WHAT PAUL KNOWS, AND QUESTIONS

Here is where we focus on separating the facts from the fiction, identifying what we KNOW from what what we DON'T KNOW about the life and work of Townsend Brown

WHAT PAUL KNOWS, AND QUESTIONS

Postby Mark Culpepper » Mon May 29, 2006 3:08 pm

I thought that this might make an interesting little pool for those of us who are actively following Pauls chapters here and feel that we have something directly to say to him as he goes along this path.

And he just recently made the statement that one of his sources had asked the question "What do you know?"

With the inference that Paul had to find out where he stood THERE before much more information would be sent in his direction.

So I thought, OK. Maybe all of us could help Paul visualize and clarify what he DOES know.

HOW TO DO THAT? What I am going to do is reread what he had written so far and come up with what I think is OBVIOUSLY what Paul believes he actually knowsAT THIS POINT. Then perhaps we can ask questions about the unknowns which will help him see other things that he actually knows. MAYBE HE KNOWS STUFF HE DOESN'T KNOW HE KNOWS YET! How about that for a twisted sentence.

OK. I go first. Paul KNOWS that the young Brown family are in Zanesville Ohio in the winter of 1936. They have been running their Hawthorne club but by the next spring it is sold at Auction. His information is solid there.

So what happens next? The other solid pieces of information he mentions were letters from various high positioned people trying to keep Brown and his project in the Navy. But if he is running a club in Zanesville, obviously .... that didn't work? So what happens now? HEY ... TO OTHERS OF YOU OUT THERE. EVEN IF WE HAVE TO "TALK AMONGST OURSELVES" HERE that might be a good thing! Mark C
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study group

Postby Victoria Steele » Mon May 29, 2006 3:58 pm

What an excellent idea Mark. A STUDY GROUP ON THE LIFE OF TOWNSEND BROWN. Take what Paul has said that he knows, develop our own questions and then toss them around between us , and see what happens. YOU ARE BRILLIANT

Because I can see that this is something that Paul himself couldn't do alone. Oh, I am sure he can talk to himself alot, but when he answers? How valid are those answers. Its like a losed loop system. But, see, we are different! Each one of us has a different base and because of that we are going to react to those FACTS differently.

For example, the things that strike Paul or Mark.Trickfox, Andrew, and even the honored Mr. Twigsnapper ... ( or the other guys in the forum) might not even hit me at all! But Lisa and Annemarie and Madison and of course Elizabeth ... we all have the feminine thing going for us. This is a good suggestion!...... Its what we have been doing all along but this particular post will follow the form that Mark has set up..... first state what we think we all KNOW about Townsend Brown...... then a question .....lets see, a contribution? Lemme think on that for awhile! Victoria
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GMTA

Postby Paul S. » Mon May 29, 2006 4:10 pm

Well now, here's a prime example of "Great Minds Thinking Alike." I was just prowling around the forums a little this morning, and took note of my tendency to not answer a lot of questions. I had the thought "there should be one place where people could post questions aimed directly at me..." and, lo and behold, I discover that the thread was started about the same time I was having that thought. Now THERE's a "tremor in the force..."

Given this opportunity, I should probably say how grateful I am to have enlisted the help of all the other interested parties who share a genuine desire to get to the truth of the mysteries underlying the life of Towsend Brown. How grateful I am to have the aid of a dedicated cadre of well-informed seekers who all come to the table with their their own well-tuned bullshit detectors fully activated.

So, yes by all means, we've reached an excellent point here to begin taking stock of "what we know." If that helps us all get a better grip on what we don't know, then at least we'll know what we're looking for to make this book the breakthrough that it deserves to be.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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1936 and 1937

Postby Paul S. » Mon May 29, 2006 5:03 pm

Mark Culpepper wrote: OK. I go first. Paul KNOWS that the young Brown family are in Zanesville Ohio in the winter of 1936. They have been running their Hawthorne club but by the next spring it is sold at Auction. His information is solid there.

So what happens next? The other solid pieces of information he mentions were letters from various high positioned people trying to keep Brown and his project in the Navy. But if he is running a club in Zanesville, obviously .... that didn't work? So what happens now?


Mark, etal,

Before you get to "what happens next," I need to alert you all to something that I realized a tad belatedly (for Chapter 35) about what else was going on in Zanesville circa 1935. I've just posted some additional info:

http://forum.ttbrown.com/viewtopic.php?p=1447#1447

I started to post it here, but figured better to put it there, since it should have been in Chapter 35, and leave this space open for more generaly type questions rather than focusing this discussion on that particular detail, which can be treated over in Chapter 35-land.

--PS
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aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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Bullshit detectors

Postby Victoria Steele » Mon May 29, 2006 5:14 pm

You are absolutely right Paul.

Somehow and for some reason you seem to have collected around you a group of highly motivated "bullshit detectors" .

Your saving grace has been your absolute reluctance to join all those other "bullshit artists" that have been out there writing about Thomas Townsend Brown . (Yes, be you un named, you all know who you are!).

