Sanskrit

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
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LongboardLOVELY
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Sanskrit

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

I propose that Paul puts all the various forum discussions about Sanskrit under this heading. And if/when he does, I will respond to Mr. Twigsnapper's discussion questions about Mandarin Chinese, Mandari (or Menderi as I have seen it) and the history and uses of Sanskrit between the great Wars.

Linda B.
Trickfox
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basic ideas

Post by Trickfox »

Linda
I am a complete newbie when it comes to acient languages but I need an idea of the basics.
Does it read downwards like oriental or from right to the left (as in Hebrew etc?
Is it composed of several dozen pictograms?

Is there a common thread in these pictograms between Menderi and Sanskrit?

Where can I obtain a primer?

Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Paul S.
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Follow The Yellow Brick Road

Post by Paul S. »

LBolland wrote:I propose that Paul puts all the various forum discussions about Sanskrit under this heading. And if/when he does, I will respond to Mr. Twigsnapper's discussion questions about Mandarin Chinese, Mandari (or Menderi as I have seen it) and the history and uses of Sanskrit between the great Wars.
PHPBBS (the software platform that runs these forums) doesn't give me the ability to move individual posts from one topic to another. So here are links to the places where the word "sanskrit" appears in previous posts throught the site. If somebody spelled it differently, I couldn't find those posts using the search function.

Here then are previous references to Sanskrit, in approximate chronological order:

viewtopic.php?p=299#299

viewtopic.php?p=918#918

viewtopic.php?p=1354#1354

viewtopic.php?p=1511#1511

viewtopic.php?p=1819#1819

viewtopic.php?p=1820#1820

viewtopic.php?p=1868#1868

viewtopic.php?p=1869#1869

viewtopic.php?p=1900#1900


Actually, it's kind of interesting to revisit some of these old posts and see some of the topics we've talked about that have since fallen by the wayside. The very first one in the list, for example, is a reponse a post from Victoria Steele from March of this year that has some interesting links that are worth following...someday.

I have my own thoughts on why this discussion of Sanskrit might be important to our discussions here, why it was important to people like Beau Kitselman and Robert Oppenheimer, but I'd like to hear what others might have to say on the subject first because, well... I'm just not quite there yet...

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Victoria Steele
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hidden language

Post by Victoria Steele »

Was it Mark C who said that a good way to communicate within a covert operation would be to pick a language that was dead? So, if the Caroline Group had a need to communicate within its members, and it decided to use sanskrit as the language, then follow the lead here folks, we all need to look very carefully at those who were studying sanskrit. Not just because of the ancient secrets that the language might have a link to but because of its possible use by the Caroline Group. Maybe this is a way of identifying members Paul?

I note that Mr. trickfox has expressed a sudden interest in the language. Just trying to keep up with the possibilities here. Victoria
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Sanskrit

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

Linda
I am a complete newbie when it comes to acient languages but I need an idea of the basics. Does it read downwards like oriental or from right to the left (as in Hebrew etc? Is it composed of several dozen pictograms?


I am not sure if ancient (this is the one you want to learn right?) Sanskrit used Ideograms or Pictograms. It looks more like Farsi (of current day) or any of the Indo-Aryan derivative descendants. I believe it reads left to right. I guess with Romanization all those languages can be read left to right. Most current documents (hindu I mean) are Romanized.
Is there a common thread in these pictograms between Menderi and Sanskrit?
Well, Menderi was a derivative term for Mandarin, Malay derivative to be exact. No such language exists.
Where can I obtain a primer?
That's like telling you to learn how to swim by jumping into the Hudson! It would be very difficult to learn ancient sanskrit out of a book. Ok, maybe you could get good at pronouncing a few words and phrases with the Romanization version, but it’s impossible to learn a lost language like that out of a book. I'd try a local University with a language department, or I hear it’s being revived in Mattur if you're up for a trip !

Honest suggestion? Immerse yourself in the language. That’s how you’ll learn. And don’t swim in the Channel first; swim in shallow waters first. Try studying a modern language that has its roots in Sanskrit, like Persian, Balkan, Or even Hindu.

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Sanskrit is mainly used in India. It is the oldest attested of the Indo-European languages. Indo-European languages comprise a family of several hundred languages and dialects including most of the major languages of Europe, South, Southwest, Central Asia. Contemporary languages in this family include Hindi, Spanish, English, Portuguese, Bengali, Russian, French, German and Punjabi. It is considered the originator of most of the languages in India. As a high level Indo-European language, one time, it had widespread influence on the people in Asia and Northern regions (including part of Russia.) Unfortunately, over a long time period, due to conquests and expansionism, it stayed concentrated mainly in India/Nepal region. For example, there is an original word "sthaana" (Romanization) in Sanskrit meaning place, which is now changed to stan (Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Turkministan, Afganistan, et cetera) indicating that the language was circulated in these regions. (India is called Hindusthan, as beliefs in the region are termed as Hindu, of people living beyond Sindhu river, which is now called Indus.)

