"Closer Contact"

[grinder]

As I said what we need is a new topic to capture our thoughts on what the "Group" might have been doing during the aprozimate time frame of the " Winterhaven Project." There has been some suggestion that the Townsend Brown Foundation might have been a vessel into which "Group" financing was poured. I am not sure what Dr. Brown did in exchange for that funding. To be sure, whatever it was, it involved doing alot of moving, actually for most of the remainder of his life.

But what else was the "Group " possibly into and did anyone make any kind of an odd reference to it.

Well, how about this folks. This is downright strange.

According to "Above Top Secret" Tim Goods wonderful compilation of UFO reports and our response to that. On page 370 he quotes Dr. Oberth ( a prominent missle expert

"Goods paragragh ......." Earlier , Dr. Oberth hinted that there had been actual contact with the UFOs at a scientific level. " We cannot take the credit for our record advancement in certain scientific fields alone: we have been helped. He is quoted as saying, when asked by WHOM he replied " The people of other worlds" There are persistant rumors that the US has even test flown a few advanced vehicles, based on information alledgedly accuired as a result of of contact with extraterrestrials and the study of grounded UFOs.

And suddenly Paul, I see that picture of Dr. Brown sitting with his young daughter right at his side, and for some reason pointing to the sky. And in this message I see and feel the whiff of disinformation creeping in, to cover what might have been a VERY secret situation. Note what Oberth said. " We have been helped" The by whom? Starts down that slippery slope almost immediately. Its as if he is doing what Dr. Brown was doing, pointing to the sky when the most important treasure he had was sitting right next to him. grinder

[Mark Culpepper]

And on the same page (great source grinder, page 370 Above Top Secret)

Get this: "In 1959, Dr. Werner von Braun, another great space pioneer, made an intriquing statement, reported in Germany. Referring to the deflection from orbit of the US Juno rocket. He stated "We find ourselves faced by powers that are far stronger than we had hitherto assumed. and whose base is at present unknown to us. More I can not say at present. We are now engaged in entering into closer contact with those powers and in six or seven months time it may be possible to speak with more precision on this matter."

And then cosmic haha as Paul and Elizabeth would say .... the next paragragh is devoted to information on Dr. Sarbacher.

Like getting hit on the head with a two by four. Am I paying attention. Is anybody out there paying attention to what he is ACTUALLY SAYING?

Mark C.

[Victoria Steele]

I have been sort of quiet (for me) because I have been spending some time collecting information on " the other side". The gutterball land that Paul so studiously avoids! but my point is. Ya hafta go look at what they are saying! They may make your hair turn white and your teeth grind but this is important to alot of people and we should give them the benefit of knowing what they are talking about, for example, when some one uses that phrase " John Lear Hypothesis".

So thats why I have been quiet.

but this is too good to leave alone.

That same page Tim Good writes "There has been nothing futher published on the matter. As Dr. Robert Sarbacher has commented (see chapter 16) (his quote folks, not mine) von Braun was probably involved in the recovery of crashed UFOs in the late 1940s (ISN'T THAT ODD, THE CONFERENCE THAT PAUL IS GETTING READY FOR IS ABOUT RECOVERY OF CRASHED UFOS)and it is my opinion that he was constrained from elaborating on the subject owing to the security oath that he must have been subject to. I cannot prove this, of course, any more than I can substantiate information I have received from a reliable source (A RELIABLE SOURCE? WHO WAS THAT AND WHAT AGENDA DO THEY HAVE IN ALL OF THIS?) that top secret contacts have been made by extraterrestrials with selected scientists in the space program. It must be admitted though that von Brauns statement comes close to corroborating this. What else could he have meant when he said. " We are now engaged in entering into closer contact with those powers." The Soviets?(CLASSIC EITHER OR SCENARIO, WHICH I HAVE BEEN TRAINING MYSELF TO SEE AND AVOID)

Look again and again at what Good has just brought to the surface without seeing it! What could he have meant indeed when he said " We are now entering into closer contact with those powers ......" That statement was made in 1959, right? ( HE SAYS IN SIX MONTHS OR SO, WHICH MAKES IT 1960?)

Where was Dr. Sarbacher at the time? Where was Dr. Brown? and because I know that Paul has said that the person who was supposed to be a genius in math and odd stuff like sanskrit, and Dr, Browns close friend, Beau Kitselman, where were THEY ALL in 1959?

Wanna bet they were in the same place at the same time? Paul? Paul? I know. You will say , WAIT. But without elaborating on "the rest of the story" can you answer that simple question for me? Were Sarbacher, Kitselman and Brown in the same place at the same time about 1959/1960? Victoria

[Martin Calloway]

You are so right Victoria. It doesn't really matter what this fellow is figuring was happening because he admits he has no proof. But maybe when Paul comes up with his theory of what was going on, he will have more solid evidence.

It worries me a little that it is ASSUMED that von braun was actually talking about extraterrestrialshere. (the thought from others being." Its not us, we don't know who it is, the things MUST be from outer space. "That ain't necessarily so! From what Paul has unearthed it is entirely possible that it was the work of this "ragtag private group"

Look at von Brauns exact words. I suspect a little translation problem maybe. Good said that this was translated from a German source. Dr. von Braun is quoted as saying " We find ourselves faced with powers which are far stronger than we had hitherto assumed, and whose base is at present unknown to us."

Now look at that carefully. How else could that have been more properly translated? He was talking about a Juno rocket that had strayed off course, I believe. So he was talking in that frame when he was quoted. How else could that quote been translated?

" Huh, our calculations were off, we underestimated the forces involved..... uh drat".... then he says ..." We are now engaged in entering into closer contact with those powers." Couldn't he have actually said something like. "I can't say much about this now but we have to go back to the blackboard and figure out and understand better the forces that we miscalculated." Might it have been as simple as that? Martin

[Martin Calloway]

I have one simple question. Regarding all of these crash investigations.

