Gravity: Man's perception distorted since time began.

It seems there are quite a few visitors who have their own ideas about one of the great mysteries of our universe, Gravity. Here's a place where all the budding Einstein's among us can wax eloquent on the subject.

Gravity: Man's perception distorted since time began.

Postby St_Arey » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:50 am

Man's perception of Gravity is limited due to the primative nature in all of us. From the age of Man's ability to communicate to one another and to write about scientific information, all physical sciences have been studied with one perception in mind: Man's peception of time and gravity from this planet's point of view. For instance, Human's time clock mostly evolved around the phases of the Moon and the Sun, (i.e., the Earth's speed of revolution). Human's sole time existance is based on a 24 hour clock cycle. Are you with me so far? So, now pretend you're an extresterrial living on a planet moving at a much faster speed and their perception of time is much faster (think of frequency). Or say, pretend that Earth is spinning so fast that one revolution takes six hours (faster frequency). So now, we have a three hour day and a three hour evening.
Our basic clock cycle has changed, thus, our perception of time, space, and Gravity have different meanings in relation to one another. Thus a different aspect of Gravity. You see, as Humans we are limited in knowledge of the sciences (especially Gravity) due to our common, yet primative to some, location in this vast "space land." The phenomena of Gravity can be altered when Man takes a more permanent stance in space, or on some other planet. It is only then, I believe, that Man will really find the beginnings of Gravity. But until then, Human existance is still primative in thought when it comes to understanding mysteries of space and time.

Think about this: UFO's have been witnessed and seen by many; with great details of vast speeds from these crafts. Perhaps those creatures navigating those machines lives on a far, far planet. A planet made up of three hour days and three hour nights. And when they are hovering up above our Earth, looking upon what we believe is our busy and active lives, they are witnessing our activity as slow and sloth-like movements. Then we spot them hovering around, they just disappear to nowhere at some great speed.

Interesting thoughts to think about (outside the sphere).
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Postby Jon de Pinet » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:12 pm

you may ahve a point, but for the wrong reasons.

our day is mesured the way we mesure it for ease of use. but our time is mesured by the rates of atomic decay and are pretty rock solid. any being from adiffent place would view us a the same speed as we would view it. assuming the absence of any relitivistic diffeneces.

using a different refernce point does not change the rate of time in the current frame. relitivity covers that rather well if yu care to look it up.
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"Time" is only a conception for Man to understand

Postby St_Arey » Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:05 am

Jon de Pinet wrote:you may ahve a point, but for the wrong reasons.

our day is mesured the way we mesure it for ease of use. but our time is mesured by the rates of atomic decay and are pretty rock solid. any being from adiffent place would view us a the same speed as we would view it. assuming the absence of any relitivistic diffeneces.

using a different refernce point does not change the rate of time in the current frame. relitivity covers that rather well if yu care to look it up.


Only the effects that modern day atomic decay satisfy is the scientific events relative to current human's beliefs.

For instance..remember that day when a person drew little stick people along the corners edges of a notepad for several pages. Then after about dozen or so pages, shuffled the edges like a deck of cards, illustrating the effects of "moving" images..the human brain interprets the charactes as movement, yet every image of every page contains just one image.

My meaning is that us Humans see time and space as "one" or "two" images of that notepad...

For instance, in nature, the common moth during a mid-summer night is attracted to the brightly glowing porch light. It will flutter itself for hours around the light..Why? Why do moth, and other simple minded bugs become attracted to bright lights in the dark?

One theory is that incandecant bulbs operate at approxiamtely 60 Hertz (or cycles per second). Meaning, the light is "on" for 30 cycles per second and "off" 30 cycles per second. To the Human mind, the glowing light is perceived to be a ON all the time...(moving images of stick people). For the simple minded bug, it witnesses "flashes" of light. An attractiveness of a sort (plus a place to pick up a little warmth).

Or that some smalll birds (humingbird) can attribute or absorb images faster. Thus to them, Humans moving about would appear to move slowly than our own interpretation. This would tend to explain their rapid movement and advoidance of obstacals during high speed manevures; their brain can absorb faster detail meaning their existance is "relative to their own capabilities."

Thus, Humans are limited to relativity of stick people. If, and when, the Human brain can absorb faster details and or pattens by altering or imagining time then we as a race can find new theroies to new levels of sciences and have a better understanding of space and see all its infinite discoveries.

Yes, we use Time for its ease of use..that is our limitation for here on Earth. But for space, What Time shall we inherit? Remember, our perception of Time is relative to our conditioning (thousands of years here on Earth) If we could develop the skills to alter our perception of our modern-day Time, would we still perceive speed of light as 299,792,458 meters per second? Would the speed of light be called an image on the notepad? Or would we notice the speed of light as an illusion of movement? Or some other possiblity?

