Database

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
Trickfox
The Magician
Posts: 1461
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:06 am
Location: Quebec or Montreal
Contact:

Re: Database

Post by Trickfox »

Arc...You are quite a genius aren't you?

You left that in there for us to sniff out right?
You even let your system talk. I suppose you have probably already added temperature and humidity sensors and perhaps some visual image recognition capabilities, then given your server a personality, or will that come a bit later?

I like it for several reasons but mostly because it has the following capabilities:
<!-- This launcher works fine with Explorer (with Javascript or without) as well as with Mozilla on Windows -->

Your graphics are intriguing, simple, and intuitive!

OpenOffice.org 1.0.2 (Linux)
Fred,(FM no static at all) I think you have a kindred spirit here...

Arc.. are you also following Ben's work at OPENCOG.org?

We'll talk some more in PM on this Arc,

Congratulations! Fine work!!!

Trikfox
Last edited by Trickfox on Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
amalie
Junior Birdman
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:36 pm

Re: Database

Post by amalie »

Trickfox ,

I read you and arc .

Status report, all subsystems are stable, all units are operational, all network sub-sytems are operational.

Amalie
amalie
Junior Birdman
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:36 pm

Re: Database

Post by amalie »

natecull
Keeper of the Flame
Posts: 437
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Database

Post by natecull »

Re database technology, I sort of keep my eye on developments in the Social Networking arena (though my web-fu skills are not that hot), and one emerging package that might be useful at some point is Semantic MediaWiki. http://semantic-mediawiki.org/wiki/Semantic_MediaWiki

MediaWiki is the wiki engine that powers Wikipedia; Semantic MediaWiki adds some simple 'Semantic Web' extensions so that you can make pages which are not just text with links but database-type forms.

Might or might not be useful, and won't directly integrate with phpBB (runs on MySQL but on its own database), but it's one step more advanced than a plain wiki: lets you categorise topics, say things about how topics relate to each other and then do smart queries on them.

We could, eg, have a category for 'Scientists', a category for 'Theories', a category for 'Organisations', a category for 'Publications', a category for 'Devices', and then link them by relations: S worked for O, S wrote P, S developed T, O built D, D is documented in P, etc. Add dates and we can browse by timelines. That sort of thing.

There's at least one free public SMW wiki-hosting service, http://referata.com, which might let us create such a database for free if we wanted to experiment without interfering with the software installed on this site (because I know that web apps can be kinda ticklish to mess with once they're running).

On the other hand, that might end up just duplicating what the folks at PESWiki already have, so I dunno. But for myself, I'd like to sometime start building a personal mind-map type database of all these fringe theories to see if some kind of correlations emerge, and Semantic Web technology seems to me a good fit with mind-maps.
Going on a journey, somewhere far out east
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
arc
Junior Birdman
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:44 am

Re: Database

Post by arc »

whoooaaaaa there trickfox... hold the horses...

That sound file is from an old test I ran a long long time ago.. I had forgotten it was even up there and accessible. Im just a dabbler with many things, I grew up playing with mecano toys.... so it just continues now in other forms...<g>

im not bright.. just a very very stubborn plodder..

The software is all "out there" and just needs pulling into a cohesive framework, I do like Linux for the ability do "random" stuff with it... like i said, its a tinkerers delight.
I do not believe our destiny lays beneath our feet... it lays beneath the stars
arc
Junior Birdman
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:44 am

Re: Database

Post by arc »

Good idea there Nate

Adapting existing packages may be a lot easier than trying the ground-up approach. I also think the map, flow, interlinking , concept to concept approach will yield an intuitive progression.

Hooking a front end graphical presentation tool straight into the back end database will only result in a repetition of the same data extracted out to 17,000 picture box's.... useless

There will be an underlying rhythm to this data, we just need to find the right point to start the notes falling into place.


"theme from 2001 plays quietly in the background....."


arc
I do not believe our destiny lays beneath our feet... it lays beneath the stars
htmagic
Senior Officer
Posts: 661
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:46 pm
Location: People's Republic of Maryland

Re: Database

Post by htmagic »

Amalie,

That's funny! Where did you find that website? I like the parking lot that gets sucked into the black hole!
They even got the camera to jiggle. Is this from China? :wink:

MagicBill
Speeding through the Universe, thinking is the best way to travel ...
amalie
Junior Birdman
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:36 pm

Re: Database

Post by amalie »

Magic Bill

My husband found the website, I thought it might make you laugh.

I have a CD of the opening ceremonies of the Bejing Olympic Games, I wanted to watch the dancing , because I am interested in theater and missed the event when it was broadcast on TV

The CD will not play in unauthorized areas, I will have to go to China to watch it.

