The Good Shepherd

[Paul S.]

The new movie "The Good Shepherd" has already been mentioned in the following posts (among others):

Mark Culpepper:
viewtopic.php?p=3743#3743

Victoria Steele:
viewtopic.php?p=3848#3848
viewtopic.php?p=3867#3867
viewtopic.php?p=3881#3881

Chris Knight:
viewtopic.php?p=3879#3879

Martin Calloway:
viewtopic.php?p=3842#3842
viewtopic.php?p=3847#3847

Elizabeth Helen Drake:
viewtopic.php?p=3851#3851

I suggest that all further discussion of this particular subject be concentrated under this heading.

- - - - -
Spoiler Alert!: before you read this post, be warned that there are certain elements of the story discussed here that you might not want to know about if you haven't already seen the movie. If you plan to see the movie and don't want the surprises spoiled, stop reading now and come back after you've seen the film. If you keep reading, don't say I didn't warn you...

- - - -

"The Good Shepherd" is important to our discussions here because it offers a vivid depiction of both the period we are now dealing with and the tenor of those times. The film spans the years from 1939 to 1961, and gives the audience a good idea of what was at stake during those years and the sacrifices required of some people in order to preserve certain vital interests.

I knew the moment I first saw a trailer for "The Good Shepherd" a couple of months ago that this was one movie I would absolutely have to see. Hell, I might even be able to write off the tickets and popcorn as a "research" expense. The movie came out last Friday, December 22, and Ann and I went to see it on Monday, Christmas day; Suffice it to say the movie provided a much needed respite from the various real-time family dramas we found ourselves contending with in Dallas...

As we were waiting for the movie to begin showing (to a packed house on Christmas day, by the way), Ann overheard the woman sitting next us warning her father that the movie was going to be "slow." But when it was over, I didn't think that it was "slow" at all. To the contrary, I found the pacing quite "deliberate" and effective. Not "slow" at all. Yes, it's a long movie, a full three hours, but not once did I find myself squirming or nodding off as I often in the "slow" portions of long movies; As the director, Robert DeNiro did an excellent job of juggling the pieces of the story and maintaining a level of suspense without resorting to cinematic conventions like chase scenes.

A couple of character notes: Most of you who are well-versed in some of this history no doubt recognized "General Sullivan" -- the character portrayed by Robert DeNiro -- as a loose construct based on William "Wild Bill" Donovan, the man who organized the OSS; Donovan fell out of favor with Truman after the war, and was only indirectly involved in the formation of the CIA, but the model was already in place and that was largely Donovan's (and Stephenson's) doing. And the business about Sullivan suffering from diabetes and losing parts of his extremities, that was a complete fiction so far as the actual Donovan was concerned.

The other character important to note for purposes of our discusions here is "Arch Cummings," the MI6 officer flamboyantly portrayed by Billy Crudup (who is fast becoming one of my favorite actors. Anybody see "Almost Famous" or "Stage Beauty" ?) The "Arch Cummings" character -- who eventually defects to the Soviet Union -- is clearly modeled on Harold "Kim" Philby. Anybody who saw my presentation in Las Vegas or has seen the video will recognize Philby as a pivotal character in Townsend Brown's life. Crudup's portrayal gives us a good idea just what that man might have been like -- an irresistible charmer with a nasty, treasonou secret up his sleeve.

Seeing Crudup's portrayal of the double agent Arch Cummings also reminds us of one very important factor in the formation of the OSS/CIA. It is the same governing principal that DeNiro's character expresses when he tells Edward that the service he is organizing will not be accepting applications from Jews, Negroes, or Catholics (Sullivan/Donovan being a notable exception to the latter category). That statement reminds us that agencies like the OSS and the CIA recruited their personnel from the ranks of the most elite layers of American society; Despite our pretenses of an egalitarian democracy, there is very much an aristocracy at work here; It is in no small way to protect those vested interests that outfits like the CIA were formed, for that is the element of society that had the most to lose if the Communists prevailed in the Cold War. By the same token the British agencies MI5 and MI6 made a point of recruiting their intelligence officers from the ranks of the British aristocracy, though the Philby story demonstrates that that particular resource pool is not necessarily the most reliable.

(I have also read that Matt Damon's character, Edward Wilson, is a composite of two CIA officers, James Jesus Angleton and Richard Bissell, but I know nothing of these two gentlemen.)

Though the plot of the movie unfolds in fragments that are interrupted with flashbacks, I found the essential story easy enough to follow. There were loose ends, of course. The biggest being "who was responsible for having Miriam (Edward Jr.'s fiance) thrown out of a flying airplane? I decided it was Edward Sr., who could not fathom having an "enemy" agent living under his roof (so to speak). Others say it was the Russians, who were afraid she would defect.

