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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:10 pm
by kevin.b
Aloha, Elizabeth H D,
Do these people ring any bells with you?
Has this link any relevance to the Caroline group, Me finks so.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:47 pm
by kevin.b
Elizabeth Helen Drake,
There is reference to a Nora Weeks upon the huna site, has she ever been mentioned , especially with any connection to another Dr, Dr Bach of Oxfordshire.
His ideas of our makeup would sit comfortably with these people, he was the leading light of flower remedies, though he did die a bit young, but I don't know the circumstances?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:04 pm
by flowperson
Hi Kevin...Been doing a little web snooping regarding A.L. Kitselman jr's history. No definitive bio that I could find, but he was from a wealthy industrialist family in Muncie Indiana and his family has a long history of associations with Ball state University there.

I suppose after his time at Vega Aircraft during WWII, he was also an early associate of L. Ron Hubbard and was the inventor of E-Therapy wherein a subject is hooked to a device called an E-Meter and is interviewed with the intent of being "cleared" of psychological dissonances. This was in the early 50's before the Dianetics founding group evolved into the Church of Scientology.

He left Hubbard's circle about then (early 50's) and founded something called the Institute for Integration, in L.A. , soon left that and founded a Pyramid Lake project on a resort ranch in N. Nevada. Then I guess he practiced his mathematical abilities with TTB and others on into the 60's where he got involved in early versions of computer programming languages in S. California.

Here's a web site that should give you some leads on the names that you mentioned.

flow.... :)

tracing the journey

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:29 pm
by Elizabeth Helen Drake
Thank you flowperson for that summary which according to my records and research is basically correct. Paul has been contacted by one ( actually two) of Beaus daughters and early in the forum thread they responded to some of our " Missing" Queries.

According to Suzette Kitselman her Dad had sort of a " blow out" withL.Ron Hubbard after that man explained his plan to charge for the various levels of " enlightenment" he was offering. According to Suzette, Mr. Kitselman escorted that fellow to his door at the Kitselman family home. . And the inference is that his door wasn't opened to Hubbard again.

You did well mentioning Pyramid Ranch which was owned by Kitselman for awhile ..... this was the age when you could spend six months in Nevada and be awarded the residency requirements which would make a " quick" divorce possible. I understand that the ranch was host to many weathly eastern women going through the process.

Just adding a little bit to the research that you all are doing. Thank you so much for the effort.

From what I understand Townsend Brown considered Beau Kitselman a rare and trusted friend and a genius of his age. Elizabeth

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:53 pm
by kevin.b
Elizabeth Helen Drake, Aloha,
Next little route, Hawayo Takata.
Good job The hobbit in me is well fed.

thank you for that

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:21 pm
by Elizabeth Helen Drake
Thank you for that Navigator.

Yes, I am probably one of the few who knows how much better it is not to have a Hungry Hobbit lurking about! Elizabeth

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:48 pm
by flowperson
Hi Elizabeth...I'm in the middle of a project and thought that he would make a suitable contribution, so I've got my own little folder tucked away. The thing that amazed me about him was that he is so widely quoted on the web for his wisdom sayings. You don't see that very often in this day and age of greed and lust for power.

He even did a translation of the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu in the 30's, something of the sort that I could never attempt. I'd rather stand on the shoulders of giants. He seems to have been a very talented, honest. and spiritual being. Tell his children of my respect for him whenever you're in touch...OK ?


its my hope

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:00 pm
by Elizabeth Helen Drake
Its my hope Flow that his children are reading your words directly from the forum , but I certainly add and agree with your consideration of the man.

It does amaze me that for everything that he did there is just so little actually written about him. It is important to us to reflect Townsend Browns high regard for the man.


Actually...not really

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:29 am
by Trickfox
Way too busy to respond to your request right now. Have to think about it. You can send the book to Paul, but please include the copyright page. Also you have the story abour L Ron and my Dad wrong. Will tell you about that when I can answer this. Take care,

This is the scoop from Suzette Kitselman actually, so Mr. T. do you think you and Dr. Brown might have understood the relationship with L.Ron Hubbard better than Suzette. After all she must have been very young and influenced further by the Hubbard's own protective circle after Dr. Brown's death. perhaps even that chapter needs a more carefull look.