Love Amalie
amalie
Junior Birdman
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:36 pm

Re: Database

Post by amalie »

TELL ME WHY

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ike

THIS SHOULD NOT BE
amalie
Junior Birdman
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:36 pm

Re: Database

Post by amalie »

Dear Genii,

I am trying to talk to all of you at once, but have quoted your thread below

Arc -

" Adapting existing packages may be a lot easier than trying the ground-up approach. I also think the map, flow, interlinking , concept to concept approach will yield an intuitive progression."

Yes this is exactly where I have trying to get too as well, as you say the software segue has a fine rhythm and flow because it is based in the mathematical complexity of what is... reality.

Everyone is looking down a set of blinkers, all they can think about is more and more complexity, more and more innovation, we already have more than enough equipment and software to do the whole job, to configure the entire systems that can run the planet , it's just a matter of joining up the already existing components . I shouldn't say so but " space policy " is one part, we will need that as well.

Natecull -

"The idea was popularized by Tim Berners-Lee", I can't stand semantic web, because I had early experience with deep semantic structure . Cambridge Language Research Laboratory 1970's .

I think Tim's approach is fairly superficial because semantics is primarily cultural but Berners- Lee never mentions that fact at all apart from his references to "folks'" not volk but nearly .. who are these people , in imagination only .

I like your idea about categories

"a category for 'Scientists', a category for 'Theories', a category for 'Organisations', a category for 'Publications', a category for 'Devices', and then link them by relations"

That is how the semantic web must really work , but it is a concept far more based upon the " virtual " relationship between objects which is a social and cultural condition and not a great deal to do with seeking out linguistic tags .

If you take the cultural approach then semantic structures immediately becomes real world structures and semantic tagging becomes totally available because people want access to all categories and will subscribe for the space servers .

That is the best way to get us out of this mess . I agree with everyone here that all the software to do this is free ,
it just needs joining up . Plans can be laid out as small model flow charts and systems analysis networks , then blown up for replication on the global scale, which is when the investment and participation comes in .

Satellites can perhaps be obtained as sponsored inter- governmental development agencies under space policy umbrellas I am working on that side.

The forum team would be coming up from the ground based ( available software ) side , open-cog might join in eventually once we make a start , they know the policy condition is key factor, but for some reason they think they can crack this through a sheer force of original applications.

I have asked open cog for support but they just say we are busy and go right on, when the far easier route is to make the existing applications work for you, not because you have more oversights re Berners -Lee ideas , but because you have more participation at all levels via the semantic cultural constructs, for protected civil society data exchanges, e-government attributes and so on. It is actually much safer and more democratic that way as well , less chance of exclusion....

What will they do with opencog when it is finished, they should give it to us for the NPO

This is where trickfox came in

Amalie
natecull
Keeper of the Flame
Posts: 437
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Database

Post by natecull »

amalie wrote:
Natecull -

"The idea was popularized by Tim Berners-Lee", I can't stand semantic web, because I had early experience with deep semantic structure . Cambridge Language Research Laboratory 1970's .

I think Tim's approach is fairly superficial because semantics is primarily cultural but Berners- Lee never mentions that fact at all apart from his references to "folks'" not volk but nearly .. who are these people , in imagination only .
I'm sorry, but if you say you 'can't stand semantic web' merely because of some idea that semantics is something to do with culture, then you haven't really been paying attention to the field of recent Web technology. I know nothing about what the Cambridge Language Research Laboratory may or may not have done in the 1970s, but the word 'semantic' as used by computer and database people today has very little to do with the word 'semantics' as used by anthropologists and linguists and philosophers. It only implies 'data type'. The connections, if any, are through logic.

Do you have any familiarity with SQL? Relational databases? Semantic Web is much more like that than like social science.


I like your idea about categories
...
That is how the semantic web must really work
Yes. That is in fact how it *does* work. Small-scale applications, little piece by little piece. Use it like SQL. Build up defined datasets. Then use it to slowly glue those datasets together. Don't try to eat the world in one gulp.
The forum team would be coming up from the ground based ( available software ) side , open-cog might join in eventually once we make a start , they know the policy condition is key factor, but for some reason they think they can crack this through a sheer force of original applications.

I have asked open cog for support but they just say we are busy and go right on, when the far easier route is to make the existing applications work for you, not because you have more oversights re Berners -Lee ideas , but because you have more participation at all levels via the semantic cultural constructs, for protected civil society data exchanges, e-government attributes and so on. It is actually much safer and more democratic that way as well , less chance of exclusion....