Or, what was Edward Jr. doing in Congo in the first place?

And when did Edward Sr. decided to get the goods on Phillip Allen (William Hurt), the higher-up with the fixation on Swiss chocolates and bank accounts?

And, what was the business with the dollar bill at the end? And... wasn't that Grant's Tomb in Manhattan where that scene was filmed?

Those are the sort of niggling details that accompany almost any work of fiction. But the key scene for me, the one moment that made the entire three hours worthwhile, was an exchange between Edward Jr. and Edward Sr., in which the son says that he was "always afraid that something would happen" to his father (or words to that effect, I don't recall the precise dialog).

When I heard that statement, it reinforced for me the unspoken logic in the way that Townsend Brown conducted his affairs: He did everything he could to isolate his family (except for Josephine) from even the slightest knowledge of his activities that might have caused them a worry like Edward Jr. In Edward Jr.'s character I see a reflection of both Joseph and Linda Brown; Joseph went to his grave thinking that his father had squandered his life and fortune on "flying saucer pipe dreams." And while he may have resented his father for that pursuit, there is no evidence to suggest that Joseph Brown ever feared for his father's safety. And Linda is only now -- 20 years after her father's death --beginning to learn some of the truth (and will likely never know the whole story).

While Edward Wilson's family apparently knew just enough to fear for his (or their own) safety, my impression of Townsend Brown is that he conducted his life in such a way that his family would never know enough to fear for his or theirs. And that, I think is the lesson of this movie for our purposes.

Finally: Did anybody catch Keir Dullea as Senator Russell? I barely caught the character at all in the movie, but I recognized the name when it went by in the credits. Keir Dullea was "Dave" in "2001 - A Space Odyssey." "Open the pod bay doors, Hal..."

--PS

[Chris Knight]

LindaB and I saw the movie on Monday night, and didn't have much trouble sitting through the 3 hours either.

In case Elizabeth doesn't point it out (as she pointed it out to me), the last scene was reminiscent of the earlier scene on the bus wherein a woman hands a dollar to a young boy to give to Edward Sr. The dollar registry number was checked against a list for that agent.

In the last scene, the large Russian man asks for a dollar to buy a trinket for his child back home. Edward Sr. gives the man a dollar saying something to the effect that it is "a cardinal rule to help each other in a democracy" - "cardinal" being the code word. The implicaton is that he had an inside man right under the nose of the Russians.

I knew there was something funny about the exchange, but I have to give Elizabeth credit for pointing it out to me.

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Paul,

I watched with some interest also the Mob Boss that was being contacted by the CIA in Miami. Did you watch the interaction with his grandchildren. Do you think that anyone in that household knew that Gramps had perhaps been talking with the CIA regarding assasinating Fidel Castro?

No it was the warning ..... "don't let them burn their feet on the sand "....as his daughter and grandchildren headed for the beach. ...

I believe if you put them together in the same room the mobster boss and Townsend Brown would have agreed in keeping whatever "business" they might have been involved in totally separate from their family. That was just UNDERSTOOD.

And the daughters headed to the beach with their kids? Do you think that they had grown up knowing that they could ask questions that didn't immediately concern them? Hardly. It was more for their protection NOT TO KNOW and the ones that understood the history of thier families knew even better why that rule was out there.

I suppose Linda Brown has gone through the same slow revelation and perhaps appreciation of what he father was dealing with on a daily basis. And I guess in her case, he was probably the most sucessful at hiding all of the dangers. And it apparently was very important for him to keep her isolated and protected from being drawn into that world herself. Remember the words he used to Morgan . " She NEEDS NOT TO KNOW" (Because if she DID KNOW she would have never felt safe in her world again.) Elizabeth

[Paul S.]

I just had another thought about the meaning of "The Good Shepherd" for us all.

Angelina Jolie does a credible job with what amounts to a sliver of a part in this movie. She's considered the female lead but her screen time is what? Out of three hours... maybe 15 minutes? Twenty tops.

Actually, what triggered my thoughts in this regard was re- reading a passage from Chapter 38 that Mark Culpepper quoted in another thread.

viewtopic.php?p=3751#3751

Quoting Morgan:

“And throughout it all, I continued to imagine how it was going to work with Linda. I couldn’t see any reason why it couldn’t work. I had this vision of me, going off for weeks at a time, doing my secret agent thing, and then, somehow, Linda was just going to be there, happy to see me come home. I didn’t realize at the time how naïve I was. I just could not fathom that “Linda needs… not to knowâ€

[Paul S.]

In a post under a different thread:

viewtopic.php?p=3851#3851

I just saw that movie last night too and I totally agree with you Martin. I think that DeNiro likes the subject so much and knows it so well that he has forgotten that most of the audience is just not going to be up to speed.