If YOU had a super secret project going that involved a new propulsion system that was being tested. Isn't it RATIONAL that you would have test flights?

IF you had test flights, wouldn't it be RATIONAL to have a crash or two along the way?

So how would you maintain your secrecy when your units go bump in the night?

Now thats an interesting slant.

You get there first, collect everything that would help you figure out what went wrong, and then you cover the whole incident with a disinformation story. Thats the rational thing. Martin

[Victoria Steele]

I suppose most of you know that Townsend Brown was the original founder of a study group on "Flying Saucers". He named it more appropriately " National Investigations Committee on Aireal Phenomenon" which just about covers everything I guess. known as NICAP.

Nick Cook makes quite a point of not understanding why a man like Dr. Brown would go in that direction. He feels in a way that it removes Brown even more from "credibility".

I never have understood that attitude from Cook because NICAP went on to be a major powerhouse in investigating and properly logging differerent sightings. It has an interesting history which I won't go into here. Most important to know that Dr. Brown started it, and was involved with it for a period of time (though short)

And at first I thought (counter to Cook) that Dr. Browns actions were entirely appropriate. After all, he had developed a propulsion system that worked best in a disc shape. Why wouldn't he investigate, or cause to be investigated, reports of units that displayed the same design? That made perfect sense to me.

But maybe I stopped short when I looked at that situation! Perhaps he started NICAP as a COVER for his interest in what was being reported to the press and what was being talked about with the public.

In other words, if HE and his GROUP actually had "Flying Saucers" out there running tests, (and maybe even crashing). What better organization to be involved with on the surface tahn something like NICAP. Its like absolutely perfect! He doesn't have to explain, REALLY, his interest.

Does that make sense to anyone? Victoria

[Trickfox]

http://www.csicop.org/cgi-bin/search/se ... send+Brown

This webpage contains a very interesting opinion from the skeptics of UfO propulsion and extraterrestrials. THEY NEVER TALK ABOUT Dr. Brown or any of his past works. Me thinks this is very strange. Its as if they knew they could NOT attack him for some reason.


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Trickfox

[Victoria Steele]

Trickfox,

How interesting is that? I find that REALLY strange that no one in that group would venture a pot shot at Dr. Brown or his work. Maybe he was just not into their radar zone? Do you think that when Paul starts raising his visibility that the negative press will start? Thats just really interesting to have a blank like that out there. I don't think it was anything that was ordered. But maybe there is some sort of a protective system at work. Just interesting. Thanks. Victoria

[Paul S.]

You get there first, collect everything that would help you figure out what went wrong, and then you cover the whole incident with a disinformation story. Thats the rational thing.

Or, you get there first, and send everybody else somewhere else and let them foster the disinformation campaign.

Roswell, NM, for example.

--PS

[twigsnapper]

absolutely right Paul. Why waste professional manpower for disinformation when the amateurs are so much better at it if just left alone with a tad of information.

And here is a puzzle for everyone out there.

Why would there be a team of students from the University of Pa ALREADY at a certain crash site? twigsnapper

[Paul S.]

Why would there be a team of students from the University of Pa ALREADY at a certain crash site?

UofPA? You don't say..!?!?

Are we using the term "students" loosely?

Funny you should mention that.... I just came across a similar reference in my notes yesterday and inserted into the LV presentation. Guess I gotta say something about a "crash," huh?

--PS.

[twigsnapper]

Ah, there is indeed hope in this world. And see, I didn't even have to remind you!

I suppose "loosely" might apply. Students in a life long class of their own.

And so you see, you are in the right place at the right time regarding presenting your material at a UFO crash conference. Exploring possibilities, indeed. Let somebody out there earn his stars.

Where else? Twigsnapper

[Mikado14]

You get there first, collect everything that would help you figure out what went wrong, and then you cover the whole incident with a disinformation story. Thats the rational thing.

Or, you get there first, and send everybody else somewhere else and let them foster the disinformation campaign.

Roswell, NM, for example.

--PS

Did a Google on Roswell, forget it, way too much to look at, no time. However, I remember something from the History Channel in the past year or so that mentioned another crash in the late forties also and I believe it was called "something" canyon. Am I foggy or still in that white room?

Mikado

[Mikado14]

UUUUUGGGGGGHHHHH!

Ever have one of those mornings?

Did a Google on what Twigsnapper said using UofP and UFO.

http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache:fp ... =clnk&cd=4

Was I way off on the word canyon.

Mikado

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Oh, one of those ..... gragggghhhhh moments? Yes, I am familiar.

Like just now when I wrote a long message and I guess screwed up somewhere because it is GONE. so I start fresh with the short version.

Thankyou Mikado for finding those students. At least where other people have mentioned them. Notice that the circle goes right back to William Moore.

Now, I know that Mr. Moore has told Paul (the letter is on the forum) that he has said everything he knows about Dr. Brown. Frankly, I don't believe him.

Now, I know that won't come as any great surprise to him. I am sure he is getting used to hearing that from people. I may choose different avenues for my disbelief though and I will explain that later. Its just interesting to me that he would be one of the first to mention the "students" who were escourted away. Of course he also mentioned the "alien corpses" too.He also mentions a couple of Air Force officers.( A nasty tempered red haired man and a black officer.)He said that the students were "escourted away"so Has anyone ever been able to locate them? I get the impression not ,though there certainly has been a stampede of investigators our there running back and forth over the countryside.

I notice that Stan Friedman is going to be at the crash convention. Maybe we should ask him about the students?

Like you said Mikado. Which is pepper and which is flyspeck? Elizabeth