BTW, You will soon obtain the book from Mikado Paul. I think you will get more from the pages of wisdom in it.


getting it wrong updated?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:58 pm
by Elizabeth Helen Drake

Responding to this message from Suzette

"Way too busy to respond to your request right now. Have to think about it. You can send the book to Paul, but please include the copyright page. Also you have the story abour L Ron and my Dad wrong. Will tell you about that when I can answer this. Take care,

And a direct and open message to Suzette,

If we got it wrong Suzette it is because we misinterpreted what was told us by either you or your sister in the very beginnings of this forum. Please correct us as quickly as you can. I will try to look back and edit in that original comment so you can see where we might have taken a wrong turn and set us on the proper path then as quickly as possible. My best regards always, Elizabeth

and here is the update I promised. This is a direct quote from Suzette
. Its a bit down the thread but heres the link
Suzette .... your words.

"Hello! Nice to read about T. Townsend Brown, and his associations with my Dad. I am a daughter of Alva "Beau" Kitselman and Betsy, and would also like to see any photos or documents relating to my family. I remember Commander Brown, and the amazing stuff he was up to! I remember Salvador, was born at Pyramid Lake, and the "Huna" information posted above isn't entirely correct. For the short version about my Dad: Papa did a lot of things. He just couldn't stop learning stuff! Born at Battlecreek, MI on Jan 24, 1914, raised in Muncie, Indiana where his father was in steel. (my Grandad invented the first steel roller skates....put ball bearings in them....but that's another story.) Some anecdotes on Beau Kitselman: Physicist, Mathematician, authority on eastern religions, psychotherapist, author. Studied Sanskrit at Stanford the last year it was offered, and was translating several Sanskrit volumes that were a gift of King Prahadjipok of Siam when he passed away. The Sanskrit does tie in with physics, actually: modern 'discoveries' in physics were actually uncovered in India around 5000 years ago, and some volumes he was translating were on those ancient physics studies. Several colleagues wanted him to publish his findings in Scientific American, but since Papa didn't have a PhD, the magazine wouldn't. Rules! Oh, well. Anyway, he was one of the 'top 5' mathematicians in the US for many years. In the 1960s, (when only weirdos had computers!) he wrote software for the intercontinental ballistic missiles, so that they would readjust their trajectory every 6/10ths of a second, when previously they had readjusted only every 8 seconds. In psychotherapy, he was one of the pioneers of 'insight therapy', which was a precursor to the modern style of cognitive therapy, aka 'talk therapy'. There is a website that incorrectly links his psych work with L. Ron Hubbard. The two had been acquaintances while studying psych, and were discussing their plans in our living room after dinner sometime around 1958. When L. Ron said that he would make his therapy into a religion to avoid paying taxes, and create several different "levels" for his patients to achieve, taking lots of time and costing lots of money, my father escorted Mr. Hubbard to the door. That was the end of their friendship! (Papa didn't like him)..........

Things sometimes, like Chinese whispers, canget misquoted.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:04 pm
by kevin.b
Elizabeth Helen Drake,
I have never seen or read those early postings upon here, and yet I arrived at huna.
Chinese whispers say you velly wise lady.
My hands are in touch with the same principal, if I decide to lay my hands upon anyone , the heat is very noticable.
Read the theory, it can be sent to any point in TIME.

Commander Brown?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:49 pm
by grinder
I feel that I am speaking to you by remote somehow Suzette but I wondered if you could answer this ( I hope) simple question.

You made this comment much earlier and I remember pondering over it then:

" I remember Commander Brown, and the amazing stuff he was up to! "

I am assuming that you met him sometimes in the sixties and so I am thinking that the title you gave him was something that your Dad used to Adress Townsend Brown. But the interesting thing here is ...... Dr. Brown ( actually without the honorary Dr. that we all give him) it should be Mr. Brown ...... was away from the service since 1942. Which I think was before your Dad even met him at Vega? So I wonder why your Dad must have introduced him to you and thought of him himself as " Commander Brown" unless of course in the fullness of your Dads understanding he did hold that rank somehow. Am I making any sense here. Its just an oddity.