In answer to one of Mr. Twigsnapper’s comments, the English term "Mandarin" comes from the Portuguese mandarim, borrowed from Sanskrit mantrin "minister". There was a Buddhist document written in Sanskrit, that found it’s way into Southern China and is where the Sanskrit influence hit China. I once knew the name of that document, or prayer, or book or whatever it was.

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Ok, goodnight

Linda B.
Last edited by LongboardLOVELY on Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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following the trail back

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Linda.

Thank you so much for your studied response to all of our questions about Sanskrit!

Trickfox! maybe this gives you more of a handle on the difficulty faced in even "learning more about " the language, not even considering actually "learning" the language. The word "obscure" takes on a whole new meaning right? But there are important things to learn on your trail. Do not despair. Brilliant math experts and scientists were studying sanskrit for many different reasons, all of them important for their work.

But also notice one thing. Sanskrit is so buried in antiquity that even its importance to our languages as a whole is lost and buried as well! How many of you all knew that so many of the words we speak now could be traced back to a strange language called sanskrit?

Thankyou Linda for taking the time that you took to get that information together for us.

Anyone else out there who might be able to have suggestions for Trickfox?
Thank you for any suggestions and comments you might be able to add to the forum here. Elizabeth
Trickfox
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reduction to binary

Post by Trickfox »

Well everyone, I really do not need to learn modern Sansckrit at all. It is the MATHEMATICAL LOGIC of this language that is important. When reduced to binary principles it becomes significant to orthogonal functions.

I found that out earlier in another part of the forum. The significance is lost in modern use of Sanskrit.

Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
twigsnapper
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lost in modern use.

Post by twigsnapper »

Trickfox. Good man. Twigsnapper
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Re: reduction to binary

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

Trickfox wrote:Well everyone, I really do not need to learn modern Sansckrit at all. It is the MATHEMATICAL LOGIC of this language that is important. When reduced to binary principles it becomes significant to orthogonal functions.

I found that out earlier in another part of the forum. The significance is lost in modern use of Sanskrit.

Trickfox
I know exactly what you are talking about, sir. I had a few references that pointed to how one could study Linguistic logic from that time. I'll see if I can dig them up today.

Linda
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
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Post by LongboardLOVELY »

Trickfox
Not exactly the references I had in mind; but new ones I've found:

Table of contents for Language and grammar : studies in mathematical linguistics and natural language / edited by Claudia Casadio, Philip J. Scott, and Robert A. G. Seely.
http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/ecip059/2005006327.html

Hubey, H.M. (1994) Mathematical and Computational Linguistics, Mir Domu Tvoemu, Moscow, Russia, ISBN 5-87553-001-4
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/linguist/issue ... 483.html#1

I think Dr. Mark Hubey can be contacted at Montclair University in New Jersey, C.S. Dept.

Good luck

Linda B.
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
LongboardLOVELY
Junior Birdman
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Sanskrit and the German Swastika

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

Here's something ya'all may find interesting:

THE ANCIENT SWASTIKA SYMBOL

The Swastika is a very old sacred symbol from near-prehistoric times and referred to in Germany as the Hakenkreuz. Traditionally a sign of good fortune and well-being, its name is derived from the Sanskrit 'su' meaning 'well' and 'asti' meaning 'being'. For thousands of years the Swastika symbol gave courage, hope and security to millions. It is well-known in Hindu and Buddhist cultures and used by the Aryan nomads of India in the Second Millennium B.C. Unfortunately, Nazism has turned the Swastika into a hate symbol. In his book Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote 'In the red we see the social idea of the movement, in the white, the Nationalist idea and in the swastika the vision of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man.'
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Almost every race, religion and continent honoured the swastika from American Indians and Buddhists to Aztecs and neolithic tribes.

It is thought the swastika forms a combination of four 'Ls' standing for Luck, Light, Love and Life.

The circumstances of how the Nazis came to use the symbol are disputed but it is believed Dr Friedrich Krohn, a dentist, designed the classic Nazi swastika in 1919.

Dr Krohn acknowledged the ancient Buddhist use of the symbol and argued that the Nazi swastika should point anti-clockwise because to Buddhists this signifies "fortune and well-being".

