NOTEPAD for RANDOM IDEAS

[Linda Brown]

Griffin,

Your remark to Magic I have reprinted here.
"Your interchange with Nate and the “What is Sputtering” article seems somehow deja vuish to me. Perhaps if I was a scientist I would know how. But it seems to resonate with what TTB explained to me about how the propulsion system of the Adamski flying disc worked. I think he did this to reassure me that it was a genuine interplanetary and interdimensional flying craft. I understood his explanation while he was explaining it. It's a beautiful, elegant concept. The whole craft is alive with energy in a sort of dance, interaction and interchange of charged ions. I can’t reproduce his explanation, but this “sputtering” concept seems to ring a bell (ha-ha). Consider the Adamski Flying “Model A” Bell in this light and see what may ring true for you."

And the only question I have to the above is this. Is there a difference between " sputtering" and " pulsed discharges". Seems to me that the idea of " sputtering" conveys a sort of random thing ... whereas the pulsed situation would be more controlled. Would this make a difference, I wonder?

I know this feeling all too well " I understood his explanation while he was explaining it". Boy have I been there before! Its been lonely mentally without him. Linda

[twigsnapper]

And then there is the listening part.


Remember Linda that you once asked your Father .... what about a microphone?

Anybody know the name of Alexander M. Poniatoff?

William Lear to Alexander ......." Boy you better get down here and take a look at this." ( speaking of the very early development of the fan/loudspeaker/)

Ah, what would a guy like me do without these guys. twigsnapper

[Paul S.]

Looks like the Germans were playing with this concept as early as 1929. They were probably looking at it heavily during WWII and maybe this was why Dr. Brown was looking for Germans.

Bill, where do you get that idea (that the Germans were working on ion propulsion in the 20s) ?

I'm a tad leery when I see the word "probably," because that's a substitute for evidence, and once "probably" has been tossed in the equation, you can follow just about anything with a "maybe."

Which is not to say it's not possible, and the subject of ion propulsion has risen before. It seems a natural extension of the EHD theories for which the fan and loudspeaker were considered "ashtray" products. That raises the obvious question, if those were "ashtray," throw-away products, then... what was the real thing?

--PS

[Paul S.]

Anybody know the name of Alexander M. Poniatoff?

Founder of AMPEX Corp, built the first video recording devices:

http://www.ce.org/Events/Awards/468.htm

I remember those old quadriplex (four head) machines... they were becoming dinosaurs about the time I arrived in Hollywood in the mid 70s. Soon replaced with helical-scan machines.

Now even those are dinosaurs, as it is all done with digital.

So if Poniatoff knew about the microphone, or even the speaker, why didn't he ever manufacture them?

Or did he?

--PS

[Paul S.]

Rereading this thread as suggested....25 pages down, 93 to go. Does anyone have a cure for bleary eyes?

We all expect a full report when you're finished.

Or a Cliff-Notes version.

--PS

[htmagic]

Looks like the Germans were playing with this concept as early as 1929. They were probably looking at it heavily during WWII and maybe this was why Dr. Brown was looking for Germans.

Bill, where do you get that idea (that the Germans were working on ion propulsion in the 20s) ?

I'm a tad leery when I see the word "probably," because that's a substitute for evidence, and once "probably" has been tossed in the equation, you can follow just about anything with a "maybe."

Which is not to say it's not possible, and the subject of ion propulsion has risen before. It seems a natural extension of the EHD theories for which the fan and loudspeaker were considered "ashtray" products. That raises the obvious question, if those were "ashtray," throw-away products, then... what was the real thing?

--PS

Paul,

Read the Wikipedia link I posted. It says:

The first experiments with ion thrusters were carried out by Robert Goddard at Clark College from 1916-1917. The technique was recommended for near-vacuum conditions at high altitude, but thrust was demonstrated with ionized air streams at atmospheric pressure. The idea appeared again in Hermann Oberth's "Wege zur Raumschiffahrt” (Ways to Spaceflight), published in 1929, where he explained his thoughts on the mass savings of electric propulsion, predicted its use in spacecraft propulsion and attitude control, and advocated electrostatic acceleration of charged gases.