I am almost ( almost?) compulsive about this sort ofthing. When I find a "hmmmmm" I pick at it and pick at it and pick at it. grinder

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:40 am
by flowperson
Thanks for that Elizabeth. Of course I deduced what I found regarding Mr. Kitselman and Mr. Hubbard's relationship from bits and pieces on the web. Not always a good or sound idea, but then we're all being forced into this mode by the nature of our times. Thanks again.

And by the way, tell Suzette that my opinions regarding Scientology as a Church were sealed the first time that I drove by one here in Las Vegas and saw a "now hiring" sign in the window. Until then I was open to the possibility of it all being legit.

flow.... :oops:

Commander Brown?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:13 am
by Mark Culpepper
Getting an early start today and finally have a moment to react to some of the things that I have been reading.

Of course you know that you have my ( and my brothers) complete attention when you start talking Adamski and " space Brothers" and good old fifties stuff like that. Like going back to our school years. You pick at things grinder. My brother used to draw that Adamski Scout ship over and over and over. If they had made actual scale models he would have had them hanging from the ceiling. Now learning that Dr. Brown used that exact design and they worked ... well, his dream come true to find that out.

Grinder I think your observation about the title used " Commander Brown" is an excellent one. It might just be a slip between friends but I would guess that Mr. Kitselman was giving Dr. Brown a nod of respect for a rank maybe we don't even really know about. I am still wondering how strong his Navy ties actually were. Having a submarine show up at Catalina. How does one manage that?

That situation about Beckwith and his thoughts about the role that mine sweepers may have played is just way too coincidential. Bird names ... which fits into the " Aviary" mass of material. You could get lost in that material forever and ever.

Griffin. Great that you actually met Dr. Brown. I am jealous and I am looking forward to whatever you decide to write on the subject. I am assuming since you mentioned SRI ( and Dr. Brown talked about it too?) with that sort of strange " astrological comment" is that he was talking about the " remote viewing " program that was there in the late sixties early seventies. Paul has just barely mentioned that but then again he hasn't gotten to that time frame yet either. Interested to see what you both say about that!

And the comment about Beau Kitselman being an early computer expert ( and thats a MAJOR development in guidence systems there which we wouldn't have known about at all without Ms. Kitselmans information) certainly puts a different light on his abilities and his importance to ... would it have been the Navy? Are we talking Polaris subs and missles here? Probably, I would think. Dr. Brown seems wrapped in his love for the Navy even after he apparently " resigned" ( under less than honorable conditions) Now that I know the story even more thanks to Paul I can see that he just moved sideways from one secret military situation to another.
And I am sure that Beau must have had something to do with coding and decoding communications and then again Dr. Brown must have been there also with bells on. ( teamser talk, Lisa tells me. Teams carried bells. If your wagon got in trouble and you needed help from another teamster you had to give up one of your bells. The most bells just meant ... the most competent. ) Little pieces of trivia.

Looking forward REALLY to this next chapter Paul but I know talking about Winterhaven ( I am guessing from what others have said so far) is going to be really tough. Unless we are going back to the Morgan and Linda side of things ... and that might be even tougher! Write Away. MarkC

And then of course there is the " Caroline Group" as Paul calls them with their contacts and their influence. Well, whats new about that? Remember how he got to the Navy Research Lab? He wrote a single letter and BAM ... within a month he was walking in he door in Washington ( from the San Diego Radio School.) Like its been said before. If that was the rest of us, we would still be waiting for a response. There is something REALLY hidden about his association with the Navy. Somebody throw a red flag down and get back to it later.

And the hint to it I think is the fact that Beau Kitselman referred to him as " Commander Brown"

Major show coming up Lisa wants everyone to know. She is going for the gusto with Blinker and word from the barn is that they have a good chance to score higher than ever before. Thank you Linda. MarkC

PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:39 am
by Griffin
Brother Mark-

Trivia is still potential information, and sometimes synchronistically so. What the hell is the bell!? Well… One “bellâ€