SPECIAL OPERATIONS

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
Victoria Steele
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SPECIAL OPERATIONS

Post by Victoria Steele »

Help me out here folks.

Thats the only post title I could think of that might cover what we are trying to talk about here.

And Mr. Twigsnapper I invite you to be the "Chairman of this post" though I don't know if you will accept or have time to overlook what is happening here. I hope that this area will give you and perhaps others a chance to just talk about the various different faces and histories of "special operations" in the past. Whether they link directly to Dr. Browns work or not. Its FASCINATING.

So here it is. Don't know where this subject will lead us, but thats the joy of this road. Calling on the "Controlling Unknown" from this point on. Victoria
twigsnapper
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"Blue water " strategy

Post by twigsnapper »

Victoria,

Thank you for this. As you can see. I was just waiting.

Anybody out there recognize the phrase "blue water strategy"?

Thats what England was having to employ. The tide had turned for her and she had learned not to line her colorful redcoats up in a row, trusting that she had the overpowering force. The Americas taught her that. Now she was the weaker force, facing a continental army of horrifying intend and scope. The English leaders knew that they could not go toe to toe with Hitler and win ... so blue water strategy came into play. I understood it to mean ..... take the enemy out where he couldn't touch bottom. And we did that by waging a quiet war that would tire Hitlers forces, trying also to buy time until the United States could be urged to join in the war.

It meant working with the Russians at first to divide Hitlers attention, Economic blockades .... a strong arial bombing campaigne .... and then, of course .... supporting the resistance in each country. Special Forces.

Most of the war even the American troops didn't regard special ops all that highly. Patton .... well, you know Patton. It wasn't a good plan unless it was a massive plan. Blowing up a single bridge, disrupting communications between units ... well, that was hardly grand enough.

So groups like those in Operation Jedburgh were just sort of overlooked in history. Marks father was in one of those teams. I know that because I was in one too. There were supposed to be 100 of those teams sent out. I don't think the number quite reached that.

And yes, the training was important.

One of the men involved in those teams was an older officer by the name of Aaron Bank. He just died a few years ago of a grand old age, over one hundred.

Hello Camp Pendleton! I need some of you guys out there to join this discussion! Don't prove to an old soldier that you guys don't remember your roots. I know you do. So lets hear about Bank and your own history and how , without him, you might be sitting on radioactive rubble. Enough of a challenge sirs?

Twigsnapper
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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never heard of him

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Twigsnapper,

Thank you so much for your comments.

I haven't had a chance to greally look for some of the names that you mentioned but of course you know that I will be hot on that trail soon, taking notes as I go.

But I did rather immediately call a friend of mine who was a Sargent Major in the Marine Corp, based at Camp Pendleton and I read your last post and then asked him who Aaron Bank was and his immediate response was "Never heard of him".

Now I am placed in an extremely uncomfortable position between two gentlemen I admire greatly. Is this an either or situation? Is there some reason that my friend with deep roots in the Camp Pendleton community has "never heard " of someone that Mr. Twigsnapper counts as very important? How can this be? Going back to researching.... all of the rest of you, please help out if you have any comments. I ran into a faceful of dirt on my first attempt! Perhaps there are reasons. I dunno.

Paul, see what happens when you leave your little herd? Its like someone just yelled STAMPEDE! No telling where we will be when you get back! Elizabeth
grinder
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out of the box

Post by grinder »

Elizabeth and Twigsnapper,

Possibly your Sargent Major is just thinking about the Marine Corps and has not considered looking outside the box. An Aaron Bank is considered the "FATHER OF THE GREEN BERETS" (Army) and according to a really quick google search was responsible later for increasing the security for San Onofre. So on this, I'll side with Mr. Twigsnapper.

Again, a very good situation of people in the present not realizing the gifts from the past. Nothing against the Sargent Major, its just not current history and unfortunately, my reaction was the same before I started looking Aaron Bank up. Looks like this is for all of us .... an exercise in opening eyes.

grinder
Paul S.
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Location: Psych Ward

Great Thread

Post by Paul S. »

Just taking a moment from communing with the fish to note this thread, and the very important and valuable material that is coming to light as a result of Victoria's endless curiosity and dedication, and thanks also to Twigsnapper's willingness to share what he can.

And also a deep nod to Mark Culpepper for showing up here, and asking such questions. Geez, who knew? How many of us now have been drawn into this web for one reason, only to find ourselves stuck to the material for another...??

