A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
In 2005, the book Red Star Rogue: The Untold Story of a Soviet Submarine's Nuclear Strike Attempt on the U.S., by former American submariner Kenneth Sewell in collaboration with journalist Clint Richmond, claimed that K-129 ventured much further south, some 300 miles northwest of Oahu on 7 March 1968 positioning to launch one of her three ballistic missiles in a rogue attack on Pearl Harbor. This theory has been criticized as a speculative conspiracy theory by the head of the contemporary history branch of the U.S. Naval Historical Center
Yeah, that coulda ruined the snorkeling around Oahu for quite a while...
--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
I guess that some people just get carried away and don't really understand that the Earth is constantly changing and adjusting and thats just the way its supposed to be. Sometimes you just can't go home again so thats why I guess its really important for us to make sure our present safeguards our future.
As I have read about the various animals on Catalina. The boar were brought over by the Spaniards originally and dumped off to supply food for future visits by ships coming up or down the coast. And the bison were for that movie .... but what would Catalina be now without them. Not half as much fun.\
What do you think of this Glomar discussion? I know that you were not there when she was hanging out off the coast of the island. Anybody else remember any funny stories? or strange ones. Anybody remember Dr. Brown on the Island? I know that its been a long time but its a small town and I know how that can be! Maybe your contacts on the Island can ask around?
Thanks for that information on the second sub coming into Avalon. That could be very helpful and a good lead. Elizabeth
Last edited by Elizabeth Helen Drake on Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks for the link Paul. It substantiates a pattern that has been apparent to me, and I'm sure others who have been looking at all this for decades. Cheshire Cat indeed !
As concerns Catalina Is. I think we're all overlooking the fact that this channel island is significantly different in its geological makeup than the other islands, or the mainland which is close by.
It is composed of a tectonic upthrust and the rock contains high amounts of quartz and silver. Anyone got any ideas how that might apply to some of the weirdness that has gone on there over the years ? I believe that it's been a factor.
Catalina has definitely been a huge natural resource for most of Southern California. For most of the 20th Century Santa Catalina has produced two comodities for the consumption of the southern west coast.
1.) Catalina has one of the largest quarries in California. Producing most of the rock used to make the Long Beach and Los Angeles Harbors breakwaters.
2.) Catalina also in the early part of the century had a ceramic tile factory on the island. Making roofing tile for the booming California construction market and making beautiful hand painted tiles that adorn many opulent homes in and around the Southwest. Many of the tiles are prominently displayed around the architecture in Avalon itself.
Now a bit about myself, up to this point I have been more a spectator of the forums, but I as Slick have spent a great deal of time with Linda Brown. I came to know Linda after Dr. Browns passing.
I must thank Twigsnapper for the welcome. Before I realized who he is, he gave me a hell of a fright.
I have seen Dr. Brown's granddaughter grow from a campy teenage girl who could ride anything with fourlegs to a beautiful woman with an awesome husband and a beautiful son. I have sat in Linda's husband garage rebuilding a carburator in the middle of the night freezing my tuckus off.
Most of all I have seen Linda take timid young girls and turn them into formidable horsewomen capable of riding against the best. Linda has had a love affair with horses that really showed through in her dedication to making these girls compete.
To quote the last famous words of Socrates... "I drank what?!"
So in my time around Linda I have seen a few of the incredible things Dr. Brown had "tinkered" with. I am still fascinated with his "sensor rock", It currently sits in a rosegarden outside a little gate that leads to Linda's front door. As well it should.
To quote the last famous words of Socrates... "I drank what?!"
I am sure glad that I am not the only one around here with a freezing tuckus! Caused from being out in the cold way too long!!!! and in your "location" you say that you are " Between a Rock and a hard place" and BOY do I know what that feels like!
May I ask if you have met Mr. Twigsnapper? I was hoping that the answer might be yes, though I understand if you don't want to be baraged with questions from guys like me. I have been fortunate enough to be in some sort of communication with the man and I wondered if you too were in that situation.
I envy you your position with the Brown family. I believe that I have missed that opportunity by a whole generation. Rock by her front gate huh? grinder
Missed that opportunity by a whole generation ? Well, perhaps growing up with Townsend Brown's grandchildren, but there's always his great-grandchildren.