And Relitivity like you said, based on Eistien's special theory should hold true given our new percetion of time, regardless how fast or slow the perception changes because..It's simply our perception of position: It's what we call our reality!
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Postby FM No Static At All » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:39 pm

First, I agree that reality as we perceive it, is limited not by our physical limitations of "brain" but by our psychological limitations based on how we perceive. See, we have much more intelligence yet we choose not to see it. Humans have become victims of reality instead of masters of it.

Time as we measure it, can be converted to another format (alien) just as inches and meters (metres to those across the pond) can be converted. But regardless of how we measure distance or time, we have yet to grasp fully what time is. Yes our view is "relativistic" but relative to what? It would seem that it is our limited knowledge and our many beliefs that get in the way of fully grasping the context of time.

Now about gravity, I thought about this as a very young man, it would seem that gravity it not causal, but an effect of some other cause. In other words, the reason we don't "get" what gravity is, is because we are looking in the wrong place!

Like magnetic poles (like charges) repel while opposite polarity attracts, yet what holds the like charges of matter together or prevents opposite charged matter from smashing themselves together and into a mess?

When writing his Unified Field Theory of Gravity and Electromagnetism Einstein departs into a vast abyss of mathematical notations that physicists are still pondering even with all of the computing power at their disposal.

Truly, to get what gravity is and why it is so, we must go beyond classical science and the science fiction of Big Bangs and String Theory. We must depart from stellar fusion reactors of a nuclear origin, and learn how electric and magnetic forces are the powers of fusion reactions in stars and that the universe is electrical by creation and that is what powers it.

Now while I am still wrestling with the details, I will put forth the idea that gravity id caused by gravitons or more precisely, the charges (electrons, muons, leptons) that combine to form gravitons and super gravitons, whose purpose it seems is to provide order to the chaos of particle creation and structural form.

Big Bang? Let me see if I understand this correctly, in the beginning there was nothing. Then for some reason it explodes and creates the universe? Am I missing something here or is there a missing element to this fantasy?
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Postby kevin.b » Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:00 pm

FM,
Glad that you posted on this thread, three great posts that I had not noticed, four now with yours.
Everything we percieve is relative to the surface of this planet, the condition relative to here we are a consequence of, Einstein is right relative to that position upon the surface of this planet, but it has nothing to do with space and the relative condition of any other formed mass out in space.
there may be similer conditions upon other formed mass that match or are close to here, but all the maths will be relative to each condition.

If we have gone to the moon with rockets, we will be observing everything within a bubble created here, we cannot and should not exist on another planet unless we are able to match the condition found here, we may be able to withstand variations for short periods, but any longer times spent away from the tight band of condition here will destroy us.

I don't consider there is a force of gravity, it is a consequence of the condition relative to this planet, and will vary from planet to planet.
The same for light, it is merely the consequence of the condition of here and the condition of the sun, light is not travelling as such, just occuring, other things may be travelling and will have been wrongly diagnosed as light.
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Postby FM No Static At All » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:49 pm

It would appear the first perception is based on the relativity of our individual experience of reality. Einstein did not really see things abstractly, he saw them as mathematical representations. Maybe he just couldn't draw circles and angles, but he did not prove his theories in lab experiments, others have been doing that for him.

I am going to put forth a possibility that I cannot prove, yet it seems plausible when we consider the implausible theories accepted by classical science.

Conscious energy is the primordial beginning of everything. Before anything else was created it would seem plausible that creating another consciousness as the primary act of creation although it must also seem that "space" that is a physical media in which energy or matter can exist would have to have some rudimentary structure if only to hold the energies of thought.

Creating space and new individual "I am" beings would eventually lead to more complex structure of space and that is long before considering a finite structure of matter. Operating with common intent and focusing their collective energy to creating, a quantum fabric of energetic resonance was formed which defines the places where particles are born and learn to grow into complex forms with the assistance of that fine structure of space that provides the underlying physical attributes of the universe and its multiple facets and dimensions.

In getting matter to stay together in a form that has physical structure and structural integrity to be built upon even further, the process requires something that is simple and always available to the molecules to build on.

Thought energy is electromagnetic, and has been measured as such. It would therefore make perfect logic to have EM as the foundation of matter building. The wiggle and jiggle of electrons eventually forming a ring, and as it tightens and condenses it imparts angular momentum in the form of a spin based on its polarity and because it also needs to conserve energy much impart that as it gives birth to a proton. On instance of conditions not quite ideal for proton creation, an anti proton may be born instead. Of course when it meets with its proton counterpart they mutual destroy each other and release energy to the media.