What will they do with opencog when it is finished, they should give it to us for the NPO

Whoa there. OpenCog? I have absolutely no interest in them at all. You're talking about strong AI, that has very little to do with what I'm talking about, which is adding very limited semantic tagging to Wikis and thus generating collaborative databases for small, focused social networks like this forum.

Forgive me for being a little grumpy but far too many computer-savvy people make this very strange leap that Semantic Web somehow means 'strong AI', based on nothing more than a few words that happen to be used by two very different disciplines, and then toss the whole thing away as useless. It no more means AI than XML or SQL does.

Let me point you again at http://referata.com. THIS is what RDF means right now. Clickable editable data wikis.
Going on a journey, somewhere far out east
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
natecull
Keeper of the Flame
Posts: 437
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:35 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Database

Post by natecull »

amalie wrote:Everyone is looking down a set of blinkers, all they can think about is more and more complexity, more and more innovation, we already have more than enough equipment and software to do the whole job, to configure the entire systems that can run the planet , it's just a matter of joining up the already existing components .

We don't though, actually. If anything, we have too *little* complexity, too little discussion, too little democracy.

a) Humans as a whole do not agree on what 'the whole job' of running the planet is -- we don't even agree on *if* we should agree to 'run the planet' as a whole at all! So we're not going to get very far trying to formalise something we don't agree on. When people try to speed up the process - they usually do so by making their opponents die.

Certainly, for any group X and Y where X does not trust Y, X will not (or at least SHOULD not) let Y write *software* to automatically impose Y's will on X. That sort of thing starts wars and revolutions, you know? 'No automation without representation' seriously needs to be a motto somewhere, if it isn't already.


b) 'just a matter of joining up already existing components' IS the definition of complexity. System A + System B == System C, which is a whole new system and behaves in different ways to its parts. Surely you reduce complexity by removing systems, not by creating new ones. And when you have to remove systems, see a) above. Humans don't take kindly to having their languages, cultures and jobs made redundant, even *when* their lives depend on it. (In fact, in times of war and disaster, that's exactly when we get the MOST corruption and bad decisionmaking.)

I'm not saying we don't need a global systems view, of the kind Buckminster Fuller talked about, but we need to be very, very careful about how we go about theorising and implementing such a thing, bearing in mind that at all points we may very well be totally wrong and our actions could do more harm than good. We need to allow many voices to be heard and allow solutions to emerge from the crowd, rather than trying to impose our will on the world, even for the best of reasons.

I shouldn't say so but " space policy " is one part, we will need that as well.
See, even there reasonable people can agree to disagree. Even having a 'space policy' is only important if you think there's actually anything important *in* space.

Me, I'm not sure. There's a whole lot of nothing up there. Cubic metric bloody parsecs of nothing.

There's a bit of rock of dubious construction value on the Moon, which is only useful if you have somewhere you want to send a tin can and people you want to put in it. No water or oxygen to speak of. A bit of solar energy, diminishing as you go up-Well. Whatever do you want to invest in that for? You'd have far better returns in the Gobi Desert or the Mariani Trench. The most valuable thing in the solar system we've found so far is biological life, and we've got all of that right here.

We're not going to 'migrate into space' as a race. There's just nowhere to go, nothing to do, and nothing to sell to pay for it that isn't already cheaper. Frankly the only real uses for space I can see are communications and mapping satellites, and weapons. The commercial space launch industry's got the first one covered and USAF has the second, and neither are going to necessarily agree to give up their rights to someone waving a bit of paper.

If you want to de-weaponise space, you're probably going to have to do so at the point of an ICBM (or a UFO), which kind of defeats the purpose. Or wait for a huge shift in public attitude such that people spontaneously decide that pointing any kind of weapon at our fellow man makes us less safe.

Hope I'm not being too harsh, but you've asked for reflection and feedback on your ideas, and this is what I'm telling you. Don't try for huge world visions until you're sure that people *want* them.
Going on a journey, somewhere far out east
We'll find the time to show you, wonders never cease
amalie
Junior Birdman
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:36 pm

Re: Database

Post by amalie »

Dear Natcull ,

Thank for the response.

I feel it is a bit odd how the my argument for a global meta-map seems to always reach the the same circular route .

The impression I generally get is that such a proposal is primarily being seen as an "imposition " that is something imposed from outside , which it could not be and which I never even suggested.

There must be the consideration that if a " meta map " or international space and information based oversight were obtained would that be a very democratic organism ..which it could be.

So I would like to say yet again , that there is no reason why oversight should not mean full and equal participation.

The job of "running the planet " is not initially a job of agreement , although that is how the "running of the planet " would be obtained ..by agreement .

