Chapter 43 - For The Good Of The Service

Use this section for any discussion specifically related to the chapters posted online of the unfolding biography, "Defying Gravity: The Parallel Universe of T. Townsend Brown
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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somewhere a pony

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Interesting that Mikado and Paul are looking at the thirties with the NRL and I suddenly have focused on 1966. No explanation for that. The one thing that does ring in my brain is the phrase " multigenerational project" .So if that is really case then thirty years is just a drop in the bucket. Elizabeth
Paul S.
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1962 Dates

Post by Paul S. »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:What month and year was it that Wilbert Smith died of stomach cancer? My mind says that it was 1962 but I may be wrong. The thought went across my brain ..... if Dr. Brown met with Dr. Sarbacher soon after Smiths death .... perhaps it was because of that situation? Just a wild hare thought here!
We seem to be dancing around this website a bit. I just Googled "Wilbert Smith died" and came up with this one:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/muf ... bsmith.htm

"Smith died of cancer on December 27, 1962."

Here's a photo of the man:

Image

That's six months after the meeting with Sarbacher I mentioned earlier. There is nothing particularly suspicious in the day book from those last few days of 1962, unless you think there is something curious about taking Linda and two of her girlfriends to the movies to see "Taras Bulba."

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Paul S.
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Reply from John Page

Post by Paul S. »

Mikado14 wrote:Did anyone notice where Dr. Page worked? What years he was there? And that perhaps his son has journals and just maybe have some info that could shed some light?
I contacted John Page, son of Dr. Robert Page, per Mikado's prodding. Here is Rev. Page's reply to me, in full:
Good evening, Paul.

Your dates of inquiry ran from 1930 to 1942. In 1942, I was two years of age. Consequently, I have no memory of grownup associations from that period.

I would presume that my father and Townsend Brown would have been well known to each other if Mr. Brown was a regular employee at NRL during those years.

Regretfully, I am unable to shed any light on your research, but I appreciate your contact.

Cordially,
Rev. John R. Page, pastor-teacher
Trinity Bible Church
Medford, Oregon
--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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another question

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Paul,

Then I have another question for Mr. Page, if he doesn't mind answering it. Does he have any memories of what his father did in 1966, directly after retiring from the NRL? Could you ask him that, just for me?

This is an example of a lead that may or may not "pan out" but also an indication that there MIGHT be a group of people out there , in their sixties now,( like Linda Brown) a group which might have been witness to events that never made that much sense to them THEN.

But now, given an opportunity to talk together, looking back and combined with other accounts from other sons and daughters, this reflection might help tell this story.

Linda Brown, for example, could not tell you what her father was doing in 1950 , but she knows where she was living . All pieces to the larger puzzle.

Elizabeth
Mikado14
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Re: Reply from John Page

Post by Mikado14 »

Paul S. wrote:
Mikado14 wrote:Did anyone notice where Dr. Page worked? What years he was there? And that perhaps his son has journals and just maybe have some info that could shed some light?
I contacted John Page, son of Dr. Robert Page, per Mikado's prodding. Here is Rev. Page's reply to me, in full:
Good evening, Paul.

Your dates of inquiry ran from 1930 to 1942. In 1942, I was two years of age. Consequently, I have no memory of grownup associations from that period.

I would presume that my father and Townsend Brown would have been well known to each other if Mr. Brown was a regular employee at NRL during those years.

Regretfully, I am unable to shed any light on your research, but I appreciate your contact.

Cordially,
Rev. John R. Page, pastor-teacher
Trinity Bible Church
Medford, Oregon
--PS
Oh...........................................crap.

Start looking in another part of the woods.

Mikado
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy
Paul S.
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As You Wish

Post by Paul S. »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:Then I have another question for Mr. Page, if he doesn't mind answering it. Does he have any memories of what his father did in 1966, directly after retiring from the NRL? Could you ask him that, just for me?
To which Rev. Page replies:

My father continued to live in suburban Virginia for another year or two, and then moved back to his birthplace of Eden Prairie, a southwestern suburb of Minneapolis, Minnesota. He was active for some years in the field of Biblical studies and science, and gave various lectures on science, Scripture, true and false philosophies of science, etc. He was active in Rotary International in the Minneapolis area.

The last couple of visits I made back to Minneapolis, demonstrated to me that he had put his science career very much in the background, and was no longer even attempting to remain current with scientific research programs at the Naval Research Laboratory.

He passed away in May of 1992, after successful heart by-pass surgery with which the rest of his physical condition was unable to cope.

Cordially,
John R. Page
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Paul S.
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Chapter 44 and beyond...

Post by Paul S. »

Since some of you are no doubt subscribed to posts to this thread, I"ll announce here that the next installments are now online. Follow this link to the Introduction to Part II:

viewtopic.php?p=3444#3444

...and start reading from there. Please post your comments re: this new material in that thread, not this one.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
grinder
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What Beau actually said

Post by grinder »

I promise Paul I will put future posts in that area but this comment really does belong attached right to this particular thread. Its going to get lost in the other. I encourage everyone responding to this to follow Pauls suggestion to move along to the other "side " of this story

I found something interesting while browsing through Andrews nice site

Its a quote from Beau Kitselmans "Hello Stupid"

"It is a sad fact that discoverers are not indestructible. Young Mr. B, was very hard hit by the treatment he received at the hands of his teachers and supposed friends. He ran away and joined the Navy as a boot; he has never again, on his own initiative, made any bold attempt to present 'a demonstration of an electro-gravitational force'. Nevertheless, his native scientific ability caused Seaman B. to become Lieutenant B. by the middle of World War II. He was placed in charge of the Norfolk radar school, worked too long and too hard, collapsed, and was retired from the Navy in the early nineteen-forties. After six months of rest at home, he came to Lockheed-Vega as an engineer, and that is where I met him."

