It's a small world after all.

A place to engage extended discussions of things that come up on the ttbrown.com website. Anything goes here, as long as it's somehow pertinent to the subject(s) at hand.
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grinder
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renegade sub off Hawaii?

Post by grinder »

have been getting bits and pieces of this little story. It seems to exist just beneath the surface of the Glomar Explorer main mission and I just wondered how valid the thought might be. Someone wrote a book by collecting the unsubtantiated rumors but I can't remember what it was called. I'm thinking at this point I should read the damned thing because pretty obviously there is alot going on here that even the " just released classified files " are not showing.

This whole site is really interesting and carefully put together but I was rattled when I got to the very end and found this and I thought .... yeah ... just maybe .......

http://mikekemble.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/k129.html

"March 06: Following an email which claimed all sorts of "conspiracy theories" and "facts" that are unsubstantiated, I took the liberty of contacting GCHQ here in the UK for an opinion based on their extensive Intelligence knowledge of the world and received this reply: The ‘chat room debate’ (?) on the idea that the Soviet submarine that sank in the Pacific in 1968 was intending to attack Pearl Harbour (or some other American location) sounds equally fantastic. We are not aware of any official American or Russian statement on the sinking or on the alleged later American attempts to recover the submarine (although the latter has been described so many times, and with such a wealth of detail, that it would be surprising if there were not some truth in it). Basically they admit that they think there were attempts to recover a submarine but that it was NOT hell bent on an attack on Pearl Harbour. Something as potentially devastating as a nuclear attack on an American base would have echoed around all the Intelligence community with the same effects as the Twin Towers Disaster Mass Murders in New York. Although conspiracies won't go away, I am reasonably satisfied that this was not a "rogue attack" by a renegade Soviet madman a la Hunt for Red Oktober style! But, then again, who am I? Just an amateur researcher."

HUH I thought. grinder
Trickfox
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Clementine

Post by Trickfox »

Clementine (the big claw device used to lift the broken Soviet sub) was kept at a remote location called "Isthmus Bay" on Catalina Island. I guess that would also be the area where the Glomar Explorer AND the Halibut submarine anchored. Acording to article shown in webpage quoted.
This narrows down an area on Catalina Island where Dr. Brown must have been seen to visit.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=33.4 ... =1&layer=t

Trickfox
Last edited by Trickfox on Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Elizabeth Helen Drake
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connections

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Trickfox,

Do you remember the link to that information about the Claw and the Glomar Explorer right off of Catalina?

Elizabeth
Trickfox
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source

Post by Trickfox »

The Sub Committee Report Magazine. September 2002 Edition.

(quoted in http://mikekemble.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/k129.html )

I added the google map showing Isthmus Cove, -Right next to "fourth of july" cove

There is a third cove in there but I haven't found the name just yet.


Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
Trickfox
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Re: source

Post by Trickfox »

Trickfox wrote:The Sub Committee Report Magazine. September 2002 Edition.

(quoted in http://mikekemble.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/k129.html )

I added the google map showing Isthmus Cove, -Right next to "fourth of july" cove

There is a third cove in there but I haven't found the name just yet.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&t=k&om= ... 00692&z=17

Can anyone identify this facility just south east of Isthmus cove?
The road to it is not indicated in google, so I'll try to find it otherwise.

it looks like the perfect place to build something. less boats around.

Trickfox
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
flowperson
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Post by flowperson »

Trickfox...Unless I'm greatly mistaken the view that you posted of the anchorage area at Catalina is of an area known as Two Harbors, since there are harbors on both the NE and SW sides of the island's isthmus. The view you posted is of the NE harbors and most of what you're looking at is a complex of buildings, etc. that belongs to the University of Southern California. Here's some information concerning that facility:

http://wrigley.usc.edu/msc/index.html


Since USC is a private institution, they would probably would've had no problem accepting contracts to host the Glomar back in the day.

flow.... 8)
Dancing is better than marching
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Fly-by of the laboratory

Post by Trickfox »

http://wrigley.usc.edu/live/wrigleypromo_bb.asx

If you have windows MEDIA you can click here and do a fly-by of the facility, and imagine the Glomar Explorer docked at the peer.

WEEEEEE........

Would like to find some historical record on the property owned by the Wrigleys. Was it always owned by them? What was this place in the mid to late seventies?

So many questions!!!!

Trickfox
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twigsnapper
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trivia actually

Post by twigsnapper »

Nice work Trickfox,

A couple of things mentioned of interest. One that Cravens wrote a book called " Silent War" where in it he postulated that there were " scenario PROBABILITIES( note the use of that particular word instead of POSSIBILITIES) that the lost sub may in fact have been a rogue which had surfaced, and begun a countdown to fire its missiles before the " explosion.

The fact that one crewman body found near the wreckage was attired in his heavy weather gear spoke to the fact that the man was most likely on the deck with the explosion occured meaning she was surfaced, which would have been her position prior to a launch.


