Bletchley Park - And Why We Are All Here

[twigsnapper]

Yes, I understand what you mean. It is impossible to remain a completely invisible fox. Even breathing makes noise.

by all means Linda, pursue the thread. I am sure that your contributions will be greatly appreciated and noted.

Regarding me "ripping into Morgan". Actually the fellow made more than one mistake with me. The first was the cocky smile which I knew couldn't be left standing and the second, which Paul didn't really mention, was the fact that he lost his temper. I had gotten , whats the expression , "in his face" with some pretty inflamatory language. He was a hot blooded young man, he only took so much, then he reached for the knife.

He told me much later that I had saved his life more than once and after that moment I never saw him actually lose his temper again. Sometimes it might have LOOKED like he had lost it, but that impression was always a calculated move to lull his opponent. After that particular moment, as much as is humanly possible, (and for Morgan that was going a good long distance) he has never again lost control.

Regarding your special hill. I guess that we all have ways of finding that "mid-point". You have your hill, without the distractions of the city far away. I enjoy sailing. (Paul and I have a certain amount in common there but everyone has his own particularly private place where we seem somehow in better tune with our lives.) Dr. Brown loved being on a sailboat or in a canoe, or even better, underwater. He was an excellent swimmer, as you probably know.

When I was asked if I could swim and it meant being accepted for this special project or not, of course I lied. I said " Yes Sir, I swim" Which was technically the absolute truth. I figured I could swim, I just wasn't sure when the swimming would stop and the drowning would begin.

Nice to hear from you. Let us all know if you dig up anything interesting. Twigsnapper

[LongboardLOVELY]

I enjoy sailing. Paul and I have a certain amount in common there but everyone has his own particularly private place where we seem somehow in better tune with our lives.

I used to watch these white tipped sailboats float by up on that hill and that made me want to learn to sail. So I took lessons about 8 years ago. The first time out to sea, I learned that it looks peaceful, but it sure is a lot of work. I found out real quick that the sea looks calm, but it really isn't!! Funny, kind of like life. Everything from far away looks pretty peaceful and calm, but don't get too close!! You should have seen me tacking up the Marina Del Rey Bay my first time~~ I promised Andrew that I would finish the course so that I could get my license. I still have the stuff Andy~ I will finish someday!

Dr. Brown loved being on a sailboat or in a canoe, or even better, underwater. He was an excellent swimmer, as you probably know.

I didn't know. He certainly looked as if he had a swimmer's physique.
I learned to swim real quick. My first teacher tossed me and my brother into a pool and said "swim, or drown!". I didn't like that teacher very much!! But, I guess she did her job.

When I was asked if I could swim and it meant being accepted for this special project or not, of course I lied. I said " Yes Sir, I swim" Which was technically the absolute truth. I figured I could swim, I just wasn't sure when the swimming would stop and the drowning would begin.

haha Well, you didn't drown yet, so I'm guessin', sir, that ya learnt to swim...

Linda B.

[Chris Knight]

Twigsnapper,

I think you taught Morgan two important lessons that day:

1) Never underestimate your opponent, and

2) Never act out of anger.

Of course, it would be foolish to try to write down all of the great lessons one would learn in that type of business, but the next rule that comes to my mind is:

3) Know when to retreat - it may be your only chance to get a second opportunity.

Andrew

[LongboardLOVELY]

Twigsnapper,

I think you taught Morgan two important lessons that day:

1) Never underestimate your opponent, and

2) Never act out of anger.

Of course, it would be foolish to try to write down all of the great lessons one would learn in that type of business, but the next rule that comes to my mind is:

3) Know when to retreat - it may be your only chance to get a second opportunity.

Andrew

I can think of a fourth rule:

4) Learn when to display controlled anger; it may be your only avenue to distract your opponent.

Linda

[twigsnapper]

Andrew,

Your comment about living to fight another day made me smile.

I had occasion a long time ago to train some policemen. They were not Amercians and even trying to uphold the traffic laws was a bit of a stretch for most of them, but they were put into a situation where they were being trained to be a little more effective. Some of you might recognize this situation. Handling a rifle was a dismal experience for most of them. Any sort of real military polish was out of their reach and the biggest trial for the instructors was just to personally remain in one piece. The big phrase was " Keep your eyes open!" because most of them had a very bad habit of closing their eyes and THEN firing.

