end faster than light will travel.

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Chris Knight
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Post by Chris Knight »

Hi All,

Thought I'd throw in some comments, but I want to look at some assumptions and their source before I actually get into the speed of gravity issue:

Paul wrote:
Now, this is the point that I keep finding debatable. At the risk of exposing my own lack of perception, I keep asking: what is it about this "EGC" technology that enables this "instantaneous communication with anyone anywhere in the universe at any time." I've asked this question a number of times but have never gotten a satisfactory -- i.e. clear, concise, and comprehensible -- answer.

I realize that makes me guilty of making an assertion that I not 100% certain of (which is why I have adopted the fall-back, weasel-word methodology of "this is what I've been told...").

The common perception is that even gravity waves travel at the speed of light - I run into that perception often. Thus this idea of "instantaneous communication" via gravity waves contravenes the conventional wisdom. And it may well be that gravity waves traverse the universe instantly. But so far, nobody I've ever talked to has been able to explain how that works to me in a way that sufficiently supersedes the conventional wisdom.
Nature of Theories:

Paul and I have discussed the speed of gravity to some extent, but not really in too much depth. I can make a few comments, though...

First of all, Paul, there is no shame in saying, "this is what I've been told." We always rely on those supposed "experts" to distill information to us. Unfortunately, including the self-professing "experts," everyone has a pet-theory. For example, how often do you really hear about the serious holes and issues with the GUT, Superstring Theory, Big Bang Theory, Black Hole Origin Theory, Expansion Rate of the Universe Theory, and so on?

Theories are like noses, everyone has one, and however the public sways, determines which people are teaching in our schools and on the cover of Time magazine. Remember 20 years ago when the world was going to be destroyed in a Nuclear Winter? Now it's going to be destroyed in a Greenhouse Effect. The theories that persist are those elegant theories, which appear to most completely describe observed effects - the Theory of Relativity for example, which may not work in all conditions.

Source of Common Perception:

That said, let's look at the speed of gravity issue. You stated that the "common perception" is that gravity travels at the speed of light, and that is an opinion that the majority of people have been told or read. This common perception also may be the perception that lifters adequately demonstrate the Biefeld-Brown Effect as implied in the Myth-Buster's video you have provided on the first page of http://www.ttbrown.com.

My apologies to the people I am about to offend, but anyone who believes the current designs of the lifters adequately describes even a proof-of-concept for the Biefeld-Brown Effect seriously needs to go back and read a primer in basic electrostatics. However, that is the common perception.

Now, granted, there is some (very) minor residual gravitational effect due to the high voltages used, but the lifters are just not designed to maximize that characteristic.
Thus this idea of "instantaneous communication" via gravity waves contravenes the conventional wisdom.
Perhaps, but only based on what you have heard. I don't put all that much stock in conventional wisdom, especially when it comes to the structure of space. Horse sense, yes.

Remember our discussions regarding what I termed the "Linear Engine," which is a finalized Brown engine. By conventional wisdom, based on current electrical engineering understanding, it should not work. In fact, some aspects of the engine run in direct opposition to what would be anticipated in current electrical engineering teaching. That is why it has been (almost) impossible to reproduce.

Now, you know my leanings are obviously toward a more practical application of the speed of gravity rather than the theoretical explanation (which is also important, of course), so bear with me as I come in from an engineering point of view.

Theoretical Nature of Gravity:

Now onto gravity. There is no clear concensus as to what gravity is, where and how it originates, whether it is a push or pull, whether there are particles called gravitons, and so on.

From the document you and I briefly talked about a couple of weeks ago, Paul. The theory, as described by Townsend Brown, presented a structure of matter and space based on the electrical characteristics of the spatial structure. To be honest, it is one of the most elegant theories of the structure of space that I have ever read. It described the structure of matter and space from the subatomic level to macroscale galaxies, and the characteristics of electromagnetic radiation such as light.

Now, the kicker is, that the five fundamental forces of nature we observe (static electricity, magnetism, strong and weak nuclear force, and gravity) have only been partially explained with Maxwell's coupling of static electricity and magnetism. After that we get a bit lost.

Brown's theory described a situation in which the fundamental nature of the building blocks of matter took into account the electromagnetic-gravitational (there is more, but let's stick to gravity for now) as an inherent characteristic of matter.

Now, what that means in this theory is that the gravitational force is a fundamental characteristic of matter, and cannot be separated from it. Wherever there is matter, there is gravity. The two are inseparable.

Speed of Gravity:

So, what is the speed of gravity? I don't know, because I don't understand enough of the nature of spacetime. The human race is really like a babe in the woods when it comes to understanding the universe. We can see so very little of the miniscule amount of what we can observe, and have even less understanding of what we can actually see.

Remember that by gravity wave, we are talking about the propogation rate of a change in gravity at one location to the measurement of that gravitational change at another location at some distance. In order to answer your question, a Michelson-Morely-type experiment would be in order, but the units might have to be at as significant distance.