And another interestng tidbit, You might note that the original name for the project was supposed to be "Azorian" but was changed to "Jennifer" after the visit to Catalina. twigsnapper
grinder
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Rogue sub

Post by grinder »

Kenneth Sewell wrote an entire book about this called " Red Star Rogue" and here is the write up on it ...... interesting ..........

Download Description
"One of the great secrets of the Cold War, hidden for decades, is revealed at last. Early in 1968 a nuclear-armed Soviet submarine sank in the waters off Hawaii, hundreds of miles closer to American shores than it should have been. Compelling evidence, assembled here for the first time, strongly suggests that the sub, K-129, sank while attempting to fire a nuclear missile, most likely at the naval base at Pearl Harbor. We now know that the Soviets had lost track of the sub; it had become a rogue. While the Soviets searched in vain for the boat, U.S. intelligence was able to pinpoint the site of the disaster. The new Nixon administration launched a clandestine, half-billion-dollar project to recover the sunken K-129. Contrary to years of deliberately misleading reports, the recovery operation was a great success. With the recovery of the sub, it became clear that the rogue was attempting to mimic a Chinese submarine, almost certainly with the intention of provoking a war between the U.S. and China. This was a carefully planned operation that, had it succeeded, would have had devastating consequences. During the successful recovery effort, the U.S. forged new relationships with the USSR and China. Could the information gleaned from the sunken sub have been a decisive factor shaping the new policies of détente between the Americans and the Soviets, and opening China to the West? And who in the USSR could have planned such a bold and potentially catastrophic operation? Red Star Rogue reads like something straight out of a Tom Clancy novel, but it is all true. Today our greatest fear is that terrorists may someday acquire a nuclear weapon and use it against us. In fact, they have already tried. "

Now thats scarey shit. grinder
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Wrigley in the Caroline group???

Post by Trickfox »

look at the evidence

The island changed hands numerous times before it was purchased by William Wrigley Jr. in 1919, who began modern development on Catalina.

it means that the Isthmus Cove dock was allready owned by Wrigley, so he was probably contributing to the government by helping to hide the CIA'S EQUIPMENT back then.
Philip K. Wrigley, seamlessly followed in his father's footsteps and his contributions can still be seen and felt today. Perhaps the most evident is the re-design of downtown Avalon. In 1934, he directed designers Otis and Dorothy Shepard to give Avalon a cohesive, Early California feel. This re-design included planting palm trees, building a serpentine wall, installing fountains, redoing signage all throughout Avalon and developing a bright and distictive color palette used in many building projects. 'Pier Green' is still delightfully evident today. Perhaps Philip K. Wrigley's most lasting contribution was the creation of the Catalina Island Conservancy, which was given 88% of the Island in the mid-1970s to protect from overdevelopment and conserve native species.

The onset of World War II brought significant change to the Island. After the attack on Pearl Harbor in December of 1941, the Island was closed to tourism. Soon after the Island's steamships were requisitioned by the United States military to be used as troop transports and visitation to the Island ceased. The Santa Catalina Island Company offered use of the Island to the United States government. Several branches of the military answered the call and by 1943 the United States Maritime Service, United States Coast Guard, Army Signal Corp, and the Office of Strategic Services had operations on the Island. The United States Maritime Service took over Avalon and set up a training station for its many recruits. The United States Coast Guard also had a training station at the Isthmus. The Army Signal Corps had a sophisticated radar station in the interior of the Island and the Office of Strategic Services (now known as the CIA) had a small training facility at Toyon Bay. Government use of the Island continued until the end of the war. At that time, the steamships were returned and the Island was once again open to tourism.
Located two and a half miles by water from the city of Avalon, Toyon Bay is an ideal site for outdoor education!

Originally built as a private boarding school in 1929, Toyon boasts an ideal combination of attributes for the educational camp experience. The campus incorporates comfortable dormitory accommodations; fantastic indoor and outdoor dining facilities; modern, state-of-the-art laboratories, aquariums, classrooms and display areas with the untouched natural beauty of Catalina Island's land and sea environments.
http://www.guideddiscoveries.org/conten ... ID=17&L=54
The perfect OSS/CIA training facility if you ask me.



more:
Project Jennifer - Public disclosure

Project Jennifer - The New York Times suppresses its story
In early 1974, investigative reporter and former Timesman Seymour Hersh had planned to publish a story on Project Jennifer. Bill Kovach, the New York Times Washington bureau chief at the time, said in 2005 that the government offered a convincing argument to delay publication in early 1974 -- exposure at that time, while the project was ongoing, "would have caused an international incident." The Times eventually published its account in 1975, after a story appeared in the Los Angeles Times, and included a five-paragraph explanation of the many twists and turns in the path to publication. [1]


Project Jennifer - Burglary and press reports
On June 5, 1974, Howard Hughes' headquarters in Los Angeles was burglarized, and secret documents about the operation were taken. These papers would become the foundation of the story on Project Jennifer in the Los Angeles Times on February 7, 1975. After it appeared, the CIA attempted to convince news media to not publish further stories on the project. But by March 1975, numerous news stories had linked the Hughes Glomar Explorer, a ship publicly listed as a research vessel owned and operated by Summa Corporation, to the secret US government operation.