Knife fighting was supposed to be my contribution. But truthfully all I could say to those brave men was ........ "if the fog of war gunfire has cleared and you still have an opponent left standing, and he has a knife ........ RUN"

And so I appreciated grinders response to the #2F/S knife. I think he said. "Run away little boy, run very far away." Its a smart and ultimately sucessful person who knows when he needs to save himself for another day. And you don't always have to be faced with that sort of ultimate danger to make that sort of wise decision. Twigsnapper

[Elizabeth Helen Drake]

Twigsnapper,

You say .... run ... when faced with overwhelming force. But I have heard stories of your adventures and I know that you are an extremely brave man. So is it that you already decide ahead of time what is worth making a stand over, and what is a position that can be abandoned and retaken later?

I sense that there might be some out there that would translate what you have just said as a true "waffle" position, where it is alright to leave a situation when it turns truly "pearshaped" (Your expression, I believe)

So in a pear-shaped situation where everything is going wrong. How do you reach the conclusion to stay and fight or to "run away little boy, run very far away."

I have a feeling that I might know the answer to that one. Or at least my version of it and I'd like to share it with everyone and invite others too to let us know your opinions.

I have always enjoyed reading about the ancient world. In one situation Xerxes was advancing his armies into what is now Persia. He encountered a wild bunch of horsemen (they still live in the mountains of Afghanistan I believe). It was quite a company of them so Xerxes set up his troops to go against them but everytime the battle lines were drawn the tribal horsemen just moved off to reappear somewhere else. Frustrated Xerxes is reported to have sent a message to the leader of the horsemen. "Why don't you stand and defend your land? The leader said ..... "the land itself means nothing ..... but if you approach the graves of our forefathers .... then ..... we will fight."

So I guess in every situation each person has to decide what might be worth spending his life for. And maybe it is good that he has that decision to make on his own. Elizabeth

[Paul S.]

Glad to see that the Enigma conversation has returned to its previous home here. I think I got off the track late last night accidentally posting some comments about the movie "Enigma" under the Sanskrit header. Oops. Those posts are here:

viewtopic.php?p=2001#2001

.... but the discussion should continue here.

Thanks,

--PS

[Mark Culpepper]

Here is a technical writer -type question for you Paul.

I have been trying to read Nick Cooks book very, VERY carefully and I just noticed something odd in the phrasing that he used. It struck me suddenly that he is talking about our very own Mr. Twigsnapper here, possibly. Can you tell me if I am again on target?

On page 59 of his " The Hunt for Zero Point" Nick Cook writes,
"Between the chaos of the front line and the overstretched resources of the intelligence units tasked with assessing German hardware and documentation .... which the victors had shipped out by the ton load.... there mights still, I figured, be some fresh evidence; something useful that had been overlooked.

I started with the British, whose initial stab at organized technology plunder was INVESTED IN THE HANDS OF A RAGTAG PRIVATE ARMY - COMPOSED BIZARRELY, OF SAILORS AND ROYAL MARINE COMMANDOS. THIS OUTFIT WAS THE BRAINCHILD OF A CERTAIN COMMANDER IAN FLEMING, WHO 15 YEARS LATER WOULD GO ON TO CREATE THE BOND PERSONA IN THE 007 NOVELS."


Now this is my main question (with more coming close on its heels) WHY DID HE CALL IT A PRIVATE ARMY? If it was composed of Royal Marine Commandos (Remember Mr. O'Rileys commando knife) and sailors (boatmen???????) why would he refer to it as a PRIVATE ARMY? Do you see the anomaly here? I have a feeling that Cook wrote that but didn't really realize the importance of what he said.

What do you think Paul? And Mr. Twigsnapper? I appeal to you directly. Am I on the right track?

And if I am, how did Cook miss that? Of course he admitted earlier that he got all the information he considered crucial on the life of Townsend Brown from Valone and someone else. Maybe he should have asked a few more people. Mark C.

[twigsnapper]

Mark C.

You are a student of history as well as a teacher and you might have a vested interest in digging up this information for Paul.

Look up the insignia that was used for the " British Commandos" (there were many classifications in that group. Note the knife on the insignia. You will recognize it. Also realize that other factions appreciated the name "Special Service" and used that interchangeably with "commando"

And in that special service there was included something called "Special Boat Service".

Paul, have you found your way out of the maze in Washington yet. I loved the remark that you have found about the British. No, No ... we COULDN'T have done that! Whatever it was , we definitely couldn't have managed it! HA.

Twigsnapper

[Paul S.]