Now that I understand what was REALLY going on I can see that this was one of the first " disinformation ploys " set out there as a "smoke screen" for Dr. Browns actual activities. " worked too long and too hard, collapsed and was retired from the navy in the early nineteen forties" Thats almost word for word what Bill Moore said later ( without mentioning actually from what source he drew that quote....) and then others picked it up and it became the truth when it wasn't at all! But I understand now that it was part of what needed to be done. " After six months rest at home he came to Lockheed Vega as an engineer and that is where I met him." NOTICE He does not specify .... for the first time.

Just really wonderful peeling these onion skins backward. grinder
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Can't chapters 46,47,48

Post by grinder »

Paul,

Is there a solid reason that Chapters 46,47,48 cant have their own post positions? Its the only way we can comment on those particular chapters individually.

I know that its three extra posts but shouldn't they each have their own? So we can put our comments in the right areas? grinder
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Re: What Beau actually said

Post by Paul S. »

grinder wrote:NOTICE He does not specify .... for the first time.
Exactly.

Morgan has a great example of how a lie can be buried in the truth, as in the statement, "I did not sleep with that woman..." Or is that the truth buried in the truth. Dunno...

As for Kitselman, I think I've already skipped over where he first enters the picture, i.e. at Vega. I just have NOTHING that puts him there. And very little on who the man was at the time, if indeed he's a factor during that time period. I guess that's all going to have to wait for the re-write.

As for the "disinformation ploy" that Kitselman plants in "Hello Stupid," that's just the half of it. Yes, we certainly believe that Kitselman was the source of the "mental breakdown" story about Brown's departure from the Navy.

But the "disinformation" only starts there. There is good reason to believe (was that a weasel clause?) that Kitselman was close to somebody named Reilly Crabb, the founder of Borderland Science Research Foundation. Moore says as much in his TPX book, citing Crabb as the source of his version of the Navy story.

And then it's short trail from Crabb to... Vassilatos, and all the tall tales he tells.

And you can see it all starting with Beau Kitselman.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Paul S.
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Re: Can't chapters 46,47,48

Post by Paul S. »

grinder wrote: shouldn't they each have their own? So we can put our comments in the right areas? grinder
If you want to start fresh threads for the individual chapters, I don't have any problem with that. I think I threw those three chapters up at the same time and was just trying to simplify. But I think it's entirely consistent for each chapter to have it's own thread.

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
grinder
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solid information

Post by grinder »

Paul,

I don't understand why you say you have no solid information that places Beau Kitselman at Vega. You mean OTHER THAN WHAT HE SAID HIMSELF IN HELLO STUPID?

I understand that much of what he has said was part of a major disinformation campaign but as you pointed out, it doesn't mean that its a lie. THATS WHERE I MET HIM I think is probably quite true. And much of everything else he said was pretty much on the money. Right?

Anybody else out there can verify that? No, probably not. I doubt that Mr. Kitselmans family knew very much about what he was actually doing but at least they could paint a general picture of what he was doing, where he was living at certain times and that might help. Didn't a couple of his daughters answer up on your dragnet post? Can they help at all? I know one thing for sure . They knew each other. They liked each other and I think that they trusted each other.

Yeah, thanks for the OK on those chapter threads. I'll look and see if I have something particular to say for one of those chapters and I encourage others out there to do the same. It just seemed so .... uneven to not have a chapter post for each one. Thanks. grinder
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Stan and Ollie...

Post by Paul S. »

...Townsend and Beau...
grinder wrote:I don't understand why you say you have no solid information that places Beau Kitselman at Vega. You mean OTHER THAN WHAT HE SAID HIMSELF IN HELLO STUPID?
Yeah, other than that (which, frankly, I did not recall when writing about Vega earlier). I mean I don't have any data from the 1940s that puts Kitselman at Vega in the 1940s.
I understand that much of what he has said was part of a major disinformation campaign but as you pointed out, it doesn't mean that its a lie. THATS WHERE I MET HIM I think is probably quite true. And much of everything else he said was pretty much on the money. Right?
I'd have to go back and read "Hello Stupid" again to be able to say categorically, but, basically, yeah.

And don't be surprised if at some point I don't go back and re-write Chapter 43 in order to inject Kitselman into the story there. That is, after all, why it's still "a work in progress." And that's a very good example of how the input from these forums contributes to that progress. Thanks.

Didn't a couple of his daughters answer up on your dragnet post? Can they help at all? [/quote]

Yes, we have some correspondence going with one or two of Kitselman's daughters on a couple of fronts. Our primary contact has been out of the country for a few months and has just returned. So all this discussion is... timely (to put it mildly).
I know one thing for sure . They knew each other. They liked each other and I think that they trusted each other.
Like Laurel trusted Hardy, I believe...

--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
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