But Hitler demanded that it point clockwise, which to Buddhists signifies ?cessation? or ?away from God?.

Linda B.
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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making flags

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Thankyou very much Linda for the time that you have spent finding that infromation for us.

It does seem strange that Hitler would pick that symbol but I am sure that it fit his purpose, as did his "expeditions to India and Tibet" looking for the source of the "Aryan man".

This is worth a discussion. Do you all think that he was ACTUALLY looking for the source of this "Master race?" and if he was looking for the roots of the master race that he was planning on linking to the German people why then would he have to go to Tibet and India to find them there? Apparently there were age old legends that he had heard.

But, I wonder, did he actually believe that there was a connection between those ancient people and the German populace? or did he just NEED that populace to believe that they were somehow much more special than the other humans around them. You know if you can convince people that they are somehow "above" their neighbors then you offer them the mentality that there is no one out there who will call them to account for the attrocities that they may deem necessary to rid themselves of " inferior" humans. They suddenly are invested with the RIGHT to treat other humans .... well, inhumanely.

Its been my thought that whether or not he actually believed in the ancient Vedic stories and the "supermen" myths, he needed to "borrow" those myths to promote his own agendas. Am I making sense? Discussion? Elizabeth
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Junior Birdman
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The Aryan myth

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:
This is worth a discussion. Do you all think that he was ACTUALLY looking for the source of this "Master race?" and if he was looking for the roots of the master race that he was planning on linking to the German people why then would he have to go to Tibet and India to find them there? Apparently there were age old legends that he had heard.
He was a bizarre man. The fact that he went to Tibet and India was proof of that. There are stories that have been told of his fanatical belief that a "master race" existed and that there were chosen ones with blue eyes blond hair who lived in Southeast Asia. Whether that is true or not is debatable. I understand from my relatives who have since passed on that there were some Northwestern Asians with those traits; but that was probably b/c they were descendants of the original Indo-European "Tribes". Such as those found in Russia or Western Mongolia.

...You know if you can convince people that they are somehow "above" their neighbors then you offer them the mentality that there is no one out there who will call them to account for the attrocities that they may deem necessary to rid themselves of " inferior" humans. They suddenly are invested with the RIGHT to treat other humans .... well, inhumanely....
Exactly.
Its been my thought that whether or not he actually believed in the ancient Vedic stories and the "supermen" myths, he needed to "borrow" those myths to promote his own agendas. Am I making sense? Discussion? Elizabeth


I can't wait to hear what others have to say regarding these things. :roll:

Linda B.
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
twigsnapper
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green eyes

Post by twigsnapper »

Linda B.

Yes, you have to watch those green-eyed Russian types. Their bloodlines go back a very long way.

I am inviting those of you who are global historians to step forward with this discussion because this is an endlessly rich subject and as Paul has realized, there is a lot of material out there, not all of it will fit into his book. But its boundlessly interesting.

And speaking of the movie "Enigma". Did you notice Paul, what was hiding the key?

I rather liked the movie actually, though it spends alot of time "explaining itself" I supposed that was necessary in a world that generally had the comment " Bletchley Who." Someone spent alot of time in costuming.

And Paul, Take a look at the blonde, unnattached and actually unidentified, at the end of the movie. I believe that her name was "Claire" but for my two cents .... as the main character noted .... as long as she was out there she would be a "sword". Her name should have been "Caroline". Twigsnapper
twigsnapper
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at the end of a shovel

Post by twigsnapper »

Paul, Linda and Trickfox

Back on our discussion of the Vedic texts.

Trickfox: I think that you have noticed in the things that happen here on the forum that the information that you THINK that you need iinitially shows up in unexpected forms. I noted your interest in learning sanskrit, but the language itself is not the prize for you. Its the answer to the question "WHY WAS OPPENHEIMER TRANSLATING THE VEDIC VERSES HIMSELF?"

You know there is much to be said for recognizing the possibility that the man at the end of th shovel, when he unearths something new, is not necessarily capable of interrpretting what he has found. Yet in this world, He who discovers something can generally describe its properties and its history to the rest of us. Still though, I hope you can see, he is just basically the bloke at the end of the shovel.

Why did Dr. Brown have as his partner a man who was also TRANSLATING VEDIC VERSE HIMSELF.

Because ............... in the earlier translation something very important was lost. Anybody understand what that might have been and how that might have happened? Throwing the gauntlet out here to Pauls advisory group. What can you make of that? Twigsnapper
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