Paul, have you found your way out of the maze in Washington yet.

Yes, but I'm going back in for a few more hours shortly...

I loved the remark that you have found about the British. No, No ... we COULDN'T have done that! Whatever it was , we definitely couldn't have managed it!

Yeah, the reference was sorta "off topic," but I found it amusing enough that I copied the doc and will maybe scan it and post it here when I get home.

Interesting business from Cook's book.... I'll have to take another look at that, too.

--PS

[LongboardLOVELY]

When dealing with Dr. Brown then, contrary to what many people have thought to this moment, you must keep in mind that his TRUE habitat was not exclusively a laboratory.

So then I suggest looking hard at the world of "INTELLIGENCE"

If you pull yourself out of your compartment and try to get a birds eye view what you will see then are three sections of the field of "Intelligence"

Information has to be aquired, it has to be analysed and interpreted and then ( here is the tough part folks ) it has to be put into the hands of those who can use it. And understand for all the light side of that there is also the dark side. Information has to be protected and guarded, encoded so that no one else would understand it and then at nearly all cost, kept from those who want that information. The parallel universe, the up and down. Dr. Browns world is right there, either on one side or the other ....... or both ..... or somewhere a million points in between.
Twigsnapper

Mr. Twigsnapper (and others),

You encouraged me to pursue that vein of thought, that Brown's habitat was not exclusively in the laboratory. So I did.
I've been reading "The True Intrepid" and found some interesting thoughts.

In the third and fourth chapters, MacDonald writes about those that Stephenson recruited in the late 30's from US and Canada to work alongside the BSC. Many of these people come from scientific or artistic backgrounds. For instance, Roald Dahl, the author of one of my favorite children's book (James and the Giant Peach) would not have been someone that I thought worked in espionage. Then there were University professors from Canada (recruited to teach code and ciphering probably) and scientists and engineers.

In the days when the PM (Churchill) and S were recruiting under cloak and dagger situations, they were doing so because many on this continent and the other did not agree with going to war against Germany. For instance, Joseph Kennedy and Charles Lindbergh were serious isolationists.

The book talks about many even in the MI5 and 6 of BSC who gave away secrets to Das Fuhrer. This would be referring to what Mr. Twigsnapper called the dark side. You wouldn't know who was with you or who was against you.

So, it is not unlikely for S to have sought after someone like Brown who had the brains and technology developed (even if it was in the early stages) to also work against the madman.

I have not read far into the book, but I've got a taste of what some of these people (who were not strictly "spymasters") were doing. Question is, what was Townsend Brown doing, when he wasn't in the laboratory? Was he evaluating Russian or German technology? Was he fixing it so that they couldn't use it? Was he hiding technology so that they couldn't use it?
And better, what was his "EX-WIFE" doing?

Am I on the right track, Mr. Twigsnapper?

The Ruminations of

LongboardLOVELY (Linda B)

[twigsnapper]

This is an interesting world Linda. Your question "what was his Ex wife" doing? was a good one. In all the efforts to classify and understand the activities of these brave men it is often exceptionally easy to forget the women in this story.

Paul, you know that this can't happen. Some of those women worked their entire lives under a cloak of security that caused them to live lives that were never mentioned and never understood. Some of them went into this field completely alone, never able to explain to their loved ones and their friends what was happening around them. Many times they had to face abandonment by those who did not understand. It was a hard life, and still is for some.

I have been honored to work beside some brave men, more honored still to have known some exceptional women. Its up to those around them perhaps to take certain things on faith and continue perhaps ? to use the phrase that meant so very much to Dr. and Mrs Brown. " Remember dear, you will always have me".

Nice to hear from you longboardLovely. Twigsnapper

[LongboardLOVELY]

... it is often exceptionally easy to forget the women in this story.

... more honored still to have known some exceptional women. Its up to those around them perhaps to take certain things on faith and continue perhaps ? to use the phrase that meant so very much to Dr. and Mrs Brown. " Remember dear, you will always have me".

Nice to hear from you longboardLovely. Twigsnapper

One of the things that jumped out at me when I read that chapter about recruitment in Macdonald's book, was that over 1000 Canadians wound up in NYC, and more than half of them were women. I like that the denouement has a series of reflections from some of those agents, and that half of them are from women. I especially love the words of Ms. Marion de Chastelain. She was the mother of Canada's Armed Forces, General John de Chastelain... when in NY in 1940 she received a job offer while caring for her ill mother. The caller asked her 'would she care to do something for King and Country?' " and her response: "Why not?"