In a multi-generational project, the fun is always just beginning, right ?
I have a very good question for you Paul. If that story about the " rogue sub" wasn't true why did Mr. Twigsnapper say what he did?
And after reading a little bit more both here and from other sources. You are going to think I am long gone in the head and all of you can laugh if you want but you want to hear what I think happened?
I believe that there was a rogue sub, that she did surface and that she was preparing to fire on Honolulu. No other Navy ships anywhere. (She wouldn't have surfaced if there had been another presence to her knowledge. )Preparing to launch and then she was fired upon by something out of nowhere. a sub(?) that eventually left with only the smile remaining. Thats what I think.
So what do Townsend Browns Grandchildren think of all of this? grinder
Ordering that book now.
Worth the consideration. I have heard other critics say that the fellow wrote that book without anything to back him up , still he must have had a reason for wanting the story to get out there and he must have believed that something was going on and if itgoes counter to the "official report? Well then, hey we can't believe the first thing we are told by anybody these days. We would have all thought that the Glomar Explorer was a simple mining machine.
And I am not so sure that the subsequent stories all all the truth either. As Mr. Twigsnapper and Paul and Elizabeth have all said all along this whole thing is like the biggest onion ever devised. And I am not sure that we are EVER going to get to the absolute bottom of it because just like Andrew just said ... its a multigenerational project. The damned onion keeps growing.
But look at the result. Think on this hard folks. Lets say there was another sub out there we can call the " Cheshire Cat" What if the Cheshire Cat hadn't been there? What if she hadn't fired on that Russian Sub. ( going into my own version of science fiction here. You are welcome to join me any time. We can at least TALK about all of this. Thats what we are here for right? Victoria
That would be "Unknown Service Ship," not "United States Ship"...
Victoria Steele wrote:Lets say there was another sub out there we can call the " Cheshire Cat" What if the Cheshire Cat hadn't been there? What if she hadn't fired on that Russian Sub. ( going into my own version of science fiction here.
Assuming that where there is almost smoke there is almost fire, then the better question for me is: how did the U.S.S. Cheshire Cat KNOW what was going on aboard that Russian sub ?
Hmmm?? BTFOM...
--PS
Paul Schatzkin
aka "The Perfesser"
"At some point we have to deal with the facts, not what we want to believe is true." -- Jack Bauer
Now I have to say Paul. You have to be just giving us room to roam here asking us how something like the " Cheshire Cat" could possibly know about what the Russians were planning to do. I think, if nothing else they had contacts to start with. Then the ability to track this sub. Maybe they were hoping that calmer voices might prevail and that she would not in fact go to the last stages of the procedure. But once she surfaced ( as it seemed that she did) and once the launch codes were set. What else then could a ship like the Cheshire Cat do?
Now here starts a very touchy subject. She cant announce herself and what happened. Evidence of that " attack" would be sure to be found if recovered. What to do, what to do.
Well. Maybe you encourage the US Navy to " find" the ship. Then you encourage the building of a special claw and ship to retrieve it.... or at least for the story to get out eventually of its attempt of retrieval. You know that they are only going to get one part of the sub because you blew the other part off. Makes for an interesting cover story ... how it broke apart but that would be acceptable. Meanwhile the Russians are content to sit where they need to sit ... in the far corner ... don't know how long THAT might last because you see they would still be convinced that SOMEHOW the US Navy had done the sinking and you know, as Twigsnaper has said. The "Russians have a very long memory.
Watch out. Looks like Pauls next book just broached the surface. A " fiction" based on fact. The story of the submarine Cheshire Cat. Flipping great! wheres my copy! Huh, huh, huh, huh? <g> Victoria
Last edited by Victoria Steele on Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Was the Russian sub considered "rogue" before or after the incident we've been discussing ? It's easy enough to re-write history on dark matters to save face, and
The "Jennifer Project" (must have been a pretty lady someone knew) was originally named the "Azorian Project" (per Mr. Twigsnapper). Azorian means "a native of the Azores." Does that mean something to anyone ?