The task of oversight and practical applicability for " running the planet " is an information based one , which innovators like Kurtsweiler and so on well understand .

This world is going into the "information Age " now and there is not much we can do to stop that either . What we can do though is ensure that such a transformative capacity is used in the safest , kindest and most protected way possible, hence the need for international oversights .

We do not want to see warfare and the death of opponents , that is all human history now , the new world is a different one and the problems are different ones as well .

Fighting for resources will not be carried out at the point of a gun , it will as you say be a matter of how the software programs are configured and who uses them . " no automation without representation" would mean global democracy in the form of safe cyberspace international data banks for the assurance of a civil society requisites . Without that the future will become even more dangerous for so many .

What I was trying to say about complexity is that there is not much need to go on continually creating generation after generation of information based tools , when the ones we have already if properly used can achieve so much more.

Results here are not necessarily depending upon what you have but how you use it .

Nothing should be made redundant for people by proper oversight , in fact complexity is enhanced because greater resources become available for further and more complex cultural and social manifestations, and a complexity of economic undertakings. Why should oversight mean less complexity, when genuine oversight implementations manifest complexity as a integral attribute and end result.

Information based oversights should and would reduce warfares and greatly assist for disasters , not because they are yet one more inept and partisan decsision making vehicle , but because they preempt such disasters through the collation of mass data's and open international process for analysis and forward planning .

You could call this public diplomacy or environmentalism , it means dealing with the problems in a co-operative way before they occur . Data banks allows us a window into what has been , what is and what will be, something that has never been possible in human history before .

Democracy is a careful process because it must contain all valid points of reference to be complete .

Trans - political and information based " democracy " is an even more careful structure, because it does not address political theory but the information based status of the actual condition , and that must be one that is available to all .

Solutions in that way would come from both directions, from oversight and from participation , but only because in space we have the universal medium which is the "information Age " , otherwise we will have nothing , no phones , no computers, nothing with which to reach each other and transform the world .

It makes people happy to go somewhere grand , the moon is a magnificent desolation , and there might just be an energy source up there in the Helium three dust . enough to power this planet for a few thousands more years .

" someone waving a bit of paper " is not what space policy is about . International law is not a "bit of paper " it is the way in which an international community communicates and functions.

Space will be de- weaponized because in space everything can be a weapon , aggressive uses are one style , co-operative uses another .

Within well focused international space utilities referendums , space based aggression is available for those that break the established human rights mandates, in which case they will be excluded from the international communications nets, co-operation is available for those that wish to work together to enable resource conservation, public education, investment, growth and prosperity.

People everywhere want the "world vision " of course they do not want it from me , or from any other individual . but that does not mean that it will not happen in a bit .

Amalie
amalie
Junior Birdman
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:36 pm

Re: Database

Post by amalie »

Dear Natecull ,

Well you guessed , I am no computer specialist , so perhaps I am objecting to the use of the word "semantic "
which has now been adopted from the original meaning .

In my mind though semantic still means linked to language and I do not understand why computer professionals seem so intent in divesting human language of all meaning other than as a tag to find the given file .

I feel that a far better way of finding a file through language would be to allow individuals and all types of subscribers the privilege of tagging their own information for themselves within a social or even administrative context. In fact for a global or meta-informational system this sort of alternative process will be absolutely necessary .

There has been a fair amount of egomania floating around recently, my fault because I did try to open a conversation here about space policy, not so successfully I might add, so things got a bit off key in the end.

It makes me sad to see people like open-cog group with their nose to the grindstone and no real vision for a future world . I know very well that if the US space policy topic gets opened up , such groups will be the first ones to start thinking about how an informational meta-map could be obtained.

But they will not open the policy box themselves, rather just indulge in dreams about downloading their brains after they are dead, and using super computer lap tops . This world is dying, a proper space policy might save it.

I like your wiki tools , they are very realistic , but they can also model much larger systems within the same basic principles. The whole world could become a wiki if you knew what that would work for, and if people wanted it ... well of course everything has to be wanted if it is going to be of use .

Here is a link to science debate 2008 the Presidential Candidates talking about science , A great deal of the discussion is around information technology , some is on space policy, check out who is sponsoring the debate , just about every academic body in the US and then some ...

http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=42

Amalie
amalie
Junior Birdman
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:36 pm

ALMA the soul

Post by amalie »

Dear Forum ,

Such big stuff and what a wonderful location ...

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... 83382.html

I wish I understood the workings, no scientist at all I am afraid,
but even so is impressive to see the tremendous scale of what is being done to ensure our place in the universe

Amalie
Locked