I have one observation to make... I'm not really sure how to word it... but as these secrets begin coming to light, I just have this deepening sense that what we're going to call "The Caroline Group" was very much at the center of event of global proportions. I'm suddenly seeing the whole of WWII as a grand "Caroline" drama. I'm not really sure what I mean by that, but there it is. There's definitely something going on here, Mr. Jones... and not just as recently as the 1940s, would be my guess.

So, by all means, continue the discussion.

BTW, Mr. Twigsnapper, Ann (who is reading a Stephenson bio on the beach while I'm reading "Alice in Wonderland) wants to know: were YOU ever at "Camp-X" ?

We all return now to our regular programming (yeah...right).

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
twigsnapper
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Post by twigsnapper »

Ann and Paul.

Ann, thank you for asking, but no, I was never at Camp X. I did have the dubious pleasure of being at an American Camp that was later called "Camp David". At the time I was visiting there though, we were generally blowing things up. I was there as a "liaison officer"and as an instructor/observer. I trust that it will not take Mark C. too much longer to uncover that history. It might prove to be interesting to your story Paul.

One of my companions used a concoction that someone else had dreamed up. (was muffins, baked ), but decidedly not edible, quite. One cupcake would put a good sized hole in whatever it was lobbed at. Everyone was told that the interesting stuff was not edible but still one uninformed fellow managed to take a bite. The gritty stuff just about killed him, but it sure looked good. Talk about hiding interesting things in plain sight. Twigsnapper
Last edited by twigsnapper on Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Victoria Steele
Mysterious Redhead
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A grey fish?

Post by Victoria Steele »

In all of the things that must have been floating around you at the time you choose a grey fish. How UNIQUE! you trying to rub it in? Keeping even the sight of all those wonderful bright fish all to yourself I'll just bet. I'll get even <g>. (HONEST, KIDDING, VERY PRETTY FISH)

Paul, you made a very interesting statement about the Caroline Group being at the "center" of the drama that was WWII .... toward what purpose? Was this a group bent on making money from the war? Thats what usually happens. So did our dear scientist fall into a bad crowd then?

I can't really get much of a take on you Mr. Twigsnapper but maybe I just want to believe you are a good guy. Maybe a dangerous good guy, if such a thing exists, but a good guy at heart.

I should know . I am somehow always drawn to that type (that includes Morgan) .... so are these the "rough men" standing in harms way while we sleep? Or are you Twigsnapper .... a rough man, out for your own benefit? I have not completely given up on the idea that maybe the Caroline Group was a type of economic Mafia..... so maybe I should wonder about your agenda in all of this?

No real offense Twigsnapper? I thought what you did for Mark C. regarding the information on his father was truly a touching move, because I can see no other purpose in telling it. But no, wait . There is another purpose, isn't there? Or you wouldn't even be communicating with us. So why the additional information now, I wonder? Helping Paul seems to be the main reason, but I have to consider that there might be more.

I may be a romantic, but I am also a realist in a very tough world. Victoria
twigsnapper
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needs romantics

Post by twigsnapper »

Victoria,

Ah, my dear but the world needs romantics. You are a very smart lady who has perhaps missed her calling. Twigsnapper
twigsnapper
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don't forget the ladies

Post by twigsnapper »

To all reading about the exploits and adventures of some of the very brave men (thinking particularly of Sir William and Dr. Brown at this moment) Please do not forget to look at the contributions of the ladies who operated behind the scenes too. Many have not had their stories even whispered.

But of those whose names have come to the front ...... There was a girl I mentioned before in this forum, I think ..... the gestapo called the "White Mouse". She could blow a bridge better than anyone you have ever seen.(and come away without her nylons even being crooked.) Not many people ever knew that she managed to save a young airman and show him across the mountains into Spain. He returned eventually to air combat even though it was against all the rules at the time . (Once helped by the resistance you were never supposed to be returned to combat where the possibility existed that you would perhaps be recaptured .... and then talk about the network that had helped you).... that young man went on to become General Chuck Yeager..

You don't need to know all the details but I would like you to at least be aware that she and other girls of the same brave deportment belonged to a network operating out of occupied Paris. .... they were a formitable and awesome force to be reckoned with. Another girl went by the name " Madeleine".

There were other agents operating in the United States, working directly for Sir William. One was his lead secretary .... we called her "amazing Grace" ..... then there was Elizabeth Thorpe .... who went by the name of Cynthia. There were many many other brave women whose names have never come to light.