I say that it has been your saving grace because I hope you realize by now that if you hadn't stuck to your guns about avoiding all those weasel words and if you hadn't made it such a passion to stick with qualified material ....... we would have all ripped you to shreds. In fact, I have to admit, I joined this forum just WAITING for you to make a mistep. So you have saved yourself and I think have gained enough of our respect (speaking for myself here but I think that it can be an accepted statement maybe for the rest) to enlist our respect and help further. So, am I "signed up" for this group? We don't need no stinking Bed and Breakfast, we don't need no badges! Victoria
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no badges needed

Postby Mark Culpepper » Mon May 29, 2006 9:44 pm

I agree with Victoria. I don't think that we need any badges. In fact, I don't believe we even need to "sign up" with this forum group. My opinion is that somehow we were invited to this forum a long time ago. Just don't ask me to explain that statement.

And Paul, a suggestion. This Post I think is more important than the heading of "Townsend Browns life". It is going to have a life of its own and really does need to be alone so that people can find it, read it, join it, if they want. And where it is now is just too difficult to find. I even lost it a few minutes ago and had to go searching, forgetting where it was.

So is that possible? Mark C.
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Where Should It Go?

Postby Paul S. » Mon May 29, 2006 9:55 pm

Mark, what are you suggesting? Do you want me to start a new top-level topic for this thread, or do you want me to move it to an existing top-level topic.

If the former, what would you suggest for the topic title? If the latter, which?

--PS
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aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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top level topic

Postby Mark Culpepper » Mon May 29, 2006 11:04 pm

Since you asked so nicely <g>

Top level topic, definitely. Out there where everybody can see it easily.

And perhaps you could have some instructions with it, to keep the discussions from running off in another direction. A little class room control here.

1.)State the situation as you understand it. (As in ....." Paul has said that Townsend Brown lived in Zanesville Ohio.) Simply the "WHAT PAUL KNOWS part of it"

2.) Then respond by asking ONE OR TWO QUESTIONS that have been generated, LIMITED to that particular statement .... "When did he leave Zanesville for the last time?, and where did he go?"

Thats just an example, I would pose that question because I have wondered myself how long it would take this young couple to leave the confines of a small town and make a home elsewhere and I was curious about where they would chose to live after Zanesville. If my question is simple and thought provoking enough it might lead to an answer that will generate more discussions in the other parts of the forum, and who knows where the answer to that question might lead.

The format has to be uncomplicated. Statement of what we believe you know. Question then based on our own impressions of the information you have claimed as fact. And placed somewhere easily found.

Am I making any sense? Improvements on these thoughts? Paul, Victoria, anybody else?

Possibly this might encourage novice posters also because they won't have to be part of the conversational thread to join in. Just restate the fact, ask the question. Mark C.
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and if you don't know

Postby Annemarie » Tue May 30, 2006 2:29 am

And I am sure if we follow that routine and you flat don't have an answer for the question you will tell us that you don't know the answer? RIGHT? I would appreciate that and probably need to hear that, if thats the case. Flat out and without apology. "I don't know" is hard to say sometimes.

You said that it was important for you to know what you DO know and what you DON'T know.

I guess even partial answers would work for us in some cases , or even theories in place of "I know for sure" because that way we could discuss the different theories that you might be turning over in your head and that would be great fun too. Either way its a great idea, different than other writers, at least you will tell us if its conjecture, or the best of your knowledge at the time. Going to be a great pool to be in! Annemarie
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New Top Level: Just The Facts, Ma'am

Postby Paul S. » Tue May 30, 2006 3:08 am

As you can all see, I have taken Mark C's suggestion here and created a new "top level" forum where we can discuss "what we know -v- what we don't know about Townsend Brown.

I feel the timing for opening such a forum is fortuitous, because, as I've noted elsewhere, we have now reached the point in the story where the "what we don't know" begins to outweigh the "what we know" -- and the latter only serves to conceal the former.

And I think the whole process has taken a new turn, as well. The "research group" is now empowered, and, I am confident, will take the entire undertaking to a new level.

There is some risk, of course, of revealing story points in this space before they are ready for "prime time" in the book itself. That might be an acceptable risk, in this space, if it helps us all get to the heart of what we seek -- and if you don't mind reading the results again when we get there in the body of the narrative.

Case in point, the question Mark raises above: the Brown family returned briefly to Ohio after their residence in Hawaii and then California, ca. 1953. I cannot say for certain that that was the last time he ever set foot in Zanesville, but I'm pretty sure that was the last time he (and Josephine, and Joseph, and Linda who was born in 1945) ever lived there.

Does that answer you question, Mark, in a suitable format for what you have in mind here?

--PS

--PS
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Re: and if you don't know

Postby Paul S. » Tue May 30, 2006 3:21 am

Annemarie wrote:And I am sure if we follow that routine and you flat don't have an answer for the question you will tell us that you don't know the answer? RIGHT? I would appreciate that and probably need to hear that, if thats the case. Flat out and without apology. "I don't know" is hard to say sometimes.


Are you kidding?? "I don't know" is my daily mantra.