So I say probably because I'm not sure if any experiments were conducted at that time. I'm sure by WWI *****edit**** (I mean WWII), however, research got more intense and this may have received more attention.

MagicBill

[Paul S.]

So I say probably because I'm not sure if any experiments were conducted at that time. I'm sure by WWI, however, research got more intense and this may have received more attention.

"probably," but you're "not sure"; You are "sure by WWI" (did you mean II?) research..."may have received...."

Bill, take those "weasel words" out of your posts, and what have you really got?

"Probably" + "may have" = pure speculation.

--PS

[htmagic]

Paul,

I meant WWII. We know the Germans were heavy into research for discovering technologies to win the war.
Yes, it is speculation since I wasn't there and wasn't even a glimmer in my daddy's eye at that time.

We know the Germans were into rocketry and the Nazi Bell and it is conceivable that they could be involved in this type of research. If the author was German, then Nazi Germany probably embraced it as it was not 'Jewish physics'.

I did some more research on Hermann Oberth. He was at Peenemünde in 1941 to work on the V-2. But I was most interested in this tidbit.

In 1960, in the United States again, he went to work for Convair as a technical consultant on the Atlas rocket.

So he was with Floyd Odlum's company.

It is also interesting to note that he also believed in ETs in the 1950s and 1960s, just like Dr. Brown. I wonder if they crossed paths since they had similar interests?

A bowl of speculations, maybe's, and 'what ifs' for you to ponder...

MagicBill

[Griffin]

It can be helpful to remember the quote attributed to Einstein, which is something like: "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" Questions, possibilities and speculation can lead to hypotheses and theories, research and testing, and perhaps at least temporary validation and applicable, working knowledge -- "proof" in a word.

We're still definitely in the research stage in this rabbit hole, IMO. Proof is mostly a glimmer farther down this tunnel. Although, on a personal level, I’ve proved the reality of this “stuff” to my own satisfaction.

Griffin

[Griffin]

Yes, Linda.

How wonderful it would be to have him physically with us again. But Twigsnapper's response made me ponder. The whole interdimensional visitation and communication scenario does hinge to a large degree on our willingness and ability to listen -- the "listening part" as Twigsnapper aptly put it. Who knows what's being sent across the seeming divide, by whom, and when?

As ever, listening to the silence and the depths of time,

Griffin

[Griffin]

Linda-

You wrote:
And the only question I have to the above is this. Is there a difference between " sputtering" and " pulsed discharges". Seems to me that the idea of " sputtering" conveys a sort of random thing ... whereas the pulsed situation would be more controlled. Would this make a difference, I wonder?

My comment:
This is what we need our tech and science oriented folks to clarify. Words and labels in science as anywhere else, though they try their best to be as precise as possible, usually only convey approximations of what is being described. But "pulsed" does sound like more of a constant.

As ever,

Griffin

[Trickfox]

Is this the word everyone is looking for here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic

I have this one math book which fascinates me to no end (pun intended)
http://books.google.ca/books?id=uUzA9cv ... UA#PPP1,M1
I can barely understand 1% of anything in this book yet somehow I know there are several answers waiting for me to find in there because someone else took the time and effort to lay a foundation of non-contradictry notions which COULD be as true as "beauty" itself is.

I open it and try to read it often, skimming over the names of the concepts (and authors of such concepts) Godel is one of my favorites (Q), however Zeno, Cantor, and Russell all seem to meander into the abstract also. Funny thing is....every time I open it and read it these days I understand it better and better every time. I'm really having a lot of fun because of this. This is specially true of "new information" which continues to find it's way into my sphere of recognition.

Strangely enough, I too am getting use to the rabbit hole. "Living the moment" is becomming the most precious experience.
Sharing the moment becomes the ultimate quest.

I hope I have been able to share my moments well with all of you.

I believe this is only a begining and there is much more to come.

A toast everyone.......

Trickfox

Fred.... Check this out. it will kick your butt. http://steveroach.com/Features/Void/Void.html

[natecull]

Anybody know the name of Alexander M. Poniatoff?