I think of my grandmother sometimes when I read about these people. Though she was not from that part of the world, she had her own power and strength. I believe that the caliber of women of those days was much higher than the women of my generation, and even of the generation after mine. Not to disparage my own gender, but words like Allure, Secret, Quiet Strength, Discipline, don't seem to apply all that much to some of the ladies I know now. But there are definitely exceptions to that. I hope I have not offended anyone on these posts.

I wonder if I were in that situation ( that Josephine found herself) if I would have been as discreet, and beautiful, and daring and deserving of such an honor; oh and able to withstand the ridicule/criticism of family and friends when my "divorce" became public. In my world, there is a need for this type of person. My hope is that I will continually improve myself and work towards this end. She obviously loved her husband very much and trusted him TO THE END OF THE WORLD, since she endured so much, AND kept it from her daughter even unto her own death.

LongboardLOVELY

[Oh, and if those reading these posts are confused, I changed my handle from LBolland to LongboardLOVELY. I think it sounds more descriptive ]

[Victoria Steele]

Linda B.

Your post was interesting and I have something to add to what you have said.

I think that your conclusion might have been that women in past decades were somehow more valient and braver, than what the women are today. Its a thought to consider.

And after thinking about this for a second and a half, I have decided that it really has nothing to do with the ladies but more to do with the challenge of the times.

The ladies are ALWAYS brave and willing to put out the courage that a situation takes, they just need the moment. In Josephines time the moment was there for her and she rose to it.

Today the moment is there too and the women of this age I think can rise to meet it too. Maybe the most courageous are the ones no one gets a chance to talk about. Of course I am speaking of perhaps the people working for Homeland Security or various intelligence services like the CIA etc but I am also talking about the mothers out there simply (SIMPLY?) raising children and taking care of their husbands.

Is it a Chinese saying? "May you live in interesting times'

Thats what this is all about I think. The women that you worry about not having the mettle that their grandmothers did, Oh, I think that they have it. My Great grandmother stood on a porch with a rifle in her hand ... Comanches and travelling outlaws were no match for her. And I wonder if the modern girls at the Mall could do that ? And I came to the conclusion that they just haven't been put to the test.

And I suspect that if you were comparing yourself too when you said that about how brave your Grandmother was, and I think anyone who is brave enough to go longboarding might surprise herself. Victoria

[LongboardLOVELY]

The ladies are ALWAYS brave and willing to put out the courage that a situation takes, they just need the moment. In Josephines time the moment was there for her and she rose to it.

Today the moment is there too and the women of this age I think can rise to meet it too. Maybe the most courageous are the ones no one gets a chance to talk about. Of course I am speaking of perhaps the people working for Homeland Security or various intelligence services like the CIA etc but I am also talking about the mothers out there simply (SIMPLY?) raising children and taking care of their husbands.

My Great grandmother stood on a porch with a rifle in her hand ... Comanches and travelling outlaws were no match for her. And I wonder if the modern girls at the Mall could do that ? And I came to the conclusion that they just haven't been put to the test.

And I suspect that if you were comparing yourself too when you said that about how brave your Grandmother was, and I think anyone who is brave enough to go longboarding might surprise herself. Victoria

I didn't want to be the last to post anything on these forums, but well, here I am again. I cannot add any cents (or sense) to the scientific discussions elsewhere (that's my husband's domain anyways), but I can put in a few thoughts here. Victoria, you're right about a few things. You are definitely right that women and girls have not been put to the test in the same manner as our foremothers have. On the one hand, I hope for the generations to come after me will have an opportunity to show their colors; but on the other hand, I don't want them to suffer as my grandmother did.

I started this train of thought from the story of what Josephine had undergone. Ridicule because of divorce (conjecture realy), to the absolute necessity to becoming linked to A GROUP(s). Andrew was once talking to me about his impression of Josephine when he first met her. I think he mentioned quiet strength. I wonder under all that quiet and strength what she was really like.

I do stay at home now and am raising a family. I know myself much better now and what I can and cannot accomplish than I have ever learned in my 10+ years working.

Longboarding is a lot of fun! Try it sometime, Victoria. I haven't been out in the ocean for a very long time; who wants to swim in sewage!? I remember that the first time I ever got on a 9 footer and paddled and paddled and paddled... I couldn't use my arms for a week!

Thanks for responding anyways to my posts.

Mrs Andrew