I heard DeNiro say as much in an NPR interview. Well, about his interest in the material, not so much what the audience will recognize/remember. It's only because I've been so steeped in this material for the past couple of years that I recognized a lot of the themes. Others in the audience, this was their introduction to a lot of water that has long since gone under the bridge.

Was it just me or did anyone else have trouble just keeping track of the characters? They all looked so alike to me, these early OSS guys, fraternity brothers, white, repbublican, wealthy , priveledged and well connected. They all look alike.

Yes, I did have some difficulty keeping up with all the characters. And yes, those rich WASP types do all start to look alike, don't they <g>

The character I lost track of was the Russian, I guess he was code named "Cardinal"? The one Edward gave the dollar bill to at the end. I didn't quite get who he was supposed to be. I may have to see the movie again if this discussion is going to continue.

Good luck trying to jam Townsend Browns story into that sort of setting. We got sunshine and palm trees and seaplanes, yachts ...... a constant change of scene. Its got to be an entirely different movie thats for sure.

Yeah, this one could go four hours. Like "Gone With the Wind" or "Ben Hur." Maybe a mini-series...

--PS

[grinder]

I don't know all the pluses and minuses of a mini-series as opposed to a full length movie. But this is an EPIC story and I would hate to have much of it left on the cutting room floor just to make the time constraints.

And there are a BUNCH of great stories all rolled up in thsi one. Its a watershed!

And you know as well as I do that we are watching the birth of something that REALLY belongs on the screen. Speilburg? somebody like that. Somebody that sees all the joy and passion in inspiration. I have never met the man but I'll just bet that he would have loved meeting Dr. Brown.

grinder

[grinder]

Who threw the girl out of the plane? Well, I cast my vote for the Russians. She had doubled on them and I always understood that someone who does that doesn't have a very long life expectancy. She would have been easier to just be dead as far as they were concerned. Too much trouble otherwise. And remember what Mr. Twigsnapper said happened to a troublemaking stallion. I think thats what he was talking about . You become too much of a problem, you become dead. And how about the elderly cane carrying professor?

And maybe the Russian did it too as sort of a favor to Edward, knowing that he would not order it himself. What did Mr. Twigsnapper say ..... "never use your own knife" ..... the assumption is that someone else will do it for you if their agendas match the actions. I don't think that Edward would have done it ...... but he knew that it would happen and did not move to stop it either. He kept saying to his son, remember , "I can not protect you."

Case in point.

And " the Cardinal?" I took to be a double agent working for Edward, right under the nose of his primary adversary.. In Edwards position I would not expect less. cool movie. nice to be able to talk about it because thats what it seems to encourage.

I just read that the Berlin Tunnel was a fiasco actually for the West because it had been compromised from the first. So all of the material that was picked up from the listening posts in the tunnel .... were all planted disinformation. How embarassing that must have been! and the Russians were probably giggling in their vodka! grinder

[Paul S.]

What's the adage, "we become that which we most fear" ?

Who threw the girl out of the plane? Well, I cast my vote for the Russians.

That was actually my first instinct, too. That the Russians pulled it off, but Edward knew about it.

She had doubled on them and I always understood that someone who does that doesn't have a very long life expectancy.

How had she "doubled" them? I get that she gave the Russians the site of the landing in Cuba ("cochinos" = "pigs"), but what did she give the Americans?

And maybe the Russian did it too as sort of a favor to Edward, knowing that he would not order it himself.

That also makes sense for me, especially since the story goes to such length to portray the "adversarial respect" between "Ulysses" and "Mother" (Edward).

And " the Cardinal?" I took to be a double agent working for Edward, right under the nose of his primary adversary.. In Edwards position I would not expect less.

See, that part, that character, I hardly grasped at all. But what you say goes a long way toward the gesture with the dollar bill at the end.

I just read that the Berlin Tunnel was a fiasco actually for the West because it had been compromised from the first. So all of the material that was picked up from the listening posts in the tunnel .... were all planted disinformation.

Oh, I hope we don't go there yet... there will be more to say on that subject when Brown gets to Europe in the mid-fifties.

How embarassing that must have been! and the Russians were probably giggling in their vodka!

...while certain of our friends were cursing the damp, like a leaky submarine...

--PS

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Paul,

I agree with grinder. I do think that the Russians took care of the girl. How had she betrayed them? She fell in love. Wanted to marry the son of an important CIA "senior official". She had been working for them and she probably was just too much of a liability to allow to go in that direction. I think that she might have stayed alive if she had embedded herself in the situation but that became impossible when Edward unraveled the situation and blew her cover. Soon as he did that her time was limited I think. Just my coffee opinion.