Founder of AMPEX Corp, built the first video recording devices:

http://www.ce.org/Events/Awards/468.htm

--PS

And a radar guy. Specifically, working with the very highly classified magnetron units that came over from the UK. Seems like everyone in the recording industry has roots in the black world. If the Devil doesn't have the best music, William Stephenson probably does.

As an experienced electrical engineer, he was in demand moving from GE to PG&E to Dalmo-Victor during World War II. There, he perfected a line of motors and generators for airborne radar systems. The wartime manufacturer of airborne radar motors became skilled at adapting its precision-tuned motors to German technology that had been developed to record sound on tape.

In 1944, Poniatoff founded his own company in Redwood City, Calif., using his initials, A.M.P., plus "ex" for "excellence" to create the name, Ampex. When singer Bing Crosby staked Ampex Corp. to develop audio recording equipment after World War II, the company began a venture that has created many of the major innovations in commercial recording technology and produced the first U.S.-built magnetic audio tape recorder in 1948 revolutionizing the radio industry.

Intriguing.

Welcome my son, welcome to the machine. Where have you been? It's all right, we know where you've been.

[natecull]

Btw, another FYI on ion thrusters. This came through Slashdot.org today:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ation.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VASIMR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Chang-Diaz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetopla ... c_thruster

DATE:05/08/08
SOURCE:Flight International
NASA to test plasma engine on space station
By Rob Coppinger

NASA expects to sign an agreement to test a new propulsion system on the International Space Station, according to the US space agency's administrator Michael Griffin.

At the AirVenture show in Oshkosh on 29 July, Griffin was asked about the status of NASA's advanced space propulsion research. His reply referred to the Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (Vasimir).

The Vasimir involves the injection of a gas such as hydrogen into an engine that turns it into a plasma. That plasma is then energised further using radio signals as it flows through the engine, a process controlled by electromagnetic waves from superconducting magnets. Accelerated and heated through this process the plasma is focused and directed as exhaust by a magnetic nozzle. Vasimir is many times more efficient than conventional chemical rockets and far less fuel is needed.

Griffin says that the next step for the Vasimir is to operate it in space and that "we are at the end stages of agreeing a co-operative agreement for NASA to test the Vasimir engine on station".

The Vasimir engine taken to the ISS would be a scale-model test engine. Griffin says he does not know whether that scale-model engine would be launched by a Space Shuttle and would not give a timescale for Vasimir's possible deployment to the ISS.

The agency signed an agreement in 2006 to co-operate on Vasimir with the Texas based-Ad Astra Rocket corporation. Vasimir was originally conceived by Ad Astra Rocket chief executive and former NASA astronaut Franklin Chang-Díaz.

The Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (VASIMR) is an electro-thermal thruster for spacecraft propulsion. It uses radio waves to ionize a propellant and magnetic fields to accelerate the resulting plasma to generate thrust.

The method of heating plasma used in VASIMR was originally developed as a result of research into nuclear fusion. VASIMR is intended to bridge the gap between high-thrust, low-specific impulse propulsion systems and low-thrust, high-specific impulse systems. VASIMR is capable of functioning in either mode. The Costa Rican scientist and astronaut Franklin Chang-Diaz created the VASIMR concept and has been working on its development since 1979.

Chang-Diaz was born in San José, Costa Rica to a father of Chinese and Spanish descent and a Spanish Costa Rican mother (both Costa Rican-born) and moved to the United States to finish his high school education. He earned a B.S. degree in mechanical engineering from the University of Connecticut in 1973, and a Sc.D. degree in applied plasma physics from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in 1977. For his graduate research at MIT, Chang-Diaz worked in the field of fusion technology and plasma-based rocket propulsion.

NASA career

Chang-Diaz was selected as an astronaut candidate by NASA in 1980 and first flew aboard STS-61-C in 1986. Subsequent missions included STS-34 (1989), STS-46 (1992), STS-60 (1994), STS-75 (1996), STS-91 (1998), and STS-111 (2002). During STS-111, he performed three EVAs with Philippe Perrin as part of the construction of the International Space Station. He was also director of the Advanced Space Propulsion Laboratory at the Johnson Space Center from 1993 to 2005. Chang-Diaz retired from NASA in 2005.