SO now what does all of this have to do with gravity and how gravity is created by the movements of leptons and dimuon combining to form gravitons and supergravitons which perform the task of placing an attractive charge between atoms, so they can have form and structure.

Now think about Dr. Brown's work with rocks and heat and electricity. The mass of the rock was somehow changed by the heating and electrification and the affects while not permanent, did have a decaying back to "normal" property. So now what does that leave us with? The unification of all energy into electromagnetism and the so called forces of gravity and the strong and weak nuclear forces can all be explained with electromagnetic oscillations and rotation of charge around a central axis of opposite polarity.

Now we get to the exciting part! How do we get the lift to leave the pull of the Earth's "gravity" and still have enough energy to journey to another planet? By spinning the fields and determining which direction is most positive in charge and push towards it. The gavitator was designed to have thrust in one direction. But you could mount the gravitator so that it can be moved as with a rudder With conventional aircraft it is the lifting body that maintains flight, so utilizing a gravitator design here would not be practical.

But using multiple gravitators to spin a disk and create an anomalous glow discharge to increase input as well as provide output, and have the tremendous electromagnetic forces provide all the lift, basically you have a truly Electro-Gravitic propulsion that is literally self-powered.

As a caveat to Viktor Schauberger and his works with vortices, he had noticed that water falling while fish were "swimming" up steam and up the fall seeming to defy gravity, were using what he described as a magnetic current that flowed in the opposite direction of the falling water, in other words, uphill in stead of downhill. And they fish he said were funding the magnetic flow and using it to "pull" them up the fall.

This is another seemingly unrelated data point that when viewed with all the connections presented thus far concerning the possibility of gravity being electromagnetic in origin, it begins to look at if we may have found the unification that is long sought.

Rejoice! A new paradigm begins with an old theory about nature.

Fred
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Re: Gravity: Man's perception distorted since time began.

Postby Mark Culpepper » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:18 pm

Nearly seventeen thousand QUALITY POSTS and now we deal with the above crap. I don't know why it bugs me. Makes me want to say .... Mr. Twigsnapper ... is there any way that you can mess up their system? Servum right! But I don't suppose you would do that so...... Paul, is there anyway you can head these guys off at the pass? MarkC
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Re: Gravity: Man's perception distorted since time began.

Postby FM No Static At All » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:52 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Graviton
How gravitons mediate centrifugal force?

Since centrifugal force is the same kind of force as gravitational force (except for being repulsive in general) then could anybody explain how gravitons madiate this force? What is the mechanism of exchanging gravitons, and between what particles, while something is spinning? Jim 16:07, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

For over three months nobody could answer such a basic question? How a graviton is going to be recognized when found if no one seems to know its properties? Jim 09:13, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Um. "Centrifugal force" is not a force, but only a pseudo-force. It appears only to an observer who is not in an inertial system. As a pseudo-force, it is not mediated by anything. --Stephan Schulz 09:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it was already detected but not recognized; can it be that the detected form at around 2.587 GeV in the particle spectrum, at the Japanese H-quantum experiments (1970's), may be a (heavier) graviton form?

"Another key point which needs consideration is the question of how a quantum
theory of gravitation which implies a graviton form as a unit of gravitational action can
account for weak gravitation forces that still depend upon G but arise from mass or its
energy equivalent that is much smaller than the graviton mass. The answer to this is found
by recognizing that gravitons, being leptons, can exist in charge pairs and can exchange
energy as between themselves and another associated particle form. On a steady
gravitational basis the taon form dominates the action according to the charge continuum
volume displaced but on a transient basis minor fluctuations in volume of a heavier
graviton form cater for the balance.
How then do those gravitons feature in the spectrum of particle physics? Research
shows that they mainly comprise the taon - the mystery lepton particle that sits alongside
the muon and the electron in the bottom line of the standard quark picture of the particle
grid. As to that heavier graviton form it is somewhat elusive but has been detected at
around 2.587 GeV in the particle spectrum and is best referred to as the ‘Japanese H-
quantum’ [2]. It exists in anti-particle pairs alongside two anti-particle taon pairs, meaning
that there is one such heavy graviton for every two taon-gravitons."

by H. Aspden [1], 2005; http://www.aspden.org/arp/2005arp3.pdf see also [2] (section "Introducing the Graviton"), 2003 http://www.aspden.org/books/2edpoc/2edpocch2.pdf

Some related references (provided in the author's writings)

Particle Data Group, Physics Letters, 170B, 1986 > specifies a ‘(2585) bump’ at 2586 +/- 45 MeV;
Nanjo and Takana, Suppl. Prog. Theor. Phys., 54, 120, 1973 > identifies a mass energy between 2.4 and 2.6 GeV;
H. Aspden, The Theory of Gravitation, 1966 > theorizes a g-graviton form having a mass of some 5063 electron units (equation 5.19, pp. 76-79), 2.587 GeV.
Truth is stranger that fiction!