When necessary I will state clearly. Without apology.

And with immense gratitude for whatever aid others can lend in finding out. We're all in this together, now.

I guess even partial answers would work for us in some cases , or even theories in place of "I know for sure" because that way we could discuss the different theories that you might be turning over in your head and that would be great fun too.


Yes. I think we have already seen myriad ways in which many heads looking at all this are better than one.


Either way its a great idea, different than other writers, at least you will tell us if its conjecture, or the best of your knowledge at the time. Going to be a great pool to be in!


Long ago, I spoke about the essential need to approach this project in a way that isolates and identifies "conjecture." It's good to know there are others keeping an eye out for that along with me.

Repeat after me: we're all in this together now.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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and happy to be here

Postby Mark Culpepper » Tue May 30, 2006 3:53 am

Actually more than just a little pleased. I happen to think what you are doing is really important and if I can help in anyway, well thats just great!

Your statement was that Linda Brown had told you that she had gone to some 48 different schools before she graduated. I am sure thats a fact. And actually thats what drew me into this story. (I could not imagine how anyone could survive that number of moves and still maintain any kind of an academic schedule. That sparked my interest and has prompted this question.)

When did this gypsy life style actually start? We have talked about Lindas experience but my question is ........ When did this constant moving actually start?

I am not going to even attempt to ask WHY because I know that would get too complicated. But do you know when? When he left Hawthorne? or perhaps later? I am fairly sure that at some point the Browns started moving constantly and as far as I can see, they never actually slowed down much, until he died on Catalina. Any idea when the "moving lifestyle" started?. Mark C
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The Gypsy Life

Postby Paul S. » Tue May 30, 2006 12:32 pm

Mark Culpepper wrote:When did this gypsy life style actually start? We have talked about Lindas experience but my question is ........ When did this constant moving actually start?


That's not the kind of question that lends itself easily to a single, factual answer, but my response would be Sept. 1930... about the time Townsend joined the Navy.

At the very least, that would serve as the point in time when he begins to sever connection to Zanesville (even though he comes back in the mid-30s, and again, briefly, in the early 50s). And though the itinerary has not been spelled out clearly in the text, he went to radio school in San Diego sometime after basic training and Josephine met up with him there.

So if you need a place to plant the "start traveling" flag, 1930 would be as good a place as any I can think of.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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P.S.

Postby Paul S. » Tue May 30, 2006 12:46 pm

May I suggest that each time somebody wants to post a new "what do we know/don't know" type question, that they start a new post/thread under this forum heading ? I think it would be easier to keep track of that way, rather than having a number of topics piling up under a single thread.

Sound reasonable?

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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starting fresh

Postby Victoria Steele » Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:18 am

Hey guys.

I couldn't sleep so I was prowling through the different sites and I found this! Its been dormant since ......... May sometime I think, but its a great topic. Stating what we DO KNOW FOR SURE .... and asking the question that the statement generates. Its a great form and thanks Mark C for suggesting that we refine it in that direction! Classroom rules you said. Well, don't count on me but I'll try to be good.

I am still waiting to see that presentation but I have recently talked to someone who was actually there. He told me he was very impressed, that Paul looked the part and seemed comfortable and in total control. Pretty good comments.

Paul has said that its going to get harder from now on to keep track of Townsend Brown because his activities are sort of swallowed behind a dark curtain. In the story he has just left the Navy. What happens now?

But even if he "goes dark"already we know more about him than others have who have tried to piece all of this together. One of the people who seems to be coming into the light somehow is this Sarbacher character. Paul has mentioned him as a Caroline member. And thanks to Mikado we have this big write up on him, so the guy was no lightweight. He is in one corner And a fellow that was one of the main debunkers of the existance of "Flying Saucers" in the fifties. Forgot his name ... Menzies?

So following Marks "rules" . Thats what Paul knows.

Now, is there any point of reference that ties these two men (Sarbcher and Kitslman) to Menzies? Paul? Is there any one in your "source bank" that can tie them together? Other than the disinformation effort and the UFO field? Did any of them work in the same industry or office or service or know the same people? Maybe I am off in the clouds somewhere but it just strikes me that there was an organized disinformation effort that swirled around Dr. Brown. It was BIG. And Kitselmans piece of disinformation about Dr. Brown having a "nervous breakdown" hid the truth sucessfully for years. And Menzies doing a royal hatchet job on anything strange being seen in the skies.

Paul seems to say that Dr. Brown was responsible for some of that misleading information himself but that whole deal is just immense. The media discounted anyone and everyone who said they saw a "Flying Saucer" So what was behind all of that. What was being protected. Its alot of effort over nothing!

And then suddenly I remember that it was Smith who had said that there was this super secret project that involved UFO propulsion .... and whose name was right there? Sarbacher! And he shows up again in Dr. Browns notes? Thats not a coincidence. So Paul, do any of these men play more of a part in your story? Seems like you are going to have to attack the disinformation side of things eventually. It seemed to deflect Nick Cook away from Townsend Brown but I know that ploy is not going to work with you! Victoria
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