Is it layers of parallel universes stacked upon one another as Brown believed in the same location? Well then, yes, I suppose it would be felt instantaneously in all universes.

If gravity is an inherent building block of the structure of spacetime we observe, then it is possible to theorize that gravity, which is a part of the structure would behave differently that light, which by what Brown is implying, reacts to the nature of spacetime, rather than being an integral part of it. His theories imply that every particle of matter in the universe(s) is instantaneously "aware" of any change in the (collective) ambient gravitational field since that affects the very nature of its existence, or state of being.

From where I'm standing, it appears that Brown's theory has significant merit, but then again, I'm coming from a practical viewpoint - maximizing some effects, minimizing others, but always with the goal of producing practical applications from these theories rather than necessarily figuring out just how they work.

Andrew
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Last edited by Chris Knight on Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mikado's explanation

Post by Dr. Psy »

Quite Frankly I like Mikado's explanation much better. Trickfox has explained it to me exactly the same way.
Dr. Psy
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Re: one horse at a time

Post by Paul S. »

No, you're not hallucinating.

Yes, there was a post here.

No, it's not here any more.

Work in progress, remember?

--PS
Last edited by Paul S. on Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Paul Schatzkin
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Hand Still Up.

Post by Paul S. »

Mikado14 wrote:Imagine a tube filled with ping pong balls. Now imagine the tube one light year in length. Disregarding friction, push a ping pong ball in one end. A ping pong ball falls out the other end faster than light will travel.
That's actually a very useful analogy -- assuming, as you say, that the light-year long tube is FILLED with ping pong balls.

So, why are gravity waves like ping pong balls in your analogy?

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
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Bravo

Post by Paul S. »

Chris Knight wrote:From where I'm standing, it appears that Brown's theory has significant merit, but then again, I'm coming from a practical viewpoint - maximizing some effects, minimizing others, but always with the goal of producing practical applications from these theories rather than necessarily figuring out just how they work.
That's really quite a dissertation, Andrew, and I appreciate your taking the time to think and type it all out. There's really a lot to think about, so... lemme think about it before replying in more depth.

BTW, for those of you who are wondering: Andrew is referring to a document called "The Structure of Space" that Dr. Brown wrote while he was at Vega (or, at least, while he was in California...) in 1943. I don't think that document is available online any where; there are only a couple of copies floating around.

Because I am at that place in the primary chronology when that document was written, I've spent a little time (not NEARLY enough) looking at that document and Andrew and I have spend a little time (again, not NEARLY enough) trying to understand its meanings.

Some days I think the reason we're having this whole conversation about "bending time" is so that we can bend it in such a way to make the average day more like 28 or thirty hours... THAT might give us enough time to do all that goes undone in a typical 24 hour day...<g>

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Mikado14
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Re: Hand Still Up.

Post by Mikado14 »

Paul S. wrote:
Mikado14 wrote:Imagine a tube filled with ping pong balls. Now imagine the tube one light year in length. Disregarding friction, push a ping pong ball in one end. A ping pong ball falls out the other end faster than light will travel.
That's actually a very useful analogy -- assuming, as you say, that the light-year long tube is FILLED with ping pong balls.

So, why are gravity waves like ping pong balls in your analogy?

--PS
You do realize that we are over simplifying but here we go:

Imagine each ping pong ball is a nerve cell. (I would prefer something else but we will use that for a reason)

Mikado
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Re: Hand Still Up.

Post by Paul S. »

Mikado14 wrote: Imagine each ping pong ball is a nerve cell. (I would prefer something else but we will use that for a reason)
Neither analogy is working for me.

The "ping pong ball" analogy assumes space behaves like a solid. Are you suggesting space is solid?

The "nerve cell" analogy implies that information is transmitted electrically, like a nervous impulse. But electricity is a speed-of-light phenomenon.

So I still don't get how gravity transmits infinitely fast through infinite space.

Unless of course the space is not really there?

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
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Victoria Steele
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swimming in it

Post by Victoria Steele »

Paul, Just my coffee money down again.

I think of some of the things that the Russian wrote about ( Kozyrev?) when he said that the "aether" was "intelligent". Didn't he figure that the "aether" was a substance, sort of like an ocean? And if there is something that has sort of a "knowledge" then if one part of it is disturbed ,wouldn't the all of it know it? We are not playing by all of the rules drawn up before us now so maybe such a thing is possible.

Could that be why Dr. Brown was so interested in collecting rocks and hitching them up to recorders, so that he could monitor this exchange of "information". We are not talking about the speed of light here folks because light has nothing really to do with it. This is a different rabbit indeed.

This reminds me of the story Mark told about one of his students who asked him this question (Remember telling us this story Mark? The girl asked "If space is so empty, how can their be a black hole in it?" Chew on that junior rangers!