Fred a.k.a.
FM - No Static At All
'The only reason some people get lost in thought is because its unfamiliar territory.'

http://fixamerica-fredmars.blogspot.com/
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Re: Gravity: Man's perception distorted since time began.

Postby htmagic » Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:34 pm

Mark Culpepper wrote:Nearly seventeen thousand QUALITY POSTS and now we deal with the above crap. I don't know why it bugs me. Makes me want to say .... Mr. Twigsnapper ... is there any way that you can mess up their system? Servum right! But I don't suppose you would do that so...... Paul, is there anyway you can head these guys off at the pass? MarkC

Mark,

That is what I originally thought as well. But then I reread Fred's post and figured it was a cosmic haha that you've heard about. Because we need to be reminded on Fred's comment that:
FM No Static At All wrote:But using multiple gravitators to spin a disk and create an anomalous glow discharge to increase input as well as provide output, and have the tremendous electromagnetic forces provide all the lift, basically you have a truly Electro-Gravitic propulsion that is literally self-powered.


That is a powerful statement. But is it true? Is this a fact or theory? I don't know. How would it operate, like a homopolar motor? Is that what you're talking about? They were invented in 1831 by Faraday but most people think that this type of motor is 'antiquated'. But Tesla examined Faraday's homopolar generator and improved upon it.
http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat406968.pdf

Tesla's homopolar generator uses 2 disks. But is this disk acting as a generator or a homopolar motor? If operating as a motor, it would give a gyroscopic effect. Then you could use the excess power from the flame jet generator to run the motor. The motor could give you the electromagnetic effects.

Hmmm, I need to study this more...

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Re: Gravity: Man's perception distorted since time began.

Postby Mikado14 » Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:15 am

Everyone is talking Gravitors - Gravitators. Give a description of what it is along with the theory of operation. No cut and pastes, in your own words. If you can't, and I suspect that is the case, then how can anyone hypothesize on how it would function when used in conjunction with any thing else. Essentially, mere speculation.

It is great to do so but IF you really had the math to build this along with the theory of operation then I believe you would have what is in those missing notebooks, at the least, a page or two from them.

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Re: Gravity: Man's perception distorted since time began.

Postby natecull » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:40 am

Mikado14 wrote:Everyone is talking Gravitors - Gravitators. Give a description of what it is along with the theory of operation. No cut and pastes, in your own words. If you can't, and I suspect that is the case, then how can anyone hypothesize on how it would function when used in conjunction with any thing else. Essentially, mere speculation.

It is great to do so but IF you really had the math to build this along with the theory of operation then I believe you would have what is in those missing notebooks, at the least, a page or two from them.

Mikado



Good comment.

So, do YOU have that math?
It's a big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff.
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Re: Gravity: Man's perception distorted since time began.

Postby Elizabeth Helen Drake » Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:11 am

Nate and Mikado,

Don't look at me.

But I do have one thing to add here and you all might think its fairly funny. If you study the things that most people said about Townsend Brown, genius, elctrical engineer without peer maybe, intuitive, etc etc etc the one thing that you will find is the complaint that HE NEVER DEVELOPED THE THEORY BEHIND HIS UNITS. THERE WAS NO MATH TO FOLLOW.

Now I know that finding where the Math is ... and who can develop it is really important but as far as building the darned things Townsend Brown seemed able to do that without doing the math of it first. Now I suspect that it was because of his amazing understanding of the basic force he was working with. And much of it was an intuitive understanding that , Like the ball field and the players that would show up, He simply seemed to understand that if he built something according to his vision, it would just work. ( Maybe not entirely perfectly, but generally it worked.)

And once he accomplished that ( proved to himself that his vision was viable) he lost interest in the project in a flash and was anxious to go on to the next proof, And in all of that .... math had an insignificant part.

Someone brought up here on the forum that Dr. Brown was " multitalented" and was able to concern himself with more than one project at a time.

Perhaps that trait was one of the things that helped him to do that. He seemed to never get boxed in with the technicalities of a situation but instead of that simply handed the idea off to someone who would work out whatever bugs and go on with it. Thats what he did with Jim Lee and the idea that became the "Ionic Breeze>" and though thats about the only thing that has bubbled to the publics view I imagine he did that with other organizations too. In fact, maybe they all counted on him for that.