Current life

Chang-Diaz is an adjunct professor of physics at Rice University and at the University of Houston. Due to his career and scientific success, he has been decorated multiple times in Costa Rica and named Honor Citizen by the National Congress. The Costa Rican National High Technology Center, among other institutions, is named after him.

Busy boy.

Quasi-private development, it's not a gridded thruster, not a Hall Effect thruster, still propellant based, but again seems to be along the MHD / Lorentz force line. Especially this diagram from Wikipedia:



Torus, magnetic, axial propulsion. Maybe there's more to it but it looks to my layman's eye like a plasma pinch type device as used in the '50s fusion stuff. Frankly I'm surprised it's taken this long to turn it into a rocket. Did it need the superconducting magnets first, or could we have built one of these in the 50s if we'd wanted to?

Research on MPD thrusters has been carried out in the US, the former Soviet Union, Japan, Germany, and Italy. Experimental prototypes were first flown on Soviet spacecraft and, most recently, in 1996, on the Japanese Space Flyer Unit, which demonstrated the successful operation of a quasi-steady pulsed MPD thruster in space. Research at Moscow Aviation Institute, RKK Energiya, University of Stuttgart, ISAS, Centrospazio, Alta S.p.A.,Osaka University, University of Southern California, Princeton University's Electric Propulsion and Plasma Dynamics Lab (EEPDyL) (where MPD thruster research has continued uninterrupted since 1967), and NASA centers (Jet Propulsion Laboratory and Glenn Research Center), has resolved many problems related to the performance, stability and lifetime of MPD thrusters.

An MPD thruster was tested on board the Japanese Space Flyer Unit as part of EPEX (Electric Propulsion EXperiment) that was launched March 18, 1995 and retrieved by space shuttle mission STS-72 January 20, 1996. To date, it is the only operational MPD thruster to have flown in space as a propulsion system.

In fall 2007 the US Ad Astra Rocket Company announced a test of a life-size prototype of its "Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket" (VASIMR) thruster for January 2008. The technique is a variation of the Magnetoplasmadynamic concept and was developed by former NASA astronaut Franklin Chang-Diaz already in 1979.

I suppose what I'm wondering is whether this fairly obvious-seeming technology needs super-geniuses and huge development projects to make work, and really is that hard, or if there's some kind of 'technological throttle' going on where there are active restrictions on development and it's slowly drip-fed into the white world to prevent the black guys losing their monopoly. Or possibly both?

If it really does take a supergenius just to make a few magnetic fields line up (still just chucking rock out the back, no unconventional physics here, no ion recirculation even), and Townsend Brown cracked it and went several generations beyond in the 50s, then he must have been pretty smart. Or (devil's advocate hat), he made a few minor advances in ion-plasma propulsion and assumed the rest would be easy, and the next 50 years have proven him a bit too overoptimistic, as has happened to many many other very smart guys, and the real black stuff he was doing had nothing to do with propulsion.

[natecull]

Is this the word everyone is looking for here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic

For my dream-fragment, no, I don't think so, there was a sense of a very regular electrical vibration/duty cycle, possibly even square wave. On/off, on/off, but no polarity inversion. Like a jackhammer. Stochastic means random and this was the opposite of that. But the whole thing could of course have just been my brain doing calisthenics. Lord knows I don't fathom where it goes at night.

If you're into Goedel (and/or Douglas Hofstadter, Samuel Beckett, and Tom Stoppard), this might amuse you though:
http://imago.hitherby.com/?p=928

(Rebecca Bergstrom is a scarily bright lady. Works in roleplaying game design. If you attempt to read the whole of her Hitherby Dragons blog from the beginning, it may melt your mind. It's sort of a mix of comparative mythology, sexual abuse survivor therapy, science fiction and pop-culture, with some very dark overtones in her mythology arc that remind me strongly of MKULTRA.)