Victoria
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Browns paper

Post by grinder »

Paul,

Tell me that you didn't actually mean that this important paper of Browns ( of which there are only a couple of copies) is just " floating around" Please. You are making the hairs on the back of my neck stand straight up. (seems to happen alot around here from what I have read when things get really spooky. ) You can't actually mean that type of information is just OUT THERE. If so , are you going to publish it? What does Linda Brown say? Please tell me that all those copies are in a safe place, just for historical reasons if nothing else!

Hey Victoria, you home for good? Missed you!

grinder
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Re: Hand Still Up.

Post by Trickfox »

Paul S. wrote: So, why are gravity waves like ping pong balls in your analogy?

--PS
Now THERE is a good question!!!

Paul Mikado's answer is absolutely comprehensible to any teen ager.

Perhaps you need to look closely at his vision of the ping pong balls in the tube. Look REAL close at the balls. Look exactly where the balls actually touch together. The most extreme part of one sphere touches the most extreme part of the other ball, but there is empty space everywhere else (within the tube of course).

Let's take this anology further and imagine you are stuck in one of those new toddler playgrounds filled with 2 inch empty plastic multicolored balls.
You know those big plastic blow-up rooms with the balls in them.
Here is a picture:Image
Now picture these balls being PERFECT in every detail. each ball touches each other ball right at their most extreme points right?

In a perfect world the most outward vectored atom of each sphere nearly touch each other (or at least they interact at the Planck length lp) Depending upon the diameter of each sphere, there are only a certain amout of them that can surround ONE of the spheres. But in between all of them there is???? ......Empty space..... Right?


OK so let's get back to our toddler playground again and you are stuck in the middle of these balls.

Now If I have your playground surrounded and I can sense energy flow in every direction inwards towards you then whatever movement you decide to do I will instantaneously sense your movements as energy on the outer surfaces of the toddler playground.

In atomic scale structures nothing actually physically touches anything. At that level of "Smallness"several of the four known forces interact with molecules. common notions of physical interactions no longer apply so it's impossible to envision "balls in a tube getting pushed" anymore.

You are left only with the Planck Length, It's value, it's significance, and the fundamental physical constances which define the Planck Length.

Once you learn the complexities of the interactions between the four forces you begin to see a strange new world.

Oh, and by the way..... one of those fundamental constances that defines the Planck Length is............. The gravitational constance.:roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_constant
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Pick A Number

Post by Paul S. »

First,
Chris Knight wrote:Now, the kicker is, that the five fundamental forces of nature we observe (static electricity, magnetism, strong and weak nuclear force, and gravity) have only been partially explained with Maxwell's coupling of static electricity and magnetism. After that we get a bit lost.
...then
Trickfox wrote:At that level of "Smallness"several of the four known forces interact with molecules.
So, in the midst of all this other (very valuable) discussion re: the speed of gravity, could we also agree on how many "fundamental forces of nature" there are?

In my 'class,' there have always been four:

electromagnetism
gravity
strong force
weak force

to which Andrew now separates out and includes

electrostatic force (elecrostaicism?)

So, I guess I'm directing this question to Andrew: why do you treat "electrostatic" as something separate from electromagnetism? I understand the difference between electromagnetic and electrostatic, but why do you suppose the existing body of theory includes the latter within the former?

You might be right, maybe electrostatics should be treated as a separate and equal force. I'd just like to hear the argument why that should be the case. Pretend Brian Greene or Michio Kaku is listening. Convince them.

And I mean it when I say this discussion is valuable, and I hope you can all be patient with me as I leave my hand up until I absorb enough of this to be able to explain it to the next guy.

See you in the morning.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
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It's OK, Really

Post by Paul S. »

grinder wrote:Tell me that you didn't actually mean that this important paper of Browns ( of which there are only a couple of copies) is just " floating around" Please.
I didn't mean to imply that they are just "floating around." I mean that there are a few copies and they are in good safe hands.

However, I also don't mean to imply that any of this material is meant to be "secret." It has just never been published. If it were meant to be "secret," it would have gone with Dr. Brown on that flight to "San Antonio."
If so , are you going to publish it? What does Linda Brown say?
There are no plans for immediate publication of the entire "Structure of Space" paper, but I'm quite certain it is OK to discuss the ideas in the paper in the context of the work we're doing here. The possibility of publication of the whole document can be left open for future consideration.

Mr. Twigsnapper might be able to shed some further light on the disposition of that particular document. I think the fact that it is not in "The Library" is all we really need to know for now.

Hair lying back down again now?

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
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Oh owe

Post by Trickfox »

This is getting pretty interesting isn't it Mr. Twigsnapper?

I suppose we are going to forage the SCALAR fields next... right Andrew?

I mean seperating the electric field from magnetism, wow....

How are you gona xplain the whole reformulated Maxwell field equation to Paul?

I think it's a heavi-side argument personally.

Go ahead Andrew! I'm with you here.

Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
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