And did you catch the ONE biggest secret? That Russia was not as strong as everyone thought .... and that our own military and intelligence networks were not telling the truth about that because it went against their best interests? What was it that Eisenhower had said about one of the greatest dangers this country faced was the military industrial complex.

Interesting movie, certainly. Elizabeth

[Victoria Steele]

Paul,

Just trying to keep up with this review of the Good Shepherd. I noticed a couple of things.

Wasn't James Joyce Morgans favorite author? I just wondered what it was that helped the author of this book pick that particular piece of work, or author to play such an important part in the movie. Just saying that I think there are ways in this sort of world to make nods in certain directions without naming sources.

I also noticed how readily Edwards group went to the use of LSD to interrogate ..... and how quickly that ended in the fellow jumping out of the window. And it brought up something a friend of mine once said about "accidents" where these guys were concerned. He said their favorite "accident" was a fall from a great height. I guess if you look at some of the things that happened back in the forties and fifties .... "falling" out of a window and " alighting on ones head" was sort of the standard dispatch.

And I have been studying more about the CIAs part in the Bay of Pigs and my friend (who is a great student of history, not being an American) said that the CIA had plans to assasinate Castro as part of that invasion. That in fact the assasination and the invasion were supposed to happen at the same time. and even the men secured for the "job" being mafia soldiers from Miami had no "need to know" regarding where the order was originating from. Of course they had theri own reasons for wanting into Cuba anyway so again I can see Mr. Twigsnappers " never use your own knife" saying making alot of sense here.

Interesting movie made even more so when you go with a fellow who has studied so much about that time in history.

He mentioned that Robert Maheu, (who was the go between between the CIA and the Mob,) afterwards started a security business in Las Vegas. (and whose name he says is familiar to someone here on the forum.)

And I ask ... is this Robert Maheu the same fellow who managed some of Howard Hughes business? Or did I just get my wires crossed? Victoria

[twigsnapper]

Victoria,

If you study the forces that were at play during the Bay Of Pigs invasion you will get an appreciation for some of the scenes in that movie.

First of all. A "Senior CIA official" such as the movies " Edward" would not have been talking directly to any mobster if he could avoid it. He would know that he would have people watching him all the time and half of that time it would be his own FBI. Especially then. So he would have picked someone a tad more familiar with the sleazy side of life, which was common to the rank and file he would be trying to reach. Remember this is a man from " fraternity row". It takes a bit of reaching down some dark alleys to get the expertise that you need.

So when the order came down to kill Castro, rolling downhill now, it found itself in CIA Director Allen Dulles hands, he passed it off to the fellow that was sort of your " Edward" (Deputy Director Richard Bissell) ( The most adventuresome thing about this fellow was his occasional choice of a striped tie instead of the little diamonds.) From Bissel it rolled again to CIA chief of operations Col Sheffield Edwards ...... from Edwards ... rolling darker now, because you see this qualified as a "Ultra Sensitive" order it found its way into the lap of Robert Maheu.

So you were right. Robert Maheu served on the behalf of the CIAs largest contractor .... insiders called him " The Stockholder" ..... Howard Hughes.

Ah, what a tangled web. Everybody watching everybody. But nobody seeing the Caroline Group. How could that be? twigsnapper

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Mr. Twigsnapper.

I have been thinking about what Paul said here

"While Edward Wilson's family apparently knew just enough to fear for his (or their own) safety, my impression of Townsend Brown is that he conducted his life in such a way that his family would never know enough to fear for his or theirs. And that, I think is the lesson of this movie for our purposes. "

Paul sometimes uses the term " the money phrase here" is HE CONDUCTED HIS LIFE IN SUCH A WAY THAT HIS FAMILY WOULD NEVER KNOW ENOUGH........"

I submit that it wasn't just his family that was never given the opportunity to become suspicious about his activities. But then, just how do you do that?

And I ask you then, in particular, just HOW did Townsend Brown manage to isolate his family from those worries?. How could he possibly have “protected them from that knowledgeâ€

[Mikado14]

But nobody seeing the Caroline Group. How could that be?

Do you really wish an answer or is that just a rhetorical interrogative?

I could hypothecate.

Mikado

(Would that hypothecation be considered a chess move?)

[Paul S.]

(Would that hypothecation be considered a chess move?)

I think all chess moves are considered an "hypothecation" until your finger is removed from the piece...

Unfortunately, none of us can see Twigsnapper's fingers from here..

--PS

[Trickfox]

BOOO HOOO HOOO

The Good Shepard is not available in English in Québec City, Only in French and I'm afraid I will miss all the nuances if I try and go see it right now, so I'm not reading this thread yet and you will all have to wait for my comments AFTER I SEE IT IN ENGLISH.

You guys and gals are lucky, not having to put up with cultural barriers.

Trickfox