I sort of see him as a scientific Johnny Appleseed.

That too is why I think he might just really be pleased with what is going on here on the forum. I am sure that there are more things that he would like to see " passed over" to people who will add their own brilliance and work hard to develop further.

Just one of the character traits that I think made the man who he was and one of the elements that I believe colored his life.

I would like to post a question to the forum. It has been mentioned that the family moved constantly. ( well 48 schools in 12 years is close to constantly) I would like to hear from all of you what YOU think that the reasons were. (Just to head one topic off .... Dr. Brown was never, ever in " trouble with the law" so running from that sort of situation can be ignored from the start! <g>)

Of course I have my ideas why it was important for the moves but I wonder what you all think, now that you have gotten to know him through Pauls book so far. It may be that one or several of you will come up with an idea that hasn't crossed our path yet. Thanking you all , in advance. Elizabeth
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Re: Gravity: Man's perception distorted since time began.

Postby kevin.b » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:37 am

Elizabeth helen Drake,
I will have a little crack at the reasons for the moves, basically he was a sailor.
The most important thing to sailors are the tides and the weather forcast, where is the pressure, or low pressure.
There are lots of explanations as to what alters the pressure and there will be many variables.
But I suspect Dr Brown was tracking universe, and its consequence/s relative to the area around this planet.
I also suspect that he will have been intimately aware of the air flows at all heights, and will possibly have further reasoned where it was safer to avoid the fallout from any contaminents in the atmosphere.
But above all of this I consider that the precise locations of his labs were centred on a lattice grid where the movements of all other celestial bodies could be tracked and monitored, and that at specific alignment times, Dr Brown desired to be positioned on precise points relative to certain celestial points.
The ebb and flow of space may be very similer to the tides, with flows accelerating in different direction dependant on many variables, communication in particuler may have only been possible relative to precise positioning.
Kevin
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Re: Gravity: Man's perception distorted since time began.

Postby Linda Brown » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:41 pm

I wondered what interesting answers Elizabeths question would draw but I should have known that you Navigator would strike at the core the quickest.

I have thought about this and thought about this.

Moving just to "keep us safe" really doesn't hold that much water. If he had wanted to " keep us safe" he would have done as MarkCs dad did and simply leave us behind with no connections to his life. That was not a consideration for him. So I guess part of the security concerns were answered by the fellows ( and Helen of course) who lived with us for these odd two year stretches.

And having to move because of " changing jobs" doesn't answer anything either. Who changes jobs four times a year? ( At least). As Mark pointed out .... even the military "brats" ( I say that lovingly of course) didn't have to pack up that often.

To keep one step ahead of anyone who might have been trying to draw a bead on him? Well, that had to be a concern ..... but that doesn't answer the question of WHY the places that he picked.

And for those who might have figured him by now my Dad never "commuted" anywhere. He either had his own lab nearby or he was "camped" in a big labs backyard. Consider King of Prussia, Pa. General Electric. How far Mikado from Ashlawn? Eight miles? Less? How far from Bala Cynwyd during the " Ashlawn years? about the same, or less?

I was told once by a mystic who happened to be a very powerful woman in an organization I had some dealings with. She told me that there was a " Ley Line" that ran from Philadelphia directly out toward Valley Forge. Would you know about this Kevin? Have you ever heard about this?

I suspect that we have touched on one of the most mysterious sides of the reasons Dad moved where he did. Like a sailor, as you said.... he was judging the currents and the flows.

And his instructions for me in that " Rain on the Window" group of papers was the very specific ........ Where the four points meet. I guess I am still looking until those four points find me! Thank you so much Kevin. I don't usually respond to your posts but they resonate with me, as you already know. Linda
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Re: Gravity: Man's perception distorted since time began.

Postby grinder » Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:46 pm

Four points and Ley Lines

And Linda,

I think that your friend who mentioned the "Ley Line" out of Philadelphia knew what she was talking about. Listen up Kevin. This is right down your " ley line" I wish I could see them or sense them the way that you do.

"And no wonder! No less that six ley lines emanate from a point marked by the cracked flagstone between Independence Hall and the Commodore Berry statue. One of the lines runs northwest through the Art Museum, Belmont Plateau, and on towards the Valley Forge Park area"

from http://www.ascordia.com/atu5holyexp.html

Read it folks. Its more than just mildly interesting. Maybe another reason for something ( whatever it was) called the Philadelphia Experiment. grinder
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