So, as I said ... while its complimentary for all the men to delve into their brave moments, I say again to Paul .... please, don't forget the women. Twigsnapper
jennifer mccormick
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Location: Camp Pendleton

AARON BANK?

Post by jennifer mccormick »

TO ELIZABETH DRAKE ON QUESTIONS ABOUT AARON DRAKE- I HAVE BEEN RESEARCHING THE NAME, AND HAVE HAD NO LUCK FINDING ANYTHING. WE ARE CURRENTLY STATIONED IN CAMP PENDLETON WITH THE UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS. SORRY WE COULD NOT BE OF ANY HELP TO YOU.-SGT. McCORMICK
grinder
Senior Officer
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in the box

Post by grinder »

Sgt. McCormick,

I can understand that those you may have asked would not have known about Aaron Bank. He was Army and Mr. Twigsnapper threw us all sort of a loop when he asked you guys at Camp Pendleton about him. But the reference there is the San Onofre power station. And I think that Mr. Twigsnapper knew what he was doing somehow.

Bank was to become known as the father of the Army special forces ... "The Green Berets" .... He noted later in his career that the Power plant right there at your back yard only had one private guard on the place. (as if their only worry was graffitti). He stormed the halls of Washington and finally got better armed security there .... (Wackenhut I think but I could be wrong)

Thats what Mr. Twigsnapper was saying I think but maybe he also was reminding all of us that we can sometimes live in a box without realizing it. And its good sometimes to take a look around.

Appreciate all that you guys do ........ grinder
Victoria Steele
Mysterious Redhead
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names not even whispered

Post by Victoria Steele »

To Mr. Twigsnapper,

I loved the phrase that you used ......"Names not even whispered"

Damn. That paints a very clear picture of the service that so many women must have provided, and yet their names were never mentioned. I know its normally a bad deal. We are still living in a chauvinistic world but I do see light there somewhere, especially when someone like Mr. Twigsnapper becomes such a champion for those women.

More to you! Cheers! ..... Heres to the ladies! .... the "names never even whispered". Victoria
twigsnapper
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names never whispered

Post by twigsnapper »

Welcome home Paul.

I 've gotten kind of wrapped in that subject "names never whispered" and I have more to say while you are looking and searching in the Jedburgh area. Know that much of that information is still classified. You will run into that phrase. When that happens ask yourself, what would it be that would STILL be of interest. Mark where the curtain falls and then go around another way.

Tidbits I can mention. You will read that these "Jedburgh teams" were UNIFORMED.

(NOT NECESSARILY.) Hitler had issued what was called his "commando order" which meant that anyone caught and considered a "commando" was immediately shot so it didn't really matter a hill of beans if you were caught in uniform or not. It was pretty much over. Nearly half of these Jedburgh teams never made it home.

And it all depended on what your agenda in all of this was. Those bent on pure disruption (blowing bridges, peeing in gas tanks, hey.... whatever) they operated on one level.

Then there were those bent on collecting information on the location of technical or scientific information. Those teams tended to be operating wrapped even tighter in a veil of secrecy. Not in uniform. Sometimes, not even the other teams knew who they were.

Mark, your Dad was in this category.


This was an earlier version of what the Americans later called the TICOM units, but make no mistake, the prototypes for that operation can be found in the actions of some of the Jedburgh groups. And because those special Jeds were involved in intelligence gathering .... you won't see them mentioned. Just note that most everything that America did in this field was based on a form that the English had already established.

And Paul, you already know how all this fits in to your story.
Ah, theres my morning spout. Twigsnapper
LongboardLOVELY
Junior Birdman
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Special Ops

Post by LongboardLOVELY »

Twigsnapper, et. al,

I seem to remember studying in High School something 'bout the Jedburgh units and also how special ops became unpopular during Kennedy's brief reign. I also remember something called the Flexible Response doctrine, which made counterinsurgency unpopular. Does anyone with a more elaborate history background remember this?

How does these special ops that are still classified fit into the whole arena of the Middle East Conflict? I know that there was still background work going on during Desert Storm. I had colleagues who had to leave school to go fight because they were professionals in the military.

Linda
Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage - to move in the opposite direction. ~ Albert Einstein
twigsnapper
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as important now

Post by twigsnapper »

Linda B.

In response to your question. I imagine intelligence gathering is as important now as it ever was. And no matter how advanced the technology may be .... there is nothing that quite matches the interaction and oneupsmanship of human to human intelligence gathering. And I would expect that sort of thing is happening on a 24 hour basis, everywhere. And it will continue.

Twigsnapper
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