Project Jennifer - FOIA and the Glomar response
After stories had been published about the CIA's attempts to stop publication of information about Project Jennifer, Harriet Ann Phillippi, a journalist, filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the CIA for any records about the CIA’s attempts. The CIA refused to either confirm or deny the existence of such documents. This type of evasive reply has since come to be known as the "Glomar response" or "Glomarization."


Other related archives
1968, 1972, 1974, 1975, 1990s, 1997, 2003, Halibut (SSN-587), August 12, CIA, Central Intelligence Agency, Cold War, February 7, Freedom of Information Act, Glomar Explorer, Glomar response, Hawaii, Henry Kissinger, Howard Hughes, Hughes Mining Barge, July 4, June 5, Los Angeles Times, March 8, NOVA, National Security Advisor, November 1, Pacific Ocean, Russia, SOSUS, Soviet K-129 submarine, Summa Corporation, US, US military, United States, code name, hydrophone, manganese nodules, ship
The psychopropulsier (as pointed out in the book The Good-bye man by Linda Brown and Jan Lofton) is a Quantum entanglement project under development using Quantum Junctions. Join us at http://www.Peeteelab.com
flowperson
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Post by flowperson »

Wondering out loud here if the original name for the recovery of the
k-129 ."azorian" was a recognition that its location in the Pacific was an antipode of the Azores Islands in the Atlantic ? Don't have a globe here so I can't check that. Anyone else ? Anybody got an idea about the name, "jennifer"? Just my thingy about names you understand.

flow.... 8)
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Elizabeth Helen Drake
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didn't know that

Post by Elizabeth Helen Drake »

Good questions Flow, I am sure the answers are out there somewhere and they will come to the surface. Regarding the antipodes of various places, I need a globe, thats for sure! This is ridiculous!

Trickfox!
Thanks for that last link on on Catalina. I did not know that the OSS had a facility on the Island. ( Toyon bay is just a few coves away from Avalon Bay and a beautiful spot.) Lucky people to have been stationed there! The perfect spot to train commandos however and certainly an isolated spot. It can be isolated now, I can just imagine what it would be like with all travel to and from the island halted during World War II. And I didn't know about the special radar installation either.

Slick? any further comments? You sure know more about the Island than I do! Any rumors of strange stuff going on in the past? Or even NOW for that matter! And I am sure glad you named this thread what you named it because it is PERFECT.

Anybody figure out yet why Dr. Brown really moved to Catalina? Perhaps he knew about those earlier posts? Anybody else on Catalina reading this? Can you add anything? Does anybody remember meeting Dr. And Josephine Brown during the seventies? Please let us hear from you?

Paul is going to come back to this forum tomorrow morning and wonder what the heck we were all drinking! Nothing like a whole winebarrel of enthusiasm for his subject! Elizabeth
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Hardly

Post by Paul S. »

Elizabeth Helen Drake wrote:Paul is going to come back to this forum tomorrow morning and wonder what the heck we were all drinking! Nothing like a whole winebarrel of enthusiasm for his subject! Elizabeth
More like "what kind of monster have I created?"

Lemme get 63 out there for you all to pounce on, and then I'll try to sort out what the webs you've been weaving here while sane people are trying to take the day off...<g>

Like any of us is sane?

--PS
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BEEN QUIET

Post by Victoria Steele »

I want you to appreciate how quiet I have been for the last few days because I just knew if I posted that I couldn't refrain from going .... huh, huh, huh, huh? So tomorrow then? I'll make sure to check often.

Oh, when you get back to the discussion we were all having ( sort of) the picture of Dr. Brown and Mr. Twigsnapper and the sailors in Paris in 1956 ... I wondered if you could post that picture again so maybe someone out there might be able to tell us what branch those sailors belong to? Obviously Navy but wouldn't it be cool if someone could identify their section or ship? I am thoroughly convinced that answers to these questions are out there just waiting to come in your direction Paul. They just need an invitation! Whenever you get a chance. All this talk of subs and Glomar Explorer and stuff I thought people would like to see that picture again.

Tomorrow then!

As for this thread .... Blame Slick <g> ! She started it! Victoria
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Post by Mikado14 »

flowperson wrote:Wondering out loud here if the original name for the recovery of the
k-129 ."azorian" was a recognition that its location in the Pacific was an antipode of the Azores Islands in the Atlantic ? Don't have a globe here so I can't check that. Anyone else ? Anybody got an idea about the name, "jennifer"? Just my thingy about names you understand.

flow.... 8)
I believe that SLickG mentioned that that was Dr. Browns's grand daughter.

Couldn't be......could it?

Mikado
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